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Thread: [Deck] 5c Humans

  1. #21

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Tomik, Distinguished Advokist is going to be a great addition, although space is tight.

    Stops (only your opponent's):
    Wasteland, Rishadan Port, the Lands Deck, Depths, the Lands deck, Karakas, Life from the Loam, Ramunap, Crucible of Worlds. All of that is very good for a deck composed entirely of non-basics, relying on Karakas heavily in certain matches, dependent on Thalia not getting bounced by Karakas in other matches, and on the losing end of Depths decks.

    Also, hugely relevant: 2/3 and flying. Woot.

  2. #22

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Has anyone tried doing party humans? Champion of the parish is arguably the best card in the deck and Archpriest of Iona is another champion if you squint. After lots of theory crafting I can up with the below:

    You lose a lot of the toolbox angle (no good disruptive warriors) but imo maverick does that better anyways. The deck is essentially zoo (12 Savannah lions) but hopefully lords plus better disruption makes it viable. Since you aren’t tutoring specific lock pieces recruiter/noble/mom become less important. Compared to stock the deck is less flexible but it should be more consistent (redundancy plus better mana) at killing people really fast.


    4 Silent Clearing
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Ancient Ziggurat
    4 Unclaimed Territory
    1 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    3 Scrubland

    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Archpriest of Iona
    4 Bloodstained Champion
    4 Vial

    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Thalia’s Lieutenant
    4 Meddling Mage
    4 Acquisition Expert

    2 General Kudro
    2 Orzhov Pontiff
    1 Reflector Mage
    1 Sigrid, God-Favoured



    Card choices:
    4 Archpriest over noble. Premise of the list is that more champions is better than the ramp plus toolbox package
    4 Aquisition Expert over freebooter. Side grade, but a rogue. Actual 2 for 1 is nice vs fair decks, but can be weaker vs combo and doesn’t fly.
    4 Bloodchief’s over mom. Not as good as mom vs decks with removal, but we don’t have freebooter or tutor targets to protect anymore. Much better vs uninteractive decks, and still has a anti-removal ability that doesn’t require it to untap.
    Sigridi is basically reflector mage #2, but a warrior. Better vs marit lage.
    Lords over recruiter. The deck is based on the premise that more champions are good, so it’s an aggro deck more than a toolbox deck.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Getting a full party seems like a pipe dream in Legacy with spot removal or Terminus making it too easy to attack your party count. It's questionable how often it will be any better than Isamaru, Hound of Konda, and the floor is even worse than Isamaru.

    14 Soldiers don't help. Soldier isn't one of the types, and some of the best cards in the deck are Soldiers. On an empty board or with Soldiers, it's a vanilla 1/2.

    Ranger-Captain of Eos/Recruiter of the Guard is your extra Champions.

  4. #24

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Hmm. Traditional aggro decks are quite bad in legacy for sure, but slivers puts up results without mom or hierarch. They have better lords but this deck should have better disruption vs combo.

    In the past year we have seen hexdrinker in rug/maverick and kytheon in Lurrus white weenie. It made me think that maybe Savannah lions with upside are playable nowadays. The card doesn’t need to have party, it just needs to be a 3/2 half the time. Agent is fine as a burglar rat in fair matchups where freebooter was likely to be removed in response.

    Champion is also a 1/1 or Isamaru unless you have multiple other creatures. With no flicker effects terminus affects both equally. I guess it is vulnerable to removal on the other cards but it is a better top deck (immediately a 2/2 or 3/2 instead of needing to build up). Champion over noble and Bloodchief over mom does also reduces your vulnerability to plague engineer, which may be more common than terminus.

    Edit: dark confident may be better than general kudro if I am worried about having too many soldiers.

  5. #25
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Archpriest of Iona is a 1/2 on its own, not a 2/1 or 2/2.

    A vanilla 1/2-2/2 with no abilities is pretty bad. Not worth changing the rest of the deck to accomodate the party mechanic. There are 4 Rogues, 5 Warriors, 5 Wizards? Most creatures in the deck don't contribute to the party count, so you could have 3-4 bodies and it could still be a 1/2. The ceiling is probably a 3/2 in practice, much less than half the time. Getting all 4 will be very rare and easily answered by taking out 1.

    Champion at least threatens to get bigger with every creature in the deck and stays big if the other card is removed. Archpriest only gets bigger if you play certain scarce cards in the right order and shrinks if they are removed. The conditions under which it's big are much rarer. Goldfish a few games a see the size in practice. T1 Archpriest, T2 Thalia, T3 Orzhov/or Champion+Thalia2 and it's still a 1/2.

    Aggro humans might be possible, but Archpriest and party looks worse than Kytheon and other stuff that's good on its own.

  6. #26

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    So based on your feedback and my goldfishing. I think can make it a consistent 3/2 on t3. Soldiers are obviously bad, but I didn’t realize that you want creature types your party payoffs are not (because if it matters, you have them and thus their types)

    Now I have have 4 rogues 4 clerics (expert plus Archpriest only. If you don’t have any of these it doesn’t matter) 5 warriors (4 bloodchief/1 sigrid god-favoured) 5 wizards (4 meddling mage/1 reflector mage) 4 wildcards (4 unmoored Mariner). Hyper geometric distribution for at least 2 in 8 looks at 18/60 = 77%. (5 2)+(5 2) + (4 2)/(18 2) tells us 14% of the time you will have a double of 1 type. Which means an overall chance of 66%. The list above with extra clerics and soldiers is quite a bit worse as you noticed. This doesn’t take into account needing to play out your soldiers before other cards in your hand or mulligans but it is a good start.

    The fact that you can play it after the disruptive creatures I think is quite strong and makes up for its other issues.
    T1 champion, t2 mage, t3 Archpriest -> expert is stronger than t3 champion into freebooter.

  7. #27
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Oh yeah, if you change the entire deck to be only party creatures it changes the odds. I was working off the list you posted. The underlying tension is a lot of the best cards in Humans are not any of the party types, they're Soldiers. So you could either have a suboptimal party deck full of Soldiers that don't work with Archpriest, or you could replace the Soldiers but risk running overall lower card quality to have the right tribes. Then you might influence your curve out decisions based on tribe rather than what's best to play that turn. Champion wants to be played T1 and Thalia wants to be played T2, so a lot of the Soldiers want to come down early and would affect the aggressive speed of Archpriest.

    Does aggro even want a 1-drop that's a 3/2 on turn 3 but weak on turn 1? Would it be better to just run a card that always hits for 2 no matter what and can be played on turn 1? Kytheon and Blood Champion seem like better 1 drops. Much higher floor.

    If you want to push party, Dark Confidant might help as a Human Wizard that digs for gas. Just increasing the tribe counts seems good.

  8. #28

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Hmm I still am running all the Thalias, lieutenants and champions. So I would say it’s more on the suboptimal party deck side. Mage you were playing already. Expert is essentially freebooters. The major downgrades I did were recruiter plus anti combo bullets to Mariner and mom to bloodstained champion. Champion of the parish also asks you to contort your curve out if you have 2 as well.

    It could not be good enough but it seems worth investigating if improved clock, mana base, and plague engineer resistance is worth the lower floor cards.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Hmm I still am running all the Thalias, lieutenants and champions. So I would say it’s more on the suboptimal party deck side. Mage you were playing already. Expert is essentially freebooters. The major downgrades I did were recruiter plus anti combo bullets to Mariner and mom to bloodstained champion. Champion of the parish also asks you to contort your curve out if you have 2 as well.

    It could not be good enough but it seems worth investigating if improved clock, mana base, and plague engineer resistance is worth the lower floor cards.
    This is the list I was playing last October:

    Pretty much a true swarm deck.
    Mariner is fine. But I think Safekepeer is above (by far). I aslo consider Keeper > MoR in an aggro/swarm deck (Keeper also attacks where MoR just stands still). Not to mention the synergy you have with Trokair.
    Also leading with Vial on T1 followed by T2 Parish with Safekeeper in hand and vial @1 is a blowout.
    Mimic is a concession to Plague engineer.
    Even though I am not a fan of "bullets" in an aggro deck, you need to have some ways to deal with problematic permanents. Hence, 2 recruiter + 2 Apparition + 1 Pontiff. That covers your base.
    Finally you need GAS in a swarm deck. Bob is there and does turn the tides (Mayor also sometimes does nasty tricks especially on clogged boards).


    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Thalia's Lieutenant
    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Metallic Mimic
    2 Mayor of Avabruck
    2 Skyclave Apparition
    2 Imperial Recruiter
    1 Orzhov Pontiff

    1 Mother of Runes

    4 Swords to Plowshares

    4 Aether Vial

    2 Gemstone Mine
    3 Mana Confluence
    4 Cavern of Souls
    2 Unclaimed Territory
    2 Karakas
    3 Plains
    2 Horizon Canopy
    2 Flagstones of Trokair


    SB: 1 Plague Engineer
    SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
    SB: 3 Meddling Mage
    SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
    SB: 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
    SB: 1 Barrin, Tolarian Archmage
    SB: 1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
    SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
    SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

  10. #30

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    If we are cutting wasteland and mom, maybe this is a better fit for modern. The aggro elements matter more there and having combo disruption/bullets matters less.

  11. #31
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    If we are cutting wasteland and mom, maybe this is a better fit for modern. The aggro elements matter more there and having combo disruption/bullets matters less.
    As I said earlier in this thread, you have to choose your path.
    Either you play sort of an aggro/control deck or a swarm one.

    In Swarm slivers you don't play wasteland. You do in Tempo Slivers.

    The difference might be tiny but it is there. You cannot waste ressources (pun intended) in a swarm deck. Numbers do matter.

    Also the more color you add in your deck the less wasteland you'll be able to play.

  12. #32

  13. #33

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    What was the thought about solitude vs reflector mage/Sigrid/plow?

    Esper sentinel really likes additional lords, and you are running pontiff in the board anyways. Is meddling mage that much better than freebooter that it isn’t worth playing WB?

  14. #34

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    What was the thought about solitude vs reflector mage/Sigrid/plow?

    Esper sentinel really likes additional lords, and you are running pontiff in the board anyways. Is meddling mage that much better than freebooter that it isn’t worth playing WB?
    Solitude is easier to explain: no mana, no Vial? No problem (as long as you have any W spell in hand with it).

    Lords with Sentinel are indeed great, but I am pushing the mana cost as low as possible and there just aren't that many. Honestly, with a UW build, maybe Phantasmal Image comes in??

    MM is just a complete shutdown against a card, especially good vs. combo, but perfectly serviceable against control, since Mom plus MM on Terminus can be a pretty reasonable shutdown. If Freebooter exiled like Apparition, I could see a case for it, but not when it is a very fragile Banishing Light (not even O-Ring good...)

  15. #35

  16. #36

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Have you tried brutal cathar over reflector mage?

  17. #37
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Have you tried brutal cathar over reflector mage?
    No, but I certainly will.
    Magic was on the backburner during the time Strixhaven and D&D were released and I still have to catch up on those sets.
    Thanks for pointing this card out.

    Do I understand this correct that Brutal Cathar can exile a creature every time night turns back into day ?

  18. #38

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Do I understand this correct that Brutal Cathar can exile a creature every time night turns back into day ?
    My understanding is that Brutal Cathar does re-exile every time it flips to day. The possibility to steal 2 things is why I think it’s better than previous human banisters priests like Sigrid, God Favoured. The ward and first strike are also really good at annoying the opponent if they try to get the card back.

    One thing I didn’t realize though is that if it is nighttime it will enter as the backside and you won’t get any etb exile. It also isn’t a human on the backside.

  19. #39

    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    The swarm list I am currently brewing is below.

    The thought behind the deck is twofold: esper sentinel is an extremely powerful human if it can be paired with a lord and Rick is an insane lord if you consistently get to 4 humans.

    By being very conservative on colours you can afford to play a few mutavault which really helps getting to 4 humans. Black gives you the best extra lords (orzhov pontiff and general kudro) and freebooter has only 1 coloured pip instead meddling mage’s 2. With the printing of brutal cathar the single target removal isn’t that much worse than reflector mage. Since we don’t have hierarch I cut the toolbox elements to go faster.


    4 Silent Clearing
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Scrubland
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    2 Mutavault
    3 Plains

    4 Champion of the Parish
    4 Esper Sentinel
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Vial

    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Thalia’s Lieutenant
    4 Kitesail Freebooter

    3 General Kudro
    2 Orzhov Pontiff
    4 Brutal Cathar

    2 Rick, Steadfast Leader


    Edit: Just realized karakas can help you flip brutal cathar
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 11-02-2021 at 02:16 PM.

  20. #40
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    Re: [Deck] 5c Humans

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Just realized karakas can help you flip brutal cathar
    Yes, and Norin the Wary is its best friend.
    BTW shouldn't this card be in Humans anyway ?
    Once he's in play he's almost unremovable and he keeps flickering in every turn, also opponent's turn, and keeps adding counters to the champion and lieutenant.
    You need like a plague engineer in play to finish him lol.
    But ... you can use karakas on him. Seems like ... perfect ?
    Last edited by Borg; 11-04-2021 at 10:12 AM.

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