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Thread: Buried Phoenix

  1. #81
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Dark rit into ensnaring Bridge seems very strong vs. Depths in the mentor version. At least while no one is expecting it. Plus it's solid vs others like reanimator/snt/eldrazi.
    True. It wouldn't work vs Reanimator, if they get Griselbrand into play they'll get Tidespout/Ashen Rider, but could work vs Snt and Eldrazi too. Just about crazy enough to try!
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  2. #82
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Ensnaring Bridge is also on my short list of cards I want to try. I really liked it in the SB of Mentor Miracles, when all the Entreat lists were playing Moat against the then new Eldrazi deck.

    Regarding general boarding plans: Against Sneak Show and ANT, I tend to take out some Lotus Petals. We can't win the race anyway, so reducing speed for more disruption seems reasonable. Though I wouldn't cut too many against Reanimator because of Chancellor.

    Against UB Shadow, after some testing against a friend of mine, I board down to 2 Mentors and cut the Spell Pierce for Removal. I still like all the combo pieces and discard in that matchup. I basically try to play ANT against them. Buying time until soft counters don't matter anymore and I have discard for Surgicals and Forces. In about 10 matches, the matchup felt quite positive, which my testing partner agreed with. I just found it to be easier to force through the combo than trying to cast a Mentor + several spells in the same turn. With the Pyromancer lists, that should be easier, but on the other hand Pyromancer doesn't feel like a reasonable win condition against Delver. It can buy a lot of time, but probably won't kill them. At least not without a Liliana helping out.

    I have yet to test against Grixis Delver. Shadow is probably the easiest Delver deck for us, because our combo one shots them a lot of the time.

    Against Reanimator, I would keep in the Combo. Of course our combo is slower than theirs, but hitting them for 9 effectively shuts off Reanimate after we disrupted their first attempt, which is huge.

  3. #83
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    After trying Esper through a few leagues I was pretty blown away by its power level and convinced it's better than Grixis by quite a lot, but now after playing it a lot more I'm understanding it more. The higher power level comes with more variance and Grixis is more consistent I think. Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor are both better in respective matchups and I've really noticed Mentor make the Delver matchup worse, but things like Chalice decks better. Not sure this is where we want to be. I will say though, when Mentor is good it's unreal in this shell.
    I think this is correct, which is sort of how I ended up wondering if Phoenix was actually the weak link in this deck :/ Mentor into two spell off Petal is insane, and Petal makes Daze easier to use...

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    On Reanimator, I'm surprisingly (or maybe not so surprisingly?) positive vs it. This will be a recurring thing I say, but please play Tormod's Crypt over Surgicals as your main sideboard hate. It's so, so much better in the matchups we want it. We have very little countermagic so can't protect Surgical from discard spells which basically all these GY decks play, this is the main reason to play proactive graveyard hate. Combined with our clock potential and discard spells of our own reanimator burns through a lot of resources to force the activation of the Crypt, we usually kill them in time or cantrip into another. The other key part of Crypt is being able to play it through a Chancellor trigger and finding it off a cantrip and being able to play it immediately. By doing this we accept we lose to their turn one combos, which yeah sucks, but I think we lose more games by them being able to discard surgical before a combo than them T1ing. They all respect surgical after board and play slower.
    More and more I'm starting to see this be the case. Crypt is better with Mentor than YP which definitely makes it more correct in the W build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    As I mentioned just above, boarding is quite hard, I still don't know what 'patterns' are right myself. A lot of the time will be trimming on things that are just worse than other cards, not that the card is especially bad in the matchup. I'll make a post after this one saying my general boarding patterns.
    I think this is important to keep in mind. Legacy has a lot of variables at the moment -- tempo is so important and board cards that are good on the play may not be on the draw and vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I don't know this for sure, but I think we should be keeping the combo and cutting the creatures vs combo actually. Or maybe just from Esper since Mentor is clunkier, this is what I've been doing and keeping all the combo, since YP is cheaper maybe it isn't right to do this in Grixis. It's really hard! But I don't think just because other combo decks combos are more powerful than ours is a reason to cut it, it's still our best clock and not resource heavy to pull off. We can still play a control game but with this combo as our clock, though it does make Therapy worse admittedly. But at the same time being so much faster gives them less topdecks, which this deck has a problem with.
    Keep in mind I'm doing this while experimenting with the Force board plan. If we are playing force, that's less cards to trigger Phoenix, not to mention playing more reactively -> less spells cast on your turn. I may try a different plan at some point where the goal will be to turbo out a win, but right now, I want my cards to be answers to the combo to force the game into topdeck mode and then clean up with a YP or hardcast Phoenix.

    Against Reanimator, I haven't had as much success as you, but I also haven't flipped my board plan to be heavier on Crypt yet. (I also lost one match to UB reanimator which plays quite differently -- had my buried alive dazed in a G1 for example). However, one reason to board out Buried Alive there is so we don't end up in a line where we set up a trigger for next turn and then they reanimate all our Arclights themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I like Echoing Truth vs a lot of decks too, I played 2 in the main yesterday, it's such a great card with Cabal Therapy. I don't really like it vs ANT, but I would side it in vs TES (btw your opponent was streaming in the league you said the other day, twitch/tv/graapeshot). I was siding it in vs SnS too, they're often forced to throw out a Sneak Attack without a creature and it's a way for us to interact with that. I wouldn't side it in vs reanimator, it's fine vs Chancellor or Iona or something, but I think we need to play the gameplan of not letting them get anything into play ideally. I think this is more a case of making a reason to play it because of how many cards need to come out, rather than it being good. Great vs Marit Lage yeah, unlikely it stays in our hand for long, but it's an out at least. You wanting to find an alternative card to it so it can come in with Forces is more a strike against Force than anything. Etruth has legit been great for me.
    lol, I went back and watched this. I got Aigis and Aerim mixed up and played the first turn game 1 like they were on red prison. Then game 2 got lucky but I would've been happy to go to a game 3 on the draw. Saw Negator77 in the chat -- pretty funny -- my reward for getting lucky in that second game was going to the next round against him and having no lands in 7, 6 or 5 against a terrible mu anyway. :)

    I should be clear that I think truth is a great card for us and clearly has excellent applications. I was just saying, that if force plan is correct, maybe a more horizontally good U card there -- especially one with S&T applications against show-Emrakul. However, I don't find S&T that difficult because they are an A+B combo where both parts have to be in hand (vs. reanimator where only one part has to be in hand and if they can get a creature into the GY they have far more topdecks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I'll try sb forces again at some point, but I've mentioned it before somewhere but I was pretty disappointed with them. The cost of pitching a cantrip is very high, and seemingly comes with the cost of siding in E Truth every time just because it's blue, I'm not convinced this is really the way to go. And like Surgical, we struggle to protect it from discard, I think proactive hate is the way to go in this deck. There are other ways to fight combo than countermagic, we're very heavy on discard obviously, sure our combo isn't as powerful as theirs but when it's a 2 turn clock after we've discarded them a bit it's often getting there. But we should be more specific when we say combo too, you can pinpoint weaknesses for each deck. For example Tormod's Crypt is absolutely insane vs ANT when we have a clock. They struggle to natural storm kill since they'll be lower on resources from our discard, they're under a clock from phoenixes which can shut off Ad Nauseum fast, and Crypt shuts off PiF, their usual way to beat us. An example of knowing the weakness of ANT, again yesterday in the challenge I snap kept a hand of Crypt, Ritual, Ritual, Petal, Phoenix, Land, Land. T1 Ritual, Petal, Phoenix for the 'clock' and Crypt to take out PiF, I drew another Phoenix which was ritualed out T3. They were forced to Tendrils just to stay alive before dying a couple turns later since both Past in Flames and Ad Nauseum were cut off.
    FWIW, I think Force is not good in the Mentor build because you have access to more hate cards in W and you have Petal as a way to be more explosive that isn't at 1cmc nor a nonbasic land. But against Grixis not only is Chalice brutal, but a T1 moon can be as well. Getting to play Kambal in W is great (I love Kambal and hope he can find a home) and of course you'll get Lavinia soon (I hate this card as you know but good is good, getting one of these down off a petal turn 1 is going to be insane ). If the Forces weren't in my Grixis build, I'd be playing 2 Abrades and another Fluster. None of these hit moon...

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    On Chalice matchups, yeah this is almost specifically the reason I put Etruth in the deck. Sure Force is good vs these matchups too, probably where it shines actually as we can lose to topdecks, especially from the moon stompy kind of decks but I've been finding them OK. I wouldn't ever be boarding out the combo vs them, it's how we get a lot of the free wins and throwing out Buried Alive T3 then throwing 3 spells into a Chalice works a lot of the time.
    Sorry I wasn't clear -- I board in the U package vs Chalice decks, but don't board out the combo. I forget exactly what it is, I think I just bring in 5-6 U cards and trim from the margins -- couple discard spells, one ritual/buried, a preordain, maybe a planeswalker. Serenity is so insane vs these decks though

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Agree on Depths, I'm close to giving it up. In Grixis Alpine Moon is pretty decent, I've spoken with Negator77 and solnox a fair amount about how to fight the matchup, they've agreed Alpine is probably the best option from Grixis and in Esper StP are fine-ish, but the best strategy is some discard, a quick Mentor and hope that gets there.
    I don't think I've ever won a match against Negator77, but I sure play him in every league. #WhyINever5-0

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    R2 vs Eldrazi - 1-2 - Won game one off a turn one combo, game two was close but I ran out of gas and ballista killed mentor, game three I mulled a 7 that maybe I should have kept, would anyone else have mulled this? 3x Mentor, 2x TS, 2x fetch. Felt like the deck can do better but maybe it was a mistake. 6 had no mana and 5 was pretty bad, got stomped.
    I think you keep that hand so you can T1 and 2 thoughtseize to keep them off anything threatening. You're hoping to draw a cantrip on turn 1 or 2 so you can TS + cantrip on that turn, and you have so many. Also, if you draw a Lotus Petal on 1 or 2, you can T1 thoughtseize their t1 play, t2 play mentor, if they don't answer, you untap on turn 3 with at least a thoughtseize and hopefully a cantrip/some more gas to get ahead of them.

    However, 3x mentor vs a deck where removal isn't really a thing is tough, I agree that it's close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    R4 vs - Punishing Fire/Blood Sun/Eldrazi thing - 1-2 - I punted g3 big time, pretty sure I win if I didn't, totally on me.
    lol, when we did the Paragon 24 hour stream we played against this deck, I called what it was immediately after we got Blood Sunned into Thought-Knot Seer and everyone thought i was crazy/stupid. They're right, but that's only because I tried the exact same thing when Blood Sun was printed. It didn't really work out.

    I'm having a lot of fun working on this deck honestly -- I love Phoenix and Therapy and Mentor, all these cards speak to me.

  4. #84
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    alright guys wow a lot of new information and everyone is on hard testing, great!

    i try to talk now more deeply about the combo match up no one is really sure what's wrong or right. Like still here its a lot possible and we have to look at each combo match up differently.

    Reanimator UB and RB: i think the same plan is fine here. I agree with you whitefaces, maybe i'm also wrong and we just need to pressure them in g1 and 2 a lot. so actually maybe to take out 4 mentor is not completely wrong.
    basically we can still having the fast combo and play a crypt/fluster/discard after for example. But also i have to say i have to test this way and also the way without the combo and more hard control. but maybe is exactly here the problem that they can discard mentor and even reanimate it. What happens with the phoenix maybe aswell but we will not have just 1 phoenix in the gy so maybe we can go and reanimate them again and block the other one for example. i think it could really be the better way also because we pressure them more. what happens with mentor is that if you have mentor+crypt is that it's also nice but maybe we used already gas for answers. with the combo we are probably going of faster and use the disruption and cantrips differently. i'm now on 3 surgical and 2 crypt. i have to test now more with this configuration but 5 is a lot and i think 4 hate peaces with all the other stuff is too much and we don't want to overboard in a way. that's why i would just play 2 surgical and 2 crypt. crypt is probably better in the deck. i would like to find room for a second kambal.
    what's also important they play a little less gy hate than the most other decks. i mean even the most ant list's playing 2 surgical today's on.

    ANT/TES
    here i prefer the control route a lot more. of course they play discard but they also play more cantrips to find more hate and go off to kill us directly. so just gy hate and combo gets less efficient. for example i found 2 ee for really nice to handle put down led's and maybe empty. the mentor therapy way is just strong even it's a 3 mana card. i mean we will come to that mana mostly and play control. mentor can kill quickly aswell. also with my idea of adding 1 kambal more make the whole plan better. with petal we can it t2 and protect him with fluster or discard. that's are my thought's here.

    Sneak and Show/ Mono U Show.
    I played actually just mono u show so far, don't know why but i lost it twice but it was when i startet to play magic again at saturday, also with a complete new deck so i really had a mix between combo and mentor what's not really the plan.
    i figure against bouth version i would choose also the same route as with ant. Its probably the slowest deck of all the 3 i mentioned so far. Leyline is a treath and i even play my 2 Disenchants here, they take omni sneak attack and random blood moons aswell. Also if they not resolve leyline of sanctity, they rather just get therapies. sneak and show is probably a little bit better. i still think it's the easiest match up the 3 combo decks i mentioned.

    Dark Depths
    To be honest i never played it yet. i figure the best way is just disruption and the t1 or t2 combo and be a little lucky. I don't think it's worth to concider ensnaring bridge because they probably keep decay specially after the decks develops more.
    but if its really this bad i would rather just play it like that with the combo and take cards in like fluster. i mean if someone await it like hardly, then sure we should go for a hate. though i like the idea path to exile over stp more because to give life is really not great with this deck.

    Mirror
    yes it happened, i played the mirror and its some random shit. lost it 1:2 g1 i was on the win with disruption he has nothing and drews BS into combo...

    Now some notes to the Delver Decks i found also really interesting

    UB Shadow, I played it sometimes now and i felt quit positive. Here i tried to find a balance between the combo and mentor. First to board out some of the mentor is really wrong because a resolves mentor is really hard to handle for them, specially if we disrupt them aswell. i don't have clear boarding plan yet here. i usually board 1 phoenix 1 alive 1 or 2 therapy 1 or 2 petal (not sure yet what's better but probably 2 petal)for 3 fluster and 2 EE.

    Grixis Delver

    I also did not played it. it's probably a more tough one specially after boarding. let's see what happens. maybe i'm wrong.

    RUG Delver

    basically the same as with Grixis, probably a little bit easier because we can play around stifle but still the plan is quit mana denial plan is quit strong against ester phoenix if we can not go off really fast. i think the combo here is the right way.

    Greets Pascal

  5. #85
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I missed bolts, I'd like to get some back in the 75.
    What about 2x Forked Bolt instead of 2x Lightning Bolt to substitute the 2x Daze? It looks to me we mostly play Sorcery speed and Forked could help with Death and Taxes, Strixes and Elves.

  6. #86
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Atreyu View Post
    What about 2x Forked Bolt instead of 2x Lightning Bolt to substitute the 2x Daze? It looks to me we mostly play Sorcery speed and Forked could help with Death and Taxes, Strixes and Elves.
    I dont think we need something like forked bolt, i mean all of those decks are quit faveres match ups. And daze helps alot against other hate. Also not sure how good bolt in a grixis version is.

  7. #87

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    I dont think we need something like forked bolt, i mean all of those decks are quit faveres match ups. And daze helps alot against other hate. Also not sure how good bolt in a grixis version is.
    Strix decks are generally very positive match-ups, but Elves and D+T can be tough IMHO. Elves can race 3 Phoenixes pretty well and discard isn't that great at stopping their combo since they're generally drawing a lot of cards each turn thanks to Glimpse/Visionary shenanigans. D+T's a better match-up than Elves, but Thalia and/or equip are good against us, especially if they have an active Vial to play around Therapy.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Played Esper last night:

    Czech Pile WW
    Czech Pile WW
    Lands LL
    Grixis Delver LL
    Depths WLL

    Wasteland was a huge factor in those middle games, even with Petal.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Esper at the weekly (in paper!)

    esper midrange (no sfm) 0-2
    Bant Delver 2-1
    Eldrazi 2-1
    Humans 2-1

    So a nice night. My hands in the first round were horrendous though, no landers into whiffing on cantrips.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    BTW-gm 3 vs Humans on the play

    Petal x2
    Ponder
    Brainstorm
    Preordain
    Mentor
    Delta

    Is everyone 100% slamming Mentor t1? What do you fetch with delta knowing they have Wasteland? I did island petal petal mentor, but cantrips whiffed for multiple turns and it was a bit dicey. However I think aggro mentor here is the right move, but curious if anyone is digging for Phoenix combo instead.


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  11. #91

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Hello everyone, I've been playing this deck at my last few local weeklies to pretty good success and have been having a lot of fun with the build. Thanks Whitefaces for the primer and continued work on the deck!

    Last night I actually played the mirror, and I was wondering what people's thoughts are on sideboarding strategy, and if it is play /draw dependent.

    My list for reference:
    4 Phoenix
    4 young pyro
    2 liliana last hope
    2 liliana of the veil

    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 preordain
    4 thoughtseize
    4 Cabal therapy
    4 dark ritual
    4 buried alive
    2 lightning bolt

    18 land
    1 island
    1 swamp
    3 underground sea
    3 volcanic island
    1 badlands
    4 scalding tarn
    4 polluted delta
    1 bloodstained mire

    Sideboard
    3 tormod crypt
    2 surgical extraction
    2 echoing truth
    2 spell pierce
    1 flusterstorm
    2 Abrade
    1 goblin cratermaker
    2 bitterblossom

    Against the mirror, almost all the sideboard cards seem good in some way! I ended going with
    -2 lotv
    -1 buried alive
    -1 Phoenix
    -2 preordain
    -1 Cabal therapy
    + 2 echoing truth
    + 3 tormod crypt
    + 2 Bitterblossom

    My opponent went more in the direction of siding out discard and bringing in permission. I think being proactive with discard is the right way to go, and surgical seems bad because you can just wait and get it with discard whereas crypt can just hang out on the board.

    Looking back, I think maybe echoing truth should not have been brought in, or only bring it in on the draw perhaps. If you need to use it, you're probably not doing well in the match anyway. I'm also thinking bringing in Abrade to kill their crypt or to kill a pyromancer is a good idea. Maybe even cratermaker too (in general he should maybe just be another Abrade honestly) . I don't think Bitterblossom was a good sideboard choice, that should have stayed out probably, too slow. I also think sideboarding out a basic land might be correct. Boarding out preordain I think was wrong too. Maybe this would have been better :

    -2 lotv
    -1 Phoenix
    -1 buried alive
    -1 swamp
    -1 Cabal therapy
    +3 tormod crypt
    +2 abrade
    +1 flusterstorm

    Let me know your thoughts everyone!

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

  12. #92
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Sorry for the lack of replies and updates everyone, I've been quite busy recently and not as much time to play. I plan to get back to all of you though, as well as post current thoughts on the deck and update the primer, especially talking about Grixis and Esper and what pros and cons they both have.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  13. #93

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Sorry for the lack of replies and updates everyone, I've been quite busy recently and not as much time to play. I plan to get back to all of you though, as well as post current thoughts on the deck and update the primer, especially talking about Grixis and Esper and what pros and cons they both have.
    Can't wait to see your update! Thanks for directing me to this thread

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