I was having an interesting discussion at the card shop with some buddies about some sequencing and thought I would open it up for more discussion.
We've won the die roll game 1 against an unknown opponent.
Four of our opening 7 are: swamp, dark ritual, hymn to tourach and a thoughtseize.
We play swamp, cast dark ritual with three black floating.
Now the question becomes, do we Hymn first or cast the thoughtseize? What do you think and explain why?
If you think hymn is the correct first play, does that logic change if instead of a thoughtseize you also have a duress or inquisition of kozilek?
This depends on some things you haven't included, for instance:
- What deck are you playing? (I assume it's something like Pox, but you could ask a similar question with respect to something like BUG by changing the prompt to, "Do you Thoughtseize or do something else T1 against an unknown deck if your T2 play will be a hymn?")
- What else is in your hand?
In the abstract, I think it makes sense to Thoughtseize first, because if it's turn one, you'll increase the chances that the Hymn hits a land or two, which Thoughtseize cannot do. I think the same thing is true for IoK and duress, for the same reasons.
Also, if you Thoughtseize, and the opponent has something like Force of Will, it forces them to decide if they want to 2 for 1 to protect their other cards from the thoughtseize, and if they do that, your 2 for 1 (in hymn) becomes even more impactful.
I would 100% play Thoughtseize before Hymn. I don't like taking the chance that Thoughtseize (or Duress, or Inquisition) whiffs. Not only that, I may find that my opponent is banking on one particular card and the rest of their hand is garbage without it. Honestly I probably wouldn't even play the Dark Ritual (in the dark, lol) on t1 unless I had something back-breaking to resolve after it. In the dark, Hymn isn't always a great card. Perfect information is always relevant.
I would sequence it this way:
t1- Swamp, Thoughtseize >>> learn my matchup
If I know my matchup, then I would play t1 - Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach (again, depending on matchup.)
It really boils down to the fact that you're playing Pox, right? I mean, there are literally no other decks that play Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, and Hymn to Tourach together. Holding a Dark Ritual for black-intensive spells is definitely a consideration if you have 2 swamps t2 to just naturally curve into Hymn to Tourach. Regardless of other lands, you can then play a t3 Liliana of the Veil/Last Hope/Nether Void/Sinkhole, etc.
There was quite a discussion around Dark Ritual about a month back or so in the Pox thread. Might be worth checking that out and hashing some of those arguments here.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Oh god the flashback.
I'll agree there's a bit lacking in the setup that lets us go anywhere we want with the answer.
But assuming we're playing Pox and we're on the play against an unknown, it's Swamp into Thoughtseize.
If we know they have counter-magic or they lead blue source and we're on the draw, it's Swamp into Thoughtseize.
If we know they don't have counter-magic, like Plains into AEther Vial or they stormed us out game 1, then I'd argue Hymn first then Thoughtseize.
It's the play that let's us control their hand to the best of our ability, guaranteeing they start their turn with the worst combination of cards.
Only caveat is Lands though, since in all other instances whiffing on Thoughtseize because they kept double Brainstorm and were hoping to shuffle away and they got nailed by the Hymn, well I think you'll do alright.
As others have said it's a really Pox specific question though, so this is answered in that mindset.
I wonder if OP saw the same thread recently that I did (its an older one but I somehow stumbled on it regardless):
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...mn_to_tourach/
there seems to be a lot of support for hymn first, and it seems like the argument is that after (assuming) hymn resolves, you then can take the best card based on what remains, ie this might not be the best card pre-hymn if you play thoughtsieze first. I'm guessing if the hand contains, say, 3 lands, and hymn strips 2 of them, you can safely (?) ignore any off color cards they can't play now and grab the most relevant remaining. I'm a fan of thoughtsize first to make sure the biggest threat is removed and whatever hymn gets, hymn gets. But i'm still a little green from a competitive level and look forward to the arguments either way.
I've always been on the TS first planplan in the first time this discussion was brought up. It clears the path for hymn to resolve or ofif they force it then you get a 4 for 3 with the follow up hymn. Also the argument that maybe your opponent is on Dredge and you want to hit like a careful study or a looting, but don't want to accidently hit a grave troll
Keep in mind that there's always the possibility against a control deck (like Miracles) where an option for them is to Force your Hymn if it's played first in order to protect lands and nullify your Thoughtseize. One of the defining characteristics of any Pox deck is to attack opponents' resources, so if you lead with Hymn - which is random - a Force can stop you from hitting lands and make Thoughtseize dead thereafter if their hand has no other gas.
But if you lead with Thoughtseize, you strip away Force and then have the opportunity to hit two lands and cripple them. Also remember that any opponent keeping a hand with Force/blue card and five lands probably either has a reason to do so, or just needs to mulligan a little more aggressively. Under those circumstances, you could argue that the order doesn't really matter and that you would let both resolve and they'd want to just play to the top of their deck.
if you're against blue, it might be worth going hymn first since they might FoW and keep one card left to get back into the game. then thoughtseize could take that.
if you're playing against something where you really need to hit their lands (like a pox deck), then thoughtseize first is prob better.
-rob
Right on; I was thinking the same, what if Hymn makes your TS whiff? Thoughtseize first gives you the highest probability of actually nabbing 3 cards, which is a 2-for-3, which is card advantage. What I don't like is leading with Dark Ritual at all. It isn't necessary and has some risk. And if you do Dark Ritual first, it's 3-for-3. Doing that on t1 can be devastating in the tempo sense, but not always.
Again, I really like this. Play to the best effect. The worst outcome with TS first is you only get 2 lands with Hymn, which is perfectly fine. I would argue that if all they have are lands, and they aren't playing Lands, save your Hymn for when their hand is smaller. If possible, utilize those early 'safe' turns to advance another part of your game plan (Cursed Scroll, Liliana, get some Factories down, etc.)But if you lead with Thoughtseize, you strip away Force and then have the opportunity to hit two lands and cripple them. Also remember that any opponent keeping a hand with Force/blue card and five lands probably either has a reason to do so, or just needs to mulligan a little more aggressively. Under those circumstances, you could argue that the order doesn't really matter and that you would let both resolve and they'd want to just play to the top of their deck.
If the scenario gets further detailed like 2 other cards are Mishra's Factory and Bitterblossom, I would much rather play a t2 Bitterblossom than a turn 2 Hymn (again, dependant on matchup, I could just die to storm or other fast combo.) With Dark Ritual in the mix you could actually do both, so rather than burning a t1 Dark Ritual you can stall with a TS, see their hand, and then have close to perfect information that leads to the best outcome.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Thoughtseize first. If they have force, you're looking to nab 4 cards and mull them to 3 (getting you to +1 cards in the process). If they don't cast force you still get to nab it so the hymn will resolve.
Also, if they happen to be on dredge, seizing first is the right play so you'll know to cancel out of casting that follow-up hymn.
If they don't have force, and are not on dredge, I don't think it really matters: The difference of it mattering, mathematically, is less than five percent. However if you want to hit lands hymn second, seize first.
So you're playing an unknown deck like in the scenario, I would seize first.
Thanks for all the excellent advice! Some points were brought up I hadn't yet considered... Seems like the most important takeaways are:
Are we playing against lands or dredge?
Are we playing against combo, and if so do they have FOW?
In general I'd prefer to lead with Hymn. If you lead with Thoughtseize you have to make a decision of what to take without knowing what the Hymn is going to take, it adds a random chance for your decision to be wrong. If you Thoughtseize after the Hymn then you're working with full information.
Of course if you're just trying to cheese someone's lands with Hymn, then yes playing Thoughtseize first and taking a card will give Hymn a higher chance to hit a land.
Two random cards is arguably worse than one particular card, and it's a strong argument. There's a reason why people (not me, I like to live dangerously) shy away from Cabal Therapy as their targeted discard, even though it's objectively more powerful than Inquisition or Duress: they don't want the possibility of missing and therefore giving up a percentage of playing a perfect game. That theory applies to a card like Hymn, which can randomly win you the game or just as easily randomly lose you the game. Thoughtseize will always have the best effect t1, I am convinced of that. You have the most cards you'll likely see from your opponent, you have the greatest chance to slow down their game plan, and you can map out early critical turns. Your scenario gives a margin for error, even though you 'know' which cards Hymn will take. There is at least a small chance that you shouldn't cast the Hymn at all where there is a close to zero chance you wouldn't want to play TS turn 1 to plan your game.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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