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Thread: Grixis Phoenix

  1. #21
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Thanks for testing it. It's viekos idea. I only tried it a bit in oops all spells, but it's pretty questionable there.
    -rob

  2. #22
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Thanks for testing it. It's viekos idea. I only tried it a bit in oops all spells, but it's pretty questionable there.
    Thanks for the suggestion. I wish scourge of nel toth was better but I think this does what I was hoping that would do. There's an evasion tradeoff, but the same effective power; Amalgam is easier to get out but easier to remove, but if you never get the scourge out its difficulty to remove doesn't matter.

    I forgot about this situation I faced. Here is the relevant info:

    -Game 2 vs UR delver, but a more tempo than burn-based build. We won game 1. Opponent has been sitting on crypt whole game (t1 land, crypt, go).
    -We knew they had Brainstorm, Force and Lavamancer from a previous Therapy.
    -Opponent brainstormed two turns ago. Have not fetched since. Last turn played Lavamancer and passed.
    -We cast a therapy from our hand this turn, named Force and hit. Remember, this means storm count is one. We have not played a land.
    -Opponent's deck has True-Name Nemesis in it. We have hit one with a discard spell but do not know how many there may be or what's on top of their deck.
    -We have no creatures in our graveyard. Our buried alive package has been trimmed, but not cut completely. There are still 4 Phoenices in our deck.
    -What do you do here? (Edit: You may need to right-click and open pic in new window)

    https://imgur.com/0oD47Lw


  3. #23
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    "-We cast a therapy from our hand this turn, named Force and hit. Remember, this means storm count is one. We have not played a land."

    i don't see this.
    -rob

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    "-We cast a therapy from our hand this turn, named Force and hit. Remember, this means storm count is one. We have not played a land."

    i don't see this.
    i don't know what makes the storm counter on mtgo pop up, which is why i added the reminder. I also forgot to pop out the graveyards, but rest assured there are two therapies in ours and a force at the top of theirs.

  5. #25
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I just don't see any tapped lands for casting therapy this turn from hand.
    -rob

  6. #26
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    Buried Phoenix

    Oh you’re right. I definitely missed something. I think they brainstormed, the next turn I therapied force, then their turn they played lavamancer, that brings us here. So I guess storm is still 0.


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  7. #27
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    @ maharis

    I do like that Ritual > Buried is a thing on turn one with Narc and Amalgam, I'll try it at some point. The cards aren't totally embarrassing to cast either, Phoenixes have been legit to hardcast too.

    You should try more Tormod's Crypts for reanimator. Sure we lose to their T1s, I'm now tryng 2 Surgical 3 Crypt to fight that angle, but if we get a Crypt in play they have to use a lot of resources to fight through it, often buying time to either kill them or find another.

    Echoing Truths aren't exactly for Leylines, they're a catch all to 'combo' with Therapy. They've been great for me, your list is weaker to leyline too, so I'd be on them I think.




    I played 2 leagues on stream with the below list today. Mainly trying out Liliana of the Veil and cutting the Strix. Strix is always a tough one to evaluate since the card is so good as a standalone, but it's pretty mopey in the deck, I didn't feel like it was missed at all actually.

    The maindeck is feeling really powerful, the slots that are open to be flex are 4th Pyromancer, 3rd Bolt and the Veil, other than that I'm almost sure everything else is beyond questioning, which I know is early in usual deck development but it's enacting the gameplan over and over again with consistency.

    We went 4-1 in both the leagues, the VOD is here if anyone fancies watching it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/355457463

    1-2 vs ANT
    2-0 vs Rebels
    2-1 vs Grixis Delver
    2-0 vs Miracles
    2-0 vs UW Blade

    2-1 vs UB control
    0-2 vs Depths
    2-0 vs Tin Fins
    2-0 vs Eldrazi
    2-0 vs BW Chrome Mox stuff, Chalices, Rips, PWers etc

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  8. #28
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    @ maharis

    I do like that Ritual > Buried is a thing on turn one with Narc and Amalgam, I'll try it at some point. The cards aren't totally embarrassing to cast either, Phoenixes have been legit to hardcast too.

    You should try more Tormod's Crypts for reanimator. Sure we lose to their T1s, I'm now tryng 2 Surgical 3 Crypt to fight that angle, but if we get a Crypt in play they have to use a lot of resources to fight through it, often buying time to either kill them or find another.

    Echoing Truths aren't exactly for Leylines, they're a catch all to 'combo' with Therapy. They've been great for me, your list is weaker to leyline too, so I'd be on them I think.




    I played 2 leagues on stream with the below list. Mainly trying out Liliana of the Veil and cutting the Strix. Strix is always a tough one to evaluate since the card is so good as a standalone, but it's pretty mopey in the deck, I didn't feel like it was missed at all actually.

    The maindeck is feeling really powerful, the slots that are open to be flex are 4th Pyromancer, 3rd Bolt and the Veil, other than that I'm almost sure everything else is beyond questioning, which I know is early in usual deck development but it's enacting the gameplan over and over again with consistency.

    We went 4-1 in both the leagues, the VOD is here if anyone fancies watching it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/355457463

    1-2 vs ANT
    2-0 vs Rebels
    2-1 vs Grixis Delver
    2-0 vs Miracles
    2-0 vs UW Blade

    2-1 vs UB control
    0-2 vs Depths
    2-0 vs Tin Fins
    2-0 vs Eldrazi
    2-0 vs BW Chrome Mox stuff, Chalices, Rips, PWers etc
    ooh good point about Truth. Maybe I should bring it in more. I will try some new crypt/surgical splits in the side too.

    I went 2-3 after 2-0 in the practice room.

    2-0 vs Vial Wizards
    2-0 vs Miracles
    1-2 vs Grixis (no lands in 7, 6 or 5 card hands game 3)
    1-2 vs UW stoneblade (mull to 5, TNN)
    0-2 vs Death's Shadow (i misplayed like crazy)

    A little bad luck, a little TNN. Gonna tweak and re-run.

    I watched a bit of your leagues today. If I can't get better results I might just play it at my 1k this weekend. :)

    Getting 0-2d by Depths with 3 Alpine Moon hurts. Is it even worth trying to solve for it?

    Regarding the puzzle I butchered -- and can't repair because MTGO's replays are messed up... The situation hinged on whether or not I could resolve Last Hope through their hand to kill the Lavamancer without using my entire hand in case I needed Ritual or Fluster in the future, and I ended up using the Phoenix to discard Fluster so I could play Ritual->Lili through Pierce. However, I think I may have miscounted storm so I probably didn't need to actually do that :)

  9. #29

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Whats the reason for playing any Liliana in the main 60?

  10. #30
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    ooh good point about Truth. Maybe I should bring it in more. I will try some new crypt/surgical splits in the side too.

    I went 2-3 after 2-0 in the practice room.

    2-0 vs Vial Wizards
    2-0 vs Miracles
    1-2 vs Grixis (no lands in 7, 6 or 5 card hands game 3)
    1-2 vs UW stoneblade (mull to 5, TNN)
    0-2 vs Death's Shadow (i misplayed like crazy)

    A little bad luck, a little TNN. Gonna tweak and re-run.

    I watched a bit of your leagues today. If I can't get better results I might just play it at my 1k this weekend. :)

    Getting 0-2d by Depths with 3 Alpine Moon hurts. Is it even worth trying to solve for it?

    Regarding the puzzle I butchered -- and can't repair because MTGO's replays are messed up... The situation hinged on whether or not I could resolve Last Hope through their hand to kill the Lavamancer without using my entire hand in case I needed Ritual or Fluster in the future, and I ended up using the Phoenix to discard Fluster so I could play Ritual->Lili through Pierce. However, I think I may have miscounted storm so I probably didn't need to actually do that :)
    Why not flashback therapy to discard spell pierce? Then you can cast Lili and he has no way to interact. (flusterstorm is cold to it)
    -rob

  11. #31
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    Whats the reason for playing any Liliana in the main 60?
    It's mentioned a bit in the first post, but basically they're solid cards in their own right while also powerful cards to play fast with Dark Ritual. The second point is to raise the floor of the deck slightly if you flood on Rituals. Last Hope especially is also an important part of the deck in sb games as it's a win con fighting on another axis to the GY from Phoenixes and go wide from YP. These three angles make sbing very hard vs this deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  12. #32

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Has anyone else toyed around with mission briefing in the main?
    I am running 2 in the main right now, and they have been relevant in my games so far. The benefits of mission briefing in this deck are that it’s a mid to late game top deck that can actively allow u to cast 3 spells in a turn. Mostly by casting it and replaying a cantrips from the GY is enough to get u there. Also having a buried alive and mission briefing in hand with 3 lands out and a D ritual in the graveyard can get u the phoenix’s. It can also allow us to recast removal or discard from the GY to help put us in a position to win games.
    I’m not sure 2 is the correct number to play, but 1 may suffice as a way to give us a late game out to situations.
    I’m also playing 2 Unmoored Ego in the SB for depths /lands or combo matchups.

  13. #33
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceralyst View Post
    Has anyone else toyed around with mission briefing in the main?
    I am running 2 in the main right now, and they have been relevant in my games so far. The benefits of mission briefing in this deck are that it’s a mid to late game top deck that can actively allow u to cast 3 spells in a turn. Mostly by casting it and replaying a cantrips from the GY is enough to get u there. Also having a buried alive and mission briefing in hand with 3 lands out and a D ritual in the graveyard can get u the phoenix’s. It can also allow us to recast removal or discard from the GY to help put us in a position to win games.
    I’m not sure 2 is the correct number to play, but 1 may suffice as a way to give us a late game out to situations.
    I’m also playing 2 Unmoored Ego in the SB for depths /lands or combo matchups.
    Interesting idea, I hadn't thought of it. I can see it being good in the later stages of the game. It is pretty slow, but the scenarios you're describing do some up, I'll give one a try. I don't think we'd want to play any more though.

    I was considering Unmoored Ego for Depths but it's so slow, they can either discard it, fluster it or simply have DD in play already/Crop Rotation in response. I think that's too many things that can go wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  14. #34

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I tried some leagues with this deck today, went 4-1, 3-2, 3-2.
    The raw power is there, but I need to refine my skill a lot.
    Some things I have tried: 2 Jace Prodigy, 1 Anger, and IoK/Duress split because after spending all my tickes on the Phoenixes I could not also get 4 Thoughtseizes. I don't think it made much of a difference tbh.
    I also run only 8 fetches, and I thinks that was actually fine alongside 4 Preordain.

  15. #35
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Anger seems pretty spicy with Young Pyromancer, although it doesn't really make sense to Buried Alive for it. It definitely makes the Entomb version better, although I agree that Entomb is too low powered here.

    I also think there are some other interesting options that could be good in here, probably as singletons, like Gut Shot and Lava Dart. Flashback spells in general seem sweet, though it's probably not worth destabilizing the manabase to run Ancient Grudge in the board.
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  16. #36
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I watched Jarvis Yu stream a version of this, pretty cool deck. It seems to play out like a genuine agro deck. The young peezy backup plan was really good, a way to make sure you don't just get stuck with air in your hand. His version didn't have bolts or forces, which surprised me. It leaned on discard and daze. Bolt seems like a natural inclusion for removal and reach, force maybe in the sideboard (blue count makes it iffy.)

    Link to stream:
    https://youtu.be/X5gUWaTNyXk

    Regarding Depths: is Wipe Away an option?
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  17. #37
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesian View Post
    I tried some leagues with this deck today, went 4-1, 3-2, 3-2.
    The raw power is there, but I need to refine my skill a lot.
    Some things I have tried: 2 Jace Prodigy, 1 Anger, and IoK/Duress split because after spending all my tickes on the Phoenixes I could not also get 4 Thoughtseizes. I don't think it made much of a difference tbh.
    I also run only 8 fetches, and I thinks that was actually fine alongside 4 Preordain.
    Yeah, the deck does take some getting used to, especially when sequencing both cantrips and discard. I'm still making plenty of mistakes myself, but it's the best way to learn.

    Jace is nice, I've tried him a couple of times too. I ended up thinking that Strix was better but I've been much lower on that this past week so might try JVP again.

    Anger is nice if you're playing some other creatures, but as Hanni said it doesn't seem too great with Phoenixes, so just for YP? Did it do much?

    IoK and Duress hopefully you can get by with for a bit, but I think TS is quite a large amount better. It's not too uncommon to TS yourself for a Phoenix, and there are some key cards both the other two spell miss, notably Force for IoK and hatebears like Thalia, or maybe Thought-Knot Seer. When the deck is halfway between combo and control it's important to have the flexibility.

    My reasoning for running so many fetches is both the colour requirements when sequencing the spells, and later in the game when you need to chain cantrips they're important for BSs and Ponders especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Anger seems pretty spicy with Young Pyromancer, although it doesn't really make sense to Buried Alive for it. It definitely makes the Entomb version better, although I agree that Entomb is too low powered here.

    I also think there are some other interesting options that could be good in here, probably as singletons, like Gut Shot and Lava Dart. Flashback spells in general seem sweet, though it's probably not worth destabilizing the manabase to run Ancient Grudge in the board.
    There's a bunch of cool cards we can run, yeah. Especially when I first had Entombs in the deck there was suggestions of Lava Dart, among many others, but I think you really want maximum consistency. It's only later in the game that you can sometimes struggle to chain 3 spells together, and if you don't have those Phoenixes in the yard something like Dart is a real liability. The deck also uses its mana well up to ~5, so the flashback cost can be real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I watched Jarvis Yu stream a version of this, pretty cool deck. It seems to play out like a genuine agro deck. The young peezy backup plan was really good, a way to make sure you don't just get stuck with air in your hand. His version didn't have bolts or forces, which surprised me. It leaned on discard and daze. Bolt seems like a natural inclusion for removal and reach, force maybe in the sideboard (blue count makes it iffy.)

    Link to stream:
    https://youtu.be/X5gUWaTNyXk

    Regarding Depths: is Wipe Away an option?
    I've been chatting with Jarvis about all the builds too, that was one we were trying at the time but it was all still in flux. Daze has potential but I haven't tested it enough yet. Also I think there should be more bolts and he agrees, just the nature of trying different configurations out.

    The danger of Daze and Force is being reactive cards when the deck wants as many proactive things as possible for Phoenixes and YP, though the reactive cards aren't so bad with YP. It came up a non-trivial amount of the time where a Daze in hand meant I couldn't get back Phoenixes unless the opponent took some bait and we could cast it. I've also tried Forces in the sideboard and I think were in the last 5-0 that was posted of this, but also multiple times you got caught with it and no blue card so I think Flusters and Spell Pierce might be better, just a lot worse on the draw vs things like Reanimator and occasionally storm. Discard has been doing a good job of interaction when coupled with the fast clock, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  18. #38
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I've been chatting with Jarvis about all the builds too, that was one we were trying at the time but it was all still in flux. Daze has potential but I haven't tested it enough yet. Also I think there should be more bolts and he agrees, just the nature of trying different configurations out.
    I like your recent list with 3 Bolts in the main and 3 Abrade in the sideboard. The prior list with only 2 MD Bolts was having a pretty rough time against D&T in our testing, especially post board, having to deal with Thalia, Sanctum Prelate, and Containment Priest.

    I want even one more Bolt effect. I'll be trying a Fire/Ice in the main over one of the Strix slots (so over the LotV in your latest list). It is a versatile answer for multiple critters as well as being able to deal with Marit Lage for a turn, which could sometimes be enough for the Phoenixes to get there. It's never a completely dead late game draw either.

  19. #39
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaynel View Post
    I like your recent list with 3 Bolts in the main and 3 Abrade in the sideboard. The prior list with only 2 MD Bolts was having a pretty rough time against D&T in our testing, especially post board, having to deal with Thalia, Sanctum Prelate, and Containment Priest.

    I want even one more Bolt effect. I'll be trying a Fire/Ice in the main over one of the Strix slots (so over the LotV in your latest list). It is a versatile answer for multiple critters as well as being able to deal with Marit Lage for a turn, which could sometimes be enough for the Phoenixes to get there. It's never a completely dead late game draw either.
    Makes sense. I've found DnT to be pretty favourable so far, you can usually control them, but I haven't played vs that many Prelates luckily or always had the Abrade for it. If you don't already have the answers lined up it's tough.

    Fire//Ice is a good shout, could see it having a lot of application in this deck. I'm currently trying a second Liliana of the Veil though, she's been impressive in the small sample size so far. I'd recommend trying her out, and if you want to cut something you can trim a YP, especially if you still have 2 Lili Last Hope to rebuy them.

    And @Mr. Safety - 'Regarding Depths: is Wipe Away an option?'

    Since this deck doesn't play that much countermagic it's hard to protect reactive 'answers' to Marit Lage, I was playing Edicts too for a bit and while they don't get around Safekeeper too, that was never the problem, it was keeping them in hand. Alpine Moon has been good so far for the matchup.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  20. #40

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Anger is nice if you're playing some other creatures, but as Hanni said it doesn't seem too great with Phoenixes, so just for YP? Did it do much?
    Well, Jace is a creature also. That was my idea.
    And there were times where the extra damage from getting Anger with Pyromancer in play added up to more than an extra Phoenix would have.
    But overall I don't know if it is worth it, no.

    You are right about the Thoughtseizes, I will get them.

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