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Thread: Shocklands

  1. #1
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    Shocklands

    I've been messing around quite a bit lately, building decks that have the spells it needs but lacking in true dual lands. Is the format in a place where shocklands, as a budget option, could actually work? Even the most aggressive of matchups are rarely won based on 2 damage you do to yourself from fetching a shockland. I know each game is unique, and plenty of races still happen in legacy. However, without a true aggro deck (Delver variants and Maverick are the closest to a 'true' agro deck in legacy, IMHO) in the format, does that 2 life matter? Burn is still a deck, but fairly fringe, and giving up one rarely seen matchup is something I'd be willing to accept in order to play some high-powered spells. I've evaluated my collection lately, and I have tons of competitive cards to build good decks. Then I remember that even 1 dual land is $100 at a minimum, and that's for a heavily played Plateau (the least expensive one, IIRC.) It's really only a matter of time before the dual lands are out of reach for even old timers like me to buy or trade into. I'd like to get some objective discussion going on how bad shocklands are in the format as budget substitutes for true duals.

    Are shocklands really a deal-breaker when it comes to legacy deck building?
    Brainstorm Realist

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    Re: Shocklands

    Depends on the deck I'd think. Would you play Daze?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: Shocklands

    [Heavily biased opinion] Shocklands are absolute trash that add up to nothing more than a slap in the face to anyone who's long time favorite format is the unloved bastard child of the Reserved list. I'd sooner play Chinese fakes at unsanctioned events than bend over and take two from a land. [/Heavily biased opinion]
    When other people do not assert themselves, they may still have something to be proud of, something that they believe is unrivalled, but it is just that they have not got the same vulgarity of throwing their weight about and imposing themselves and their beliefs on other people. - Dunduzu Kalui Chisiza

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  4. #4

    Re: Shocklands

    Of course you can...I run shock lands or rainbow lands almost every week and prize pretty regularly (3-1 prizes). It's certainly no insurmountable hurdle. Sometimes the 2-4 life in the game does cause you to lose of course but if you're OK with this go for it. I wouldn't run them at a gp though or other 5+ round event. My "competitive" deck is reanimator running 4 gemstone mine/4 city of brass/4 mana confluence/2 undiscovered paradise. The 5 colours has benefits too of course to help offset the downsides.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Shocklands

    I honestly would rather run a fetch mana base with heavy emphasis on basics and supplement duals for fast lands. I think the problem is that some of the more powerful card in legacy want basic land types, like Knight of the Reliquary, Daze, Massacre stuff like that. Also in my personal meta blood moonmoon can be pretty prevalent at times. All that said, I've had decent success playing fast lands
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

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  6. #6

    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I honestly would rather run a fetch mana base with heavy emphasis on basics and supplement duals for fast lands. I think the problem is that some of the more powerful card in legacy want basic land types, like Knight of the Reliquary, Daze, Massacre stuff like that. Also in my personal meta blood moonmoon can be pretty prevalent at times. All that said, I've had decent success playing fast lands
    Good point, it's not like you take a list and just swap the duals for shocks. Depends on the deck etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  7. #7

    Re: Shocklands

    Just toss 4x Death's Shadow in your list and suddenly your deck is tier 1! But in all seriousness, #retweet of what kinda said. Maybe it costs you a game or two, but you can still have a solid list with shocks/rainbows!

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    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Good point, it's not like you take a list and just swap the duals for shocks. Depends on the deck etc.
    You do have to take into account that you probably can't play certain things that require specific land types whichwhich sucks, but I've played blue moon recently too a 3-1 with Spirebluff Canals and I played a UB Jace Vryns Prodigy deck with Goryos Vengeance and Darkslick Shores recentlyrecently. It's not ooptimal, but locally or works
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I honestly would rather run a fetch mana base with heavy emphasis on basics and supplement duals for fast lands.
    Nice. Setting aside my bias, I agree. This is actually how I approach my Modern manabases.
    When other people do not assert themselves, they may still have something to be proud of, something that they believe is unrivalled, but it is just that they have not got the same vulgarity of throwing their weight about and imposing themselves and their beliefs on other people. - Dunduzu Kalui Chisiza

    If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo

  10. #10

    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I've been messing around quite a bit lately, building decks that have the spells it needs but lacking in true dual lands. Is the format in a place where shocklands, as a budget option, could actually work? Even the most aggressive of matchups are rarely won based on 2 damage you do to yourself from fetching a shockland. I know each game is unique, and plenty of races still happen in legacy. However, without a true aggro deck (Delver variants and Maverick are the closest to a 'true' agro deck in legacy, IMHO) in the format, does that 2 life matter? Burn is still a deck, but fairly fringe, and giving up one rarely seen matchup is something I'd be willing to accept in order to play some high-powered spells. I've evaluated my collection lately, and I have tons of competitive cards to build good decks. Then I remember that even 1 dual land is $100 at a minimum, and that's for a heavily played Plateau (the least expensive one, IIRC.) It's really only a matter of time before the dual lands are out of reach for even old timers like me to buy or trade into. I'd like to get some objective discussion going on how bad shocklands are in the format as budget substitutes for true duals.

    Are shocklands really a deal-breaker when it comes to legacy deck building?
    You want to play some games where you start at 16 to their 20? Be my guest.

  11. #11
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    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    You want to play some games where you start at 16 to their 20? Be my guest.
    Sarcasm aside, I don't think it makes that much difference, as long as I'm at 1 when you're at 0. I know that in a competitive setting (GP) that every point of life counts and having the best possible odds of optimum deck performance is the best approach. I just think that it isn't as crucial as it used to be when Burn, Zoo, and other agro decks were much more prevalent. Do I lose the game any harder for being at 18 life against Show and Tell than at 20? I think you know the answer to that. Your response stinks of pompous douchebaggery.

    @Megadeus: I also use fastlands, which are typically fine. In turbo depths I have a misers Bayou and instead of Overgrown Tombs I use 2x Blooming Marsh. It's fine most of the time and I'm fetching basics quite often anyways. I figured most legacy mana-bases are incredibly fetch heavy. When you have a ton of fetches it becomes pretty easy to do 2 colors, almost with basics alone, and a handful of budget dual lands (fastlands, 2x shocklands.)

    Honestly, I'm looking for something that I haven't seen yet, some unknown downside that I haven't thought of yet. There is at least one obvious upside (Death's Shadow) but I don't think that kind of situation will pop up that much.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  12. #12
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    Re: Shocklands

    Shocklands are absolute trash that add up to nothing more than a slap in the face to anyone who's long time favorite format is the unloved bastard child of the Reserved list. I'd sooner play Chinese fakes at sanctioned events than bend over and take two from a land.

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    Re: Shocklands

    I mean when it comes to larger sanctioned events I would just borrow the cards I don't have. I'm am blessed to know multiple people that are willing to lend me 4k in cardboard though and I know it's not always that easy. Like I said locally screw it play whatwhat you got. I just would hate to join an SCG or Grand Prix and lose simply because of a sub optimal mana base
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  14. #14

    Re: Shocklands

    Build your deck around it and it`s not a problem.
    I started playing BR Reanimator with a shock land base and of course sometimes it would give me some trouble but most of the times I would go for a basic Swamp anyway.
    I think it is more important to just play Legacy and have some fun with this great format for as long as we can, be it with Duals or Shocks, who gives a fuck just play and have fun.

  15. #15
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    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Like I said locally screw it play whatwhat you got. I just would hate to join an SCG or Grand Prix and lose simply because of a sub optimal mana base
    Yeah, I understand this. If entry is $40 bucks or more, I'd want to be putting my best foot forward. Otherwise you could just give the money to your Burn opponent.

  16. #16

    Re: Shocklands

    It's going to depend on what the deck is trying to do. Actually, I think the 2 basic land duals have some potential alongside some filter lands in a deck that's two colors.

  17. #17
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    Re: Shocklands

    When compared to true dual lands, you're at a huge disadvantage if you're substituting them with shocklands. You could be shaving an entire turn or two off of your game. That's enough of a deal-breaker for me to not consider them in competitive play.
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  18. #18

    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by Jander78 View Post
    When compared to true dual lands, you're at a huge disadvantage if you're substituting them with shocklands. You could be shaving an entire turn or two off of your game. That's enough of a deal-breaker for me to not consider them in competitive play.
    While I don't think you're wrong and wouldn't bring shocks to a gp or scg main event myself I think the idea of focusing on the shocks is silly (Also not sure if you're counting local 3-5 rounds events as 'competitive play'). Unless you're showing up with the deck you are confident has the best chance chance to win in the room, plus you've thoroughly playtested it, and you have a detailed sb plan etc. you're lowering your chances to win in a few different ways. It's just that with shocks it's obvious why you lost, while no one goes 'man I was one win from top 8ing the last two events...I really should have run brainstorm'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  19. #19
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    Re: Shocklands

    Good discussion all, I appreciate it.

    My biggest reason for posting the thread is to understand that true duals are literally the biggest roadblock to people getting into legacy. I am slowly building up staples for decks I want to play (Force of Will, Jace, etc.) but the majority of cards in Legacy are affordable, especially if they cross over from Modern. Most modern players have fetchlands, which are the more important half of the fetch/dual manabase. If shocklands aren't competitive the same as true duals (or some new land that is just as effective) I think the writing really is on the wall for legacy going the way of vintage (fewer events, fewer people playing, overall just a lower quality community/scene.)
    Brainstorm Realist

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  20. #20

    Re: Shocklands

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    but the majority of cards in Legacy are affordable, especially if they cross over from Modern.
    "Affordable"
    Magic isn't affordable at any constructed level. Accept your wealth and play accordingly.

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