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Thread: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

  1. #1

    Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    I want to discuss the newly spoiled card from Ravnica Allegiance...

    Lavinia, Azorius Renegade UW
    Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
    Each opponent can't cast non creature spells with converted mana cost greater than the number of lands that player controls.
    Whenever an opponent casts a spell, if no mana was spent to cast it, counter that spell.
    2/2

    List of cards it counters...
    Force of Will
    Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal/LED
    Omniscience
    Miracles
    Belcher Decks
    Past in Flames/Gifts Ungiven/Empty the Warrens
    Cloudpost/Ancient Tomb/Eldrazi Temple/Metalworker/Spirit Guide/Dark Ritual/Seething Song if theyíre not casting a creature with that mana

    Itís a shame it doesnít hit Show and Tell or Sneak Attack.

    I think it might be decent as a sideboard card in Miracles for the mirror and combo matchups? Or is it too narrow to see play?

  2. #2
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    It kind of hits Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, really any sol land deck in general I suppose.
    So not a hard stop, but turn 2 Sneak Attack off Volcanic, Petal, and Tomb is threatened. And turn 4 Sneak Attack is really slow for them.
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Like the ability, hate that it's not symmetrical and that it's blue.
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  4. #4

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    It is a nonbo with Thalia.

  5. #5

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    It certainly feels very strong.

    Itís like damping sphere but on a 10 turn clock. Iíve a feeling that for most decks it fits, it doesnít replace anything that they already run.
    It certainly is a small pain to deal with, but certainly not OP (I hope). Iím just trying to figure out if itís a naindeckable and what shell it fits in. Miracles? Dnt? Humans?


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  6. #6

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Seems like it could share a deck with Spell Queller or Possibility Storm.

  7. #7
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    It also stops flashback Therapy, Fireblast, Suspend cards, and hits a fair number of cards in Infect
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Seems like it could share a deck with Spell Queller or Possibility Storm.
    There's also Knowledge Pool to lock down the opponent except for Supreme Verdict, Abrupt Decay and Karakas.

    That said, I wonder how she would play with Land Tax, given that it can stunt the land development of the opponent quite a bit.
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  9. #9

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    It sure reads impressively the first time through, but ultimately I don't think it will see much legacy play. If you want an anti-combo hatebear, Cannonist, Meddling Mage, and Thalia (if you aren't blue stewing) should all be stronger as they slow down combo's ability to dig for an answer. This needs to be maindeckable to see play. It hits force, daze, and sol lands out of non-combo decks. Unfortunately, I don't think that's enough as force and daze are often sideboarded out against fair blue midrange.

    Vintage though... It hits all the mana rocks all the time plus misstep and force aren't things you can sideboard out as easily. It might even be serviceable against Shops on the play. Seems like a stong reason to pick up white.

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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Because why not give Miracles more toys they might (someday, maybe) use?

    Card doesn't do much that the other hate-bears don't, but it does pitch to Force. Sideboard superstar on a good day.
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  11. #11

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    I wrote that it is a nonbo with Thalia but it seems nobody think it is relevant so I might just explain.

    Free non-creature spells are not free anymore with Thalia in play because they cost 1 generic : Lavinia doesn't counter those spells anymore and you are sad.

    Edit :
    Not sure that free spell like Gitaxian Probe are free because you actually pay phyrexian mana with 2 life : Lavinia doesn't counter Gitaxian Probe or Surgical Extraction if I'm not wrong.

  12. #12
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagehisa View Post
    Not sure that free spell like Gitaxian Probe are free because you actually pay phyrexian mana with 2 life : Lavinia doesn't counter Gitaxian Probe or Surgical Extraction if I'm not wrong.
    Nix would counter Gitaxian Probe paid with life, so I see no reason why Lavinia wouldn't as well.
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  13. #13

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    A phyrexian cost can be paid with life or mana. If you pay with life, you didn't pay it with mana. Therefore: Nix'd.

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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagehisa View Post
    Edit :
    Not sure that free spell like Gitaxian Probe are free because you actually pay phyrexian mana with 2 life : Lavinia doesn't counter Gitaxian Probe or Surgical Extraction if I'm not wrong.
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  15. #15

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Thank you guys, you are right.

    Protips accepted and I can tell the whole human world I don't perfectly know the rules of a cardboard game and have an excellent day :D

    The rules of Magic for free ?!! but I thought I could not have the rules of Magic for free with Lavinia in play ? Ohhh I'm so confused now !! Please I need more uncounterable/non-free protips from my fellow magicians !

  16. #16
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    My initial thoughts on seeing this card were that it would probably just be slid in as a 2-4 of in existing miracle decks, however, in regards to treating this card as a one-sided chalice for zero plus some other stuff on legs, I was brainstorming building a deck from bottom up.

    The first deck building fork was whether to run this card alongside Chalice itself or by itself. Going along the latter path for now a blue white base is already pretty well developed:

    4 FOW
    4 Brainstorm
    4 STP
    4 Ponder
    4 Snapcaster
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    20 Lands

    Leaving us with only really 22 cards to differentiate this UW deck from existing UW decks.

    The thought is that if we slide in 4 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, we should also slide in 4 wastelands in order to provide land control which helps lavania become even more effective. That leaves us with 14 cards to consider.

    The next thought is that Lavania is most effective, just like Chalice, Turn 1 - unlike chalice we can't just play the 8 SOL lands, and will have to play some other mana accel. To have above a 20% chance of a turn one Lavania (without a mulligan) we need to run at least 6 accel pieces. We are already running 24 lands at this point so we can probably afford 2-3 Mox diamonds, and we can use Lotus Petals for the other pieces. That leaves us 8 cards. That is enough for a SFM package and gives us 2 flex spots. So:

    Path 1 Lavinia Deck:

    4 FOW
    4 Brainstorm
    4 STP
    4 Ponder
    2 Flex Spots
    1 Batterskull
    1 Jitte

    4 Snapcaster
    4 SFM
    4 Lavinia
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    20 Lands
    4 Wasteland
    3 Mox Diamond
    3 Lotus Petal

    The Second path that I considered was running Lavinia with Chalice. A Chalice Shell is at the very least smaller than the a UW shell:

    4 Chalice
    8 Sol Lands

    Then, as before we are running 4 Lavinia with the expectation of getting her out turn 1. I would think we would want a greater percentage of getting her out turn 1 than the Path 1 deck, so we should run at least 8 Accel options. Assuming we will have 24-25 Lands in the deck we can run 4 Chrome Mox and 4 Lotus Petal. That leaves us about 15 cards to consider. Theorertically we have the choice of trying to pick all blue cards so that we can run FOW, or whether we just end up choosing the 19 best U/W cards (going three color will be hard due to the tortuted mana base). Essentially, the question is whether we want SFM or FOW. I think this is an easy choice as the best blue cards are blocked by the Chalice we are also running. So going the SFM route (6 cards) we will have a 13 Open spots. Those 13 spots should be something that can take advantage of the 8 Sol lands we run. I am leaving them blank for now as I have no idea.

    Path 2 Lavinia Deck:

    13 Flex Spots
    4 Chalice
    1 Batterskull
    1 Jitte

    4 Lavinia
    4 SFM

    8 Sol Lands
    4 Waste Land
    13 Lands
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal

    Clearly Path 1 is more developed than Path 2. Path 2 can hardly said to be developed at all with 13 spots missing, but I think these are the two forms a potential Lavinia deck could take (again, Lavinia deck, not a deck that runs Lavinia, which is what I expect to happen).

  17. #17

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    It's been said before, but I think Lavinia fits best into a Bant/Vial/Ernhamgeddon build.

    4x Noble Hierarch
    3x SfM
    4x Lavinia
    3x Snapcaster
    1x Ramunap
    1x Knight of Autumn
    3x GSZ

    3x StP
    4x Armageddon
    4x Brainstorm
    2x Ponder
    4x FoW
    2x Jace
    1x Batterskull
    1x Jitte/SoFI/whatever

    4x Flagstones
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Tundra
    2x Savannah
    2x Tropical
    1x Island
    1x Plains
    1x Dryad
    4x Wasteland

    Or I dunno, something along those lines. I think there's some vial bant and blue Maverick lists around to base off of. But GSZ/Ramunap/Armaggedon/Lavinia plus stuff like the blue shell is a strong, strong setup. At least potentially.

  18. #18
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    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    It's been said before, but I think Lavinia fits best into a Bant/Vial/Ernhamgeddon build.

    4x Noble Hierarch
    3x SfM
    4x Lavinia
    3x Snapcaster
    1x Ramunap
    1x Knight of Autumn
    3x GSZ

    3x StP
    4x Armageddon
    4x Brainstorm
    2x Ponder
    4x FoW
    2x Jace
    1x Batterskull
    1x Jitte/SoFI/whatever

    4x Flagstones
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Tundra
    2x Savannah
    2x Tropical
    1x Island
    1x Plains
    1x Dryad
    4x Wasteland

    Or I dunno, something along those lines. I think there's some vial bant and blue Maverick lists around to base off of. But GSZ/Ramunap/Armaggedon/Lavinia plus stuff like the blue shell is a strong, strong setup. At least potentially.
    No Knight of the Reliquary? It can accel out an Armageddon if needed (bonus points for grabbing a Flagstone), grab Wastelands (or a single GQ for Ranunap shenanigans) for normal mana denial and grows alot with Geddon.
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  19. #19

    Re: Single Card Discussion: Lavinia, Azorius Renegade

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    No Knight of the Reliquary? It can accel out an Armageddon if needed (bonus points for grabbing a Flagstone), grab Wastelands (or a single GQ for Ranunap shenanigans) for normal mana denial and grows alot with Geddon.
    Good point, should definitely include a bunch of KotR. I just kinda threw it together tbh.

    EDIT: since Lavinia is one sided, you could also throw As Foretold in there too, but I dunno if you'd want to.

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