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Thread: Grixis Phoenix

  1. #41
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartesian View Post
    Well, Jace is a creature also. That was my idea.
    And there were times where the extra damage from getting Anger with Pyromancer in play added up to more than an extra Phoenix would have.
    But overall I don't know if it is worth it, no.

    You are right about the Thoughtseizes, I will get them.
    Ah I see, pretty cute with Jace yeah.

    I played the challenge today, pretty mediocre 4-3 but may as well comment on the matches.

    2-1 vs Rip Helm - This should be a nightmare matchup for us, I was locked out by rip and energy field quite quickly game one and couldn't find a Liliana of the Veil before they found a Helm. I was then able to take the sideboard games, second game from Echoing Truth and the third from a Veil ultimate, especially Liliana really proved her worth by breaking up Rip and Field as well as destroying 3 lands at the end.

    1-2 vs Eldrazi - Game one I got Chaliced out into multiple Thought-Knots, didn't stand a chance. Game two I had a turn two combo and they didn't have sb cards for it. Game three they had Leyline and a Matter Reshaper to open, I thoughtseized and took a Smasher leaving them with a Macabre and All is Dust, they drew running Wastelands then a Ballista to take out a Pyromancer I finally got down. In retrospect I could have fetched basics despite knowing there were no Wastelands in their hand and potentially won this game.

    2-1 vs TES - I think I was a little lucky to take this match too. Game one I had a turn two combo putting them to 9, they had to Ad Nauseum with no mana floating and didn't find a Petal or Mox. Game two they killed me on their turn two. Game three I had a Fluster for their Duress for a turn two combo, they had a slower hand and conceded their turn three.

    0-2 vs UW Blade - Game one I had a decent hand with cantrips and sculpted into the combo plus some discard, but that was met with Pierce, Counterspell and a Force and I wasn't able to pull anything together. Game two I played poorly, I got a little frustrated and forgot that Phoenixes aren't a 'may' return and threw a Buried Alive after multiple spells into a Containment Priest, with the intention of killing it the following turn to return then. Again this game they had a lot of interaction too, felt rough for a usually great matchup.

    1-2 vs SnS - JPA does JPA things episode 578345743. Game one he had a turn three combo after Intuitioning for Show and Tell after Forcing my combo, then Omni into two Emrakuls. Game two I Thoughtseized a Petal out of a hand with no other coloured mana, this gave me the time to combo twice (first being Forced) and stripping his combo cards away. G3 was a turn two Griselbrand, I put in a land and had two Rituals, Buried and Lili Veil, so went for Buried which got Forced, then went for Liliana which got forced too. Sometimes there's nothing you can do...

    2-0 vs UW Blade - This match was a bit more textbook, discarded relevant cards and comboed, they had a Swords and CJ for two Phoenixes but a harcdcast fourth put it away. Game two was again fairly textbook, they had surgical, flusters, force etc but discard and Young Pyromancer/s eating the Force cleared the way for the combo.

    2-1 vs Moon Stompy - Game one I get to Preordain off a Sea which is met by a Magus of the Moon followed by a Chalice, I have a couple of turns to draw basic Swamp and Buried but a Rabblemaster puts it away quickly. Game two they get a Chalice down but I play Buried Alive turn three and throw three spells into it, smack for nine. They have a Magus on the board but are forced to Fiery Confluence wiping it, which unlocks my blue mana to play some more cantrips into chalice and bring the birds back. Game three they keep a hand of multiple Chalices but just an Ancient Tomb, I get to eot Echoing Truth two of them then untap and throw a Bolt and four Phoenixes at them, putting them to one with just a Tomb in play. This matchup plays out a bit better than it looks on paper.

    A bit sad to lose vs UW Blade as like I said the matchup has been pretty favourable, can't feel too bad about losing to SnS or Eldrazi though, those two decks will get you sometimes.

    I was playing two Liliana of the Veil main today, in the small testing with her so far she's really overperformed so I'll continue with two. Last Hope on the other hand has been fine, but a little lacking, I might trim back to one copy and play a third Bolt. While it wouldn't have been too great in the matchups today, I think it's pretty key to a lot of others to have multiple of them.

    I was also playing a Spell Pierce in the board to accompany two Flusters, it felt great vs UW Rip Helm at least! May try a second over a Fluster too.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  2. #42

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I was playing two Liliana of the Veil main today, in the small testing with her so far she's really overperformed so I'll continue with two. Last Hope on the other hand has been fine, but a little lacking, I might trim back to one copy and play a third Bolt. While it wouldn't have been too great in the matchups today, I think it's pretty key to a lot of others to have multiple of them.
    Glad to hear I haven't lost my touch lmao

  3. #43
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I'm very interested in this deck, thanks for opening the thread and congratulations on the results of your build (I saw a couple 5-0 if I'm not mistaken).

    I still have not played any games, so I'm speaking only "on paper" and I already saw you answered some questions, but still

    It seems to me ritual+buried alive is very powerful but it's also a two card combo made by two 4-ofs. Compared to others (show, reanimate) that have 8-ofs and are more powerful in terms of turn-kill it makes me question if we can't find other things to supplement the 4-ofs and increase redundancy, like a couple more rituals, or if we can't find something else to play in addition to buried alive.
    I read you tested and disliked both Intuition and Faithless Loothing... what about Thought Scour/Mental notes?

    Also, have you tested the more blue version you spoke earlier here?
    You cited Jarvis, I found also LSV https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...y-channel-lsv/

    Do you think there could be a way to fuse the two approaches together? like no counters, keep discards and buried, but also play delvers or other ways to put phoenixes in graveyard... Chart a Course?

    Final question, I saw you wrote Surgical is not a problem, how is that? Shouldn't be better to play a couple Silent Gravestone in sideboard?

    Thanks again!

  4. #44
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Makes sense. I've found DnT to be pretty favourable so far, you can usually control them, but I haven't played vs that many Prelates luckily or always had the Abrade for it. If you don't already have the answers lined up it's tough.

    Fire//Ice is a good shout, could see it having a lot of application in this deck. I'm currently trying a second Liliana of the Veil though, she's been impressive in the small sample size so far. I'd recommend trying her out, and if you want to cut something you can trim a YP, especially if you still have 2 Lili Last Hope to rebuy them.

    And @Mr. Safety - 'Regarding Depths: is Wipe Away an option?'

    Since this deck doesn't play that much countermagic it's hard to protect reactive 'answers' to Marit Lage, I was playing Edicts too for a bit and while they don't get around Safekeeper too, that was never the problem, it was keeping them in hand. Alpine Moon has been good so far for the matchup.
    Wow, Alpine Moon making it's way into Legacy. It does seem to be a pretty effective (and cheap) answer to Depths. Is Blood Moon an option?
    Brainstorm Realist

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  5. #45
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    I'm very interested in this deck, thanks for opening the thread and congratulations on the results of your build (I saw a couple 5-0 if I'm not mistaken).

    I still have not played any games, so I'm speaking only "on paper" and I already saw you answered some questions, but still

    It seems to me ritual+buried alive is very powerful but it's also a two card combo made by two 4-ofs. Compared to others (show, reanimate) that have 8-ofs and are more powerful in terms of turn-kill it makes me question if we can't find other things to supplement the 4-ofs and increase redundancy, like a couple more rituals, or if we can't find something else to play in addition to buried alive.
    I read you tested and disliked both Intuition and Faithless Loothing... what about Thought Scour/Mental notes?

    Also, have you tested the more blue version you spoke earlier here?
    You cited Jarvis, I found also LSV https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...y-channel-lsv/

    Do you think there could be a way to fuse the two approaches together? like no counters, keep discards and buried, but also play delvers or other ways to put phoenixes in graveyard... Chart a Course?

    Final question, I saw you wrote Surgical is not a problem, how is that? Shouldn't be better to play a couple Silent Gravestone in sideboard?

    Thanks again!
    No problem answering these questions, I'm happy to. Though the deck is quite hard to simply understand from looking at the decklist, I'd encourage you or anyone else to watch either some of my streams (the VODs are posted in this thread) or Jarvis has streamed it again recently. On mine I try to explain a lot of the lines, it might be helpful to understand not just the deck choices but also how I play the deck, then card choices probably make more sense too.

    First thing you have to keep in mind about Buried Alive and Dark Ritual is that while they combo together, you don't need them together. It's fairly common to play a Buried Alive on turn three and follow it up the turn after with some spells. Rituals are worse without Buried Alive granted, but they're still fairly strong with the Lilianas. Since this deck is going to come up against Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm a lot too I've used them to 'counter' them using the mana to pay. So on this note I've found the combo to be powerful and with all the cantrips consistent enough that I want to concentrate the rest of the deck on raising the floor, that means things like Thought Scour/Mental note are just too bad a card on their own. If you really look at the deck there's not that much graveyard synergy, just Phoenix and Cabal Therapy so it's not too likely to be hitting off these anyway. And on a similar note to why I found Entomb to be underwhelming, when boarding I usually look to take out any of the low powered synergy cards in preparation for graveyard hate. Scour/Note also opens you up to Surgical, which I'll answer that question here too. Surgical is reactive, so I've found it pretty easy to either take it with discard spells before putting Phoenix into the yard, or simply leave it there and play a Young Pyromancer or Liliana game. The only times where you can lose to it is either if you're under a lot of pressure from something like Delver or Shadow, or if they Thoughtseize a Phoenix then have the Surgical. This is still not a game winning play too, while it can cripple the deck it's not hard to still win with Pyromancer.

    I've not tested the heavier blue version with Delver and countermagic, but it's been discussed a lot. I've also watched a bunch of people stream it but it honestly looks less powerful than this one, at least the Phoenix angle. Most of the times I've seen the deck win has been off Delver, Daze and Lightning Bolt etc, while Phoenixes are stranded in hand not doing much. But in this shell, Delver is just another threat and I don't believe the deck needs that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Wow, Alpine Moon making it's way into Legacy. It does seem to be a pretty effective (and cheap) answer to Depths. Is Blood Moon an option?
    Same issue as all the other 3cmc options, it gets discarded or Depths can combo before you play it. I don't care so much about locking them out, just the card Dark Depths itself so I think Alpine is better.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  6. #46
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Played at 1K Dec. 30:

    4 Arclight Phoenix
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Prized Amalgam
    2 Narcomoeba

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    2 Lightning Bolt
    2 Preordain

    2 Liliana, the Last Hope

    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    3 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Force of Will
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Abrade
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Bitterblossom

    Decided to up the U count and play a couple Forces. They came in almost every game, as you'll see...

    Rd 1: Burn 1-2 (0-1)
    Game 1: I keep a turn 1 liliana. They play mountain-swiftspear. I change my mind and go ritual-seize-therapy-therapy and empty their hand. Then I never draw gas.
    Game 2: I keep turn 1 ritual-buried-narco-double amalgam. This wins.
    Game 3: Who can even remember.

    Rd 2: BUG midrange 2-1 (1-1)
    Game 1: I keep turn 1 ritual-buried-narco-double amalgam, thoughtseize and therapy some removal, then draw 5 lands in 6 draw steps.
    Games 2 and 3: Deck works pretty well.

    Rd 3: Sneak and Show 2-0 (2-1)
    Games 1 and 2: Opponent never has both combo pieces in hand. Discard is great

    Rd 4: BR Reanimator 0-2 (2-2)
    Game 1: *stares into endless void*
    Game 2: Made a sequencing error that allows opponent to get something into play, but even if I had been correct I would've lost the next turn.

    Rd 5: Ur Omnitell 0-2 (2-3)
    Game 1: Who can even remember
    Game 2: I turn 1 seize-surgical Emrakul, and get opponent down to 3, but cannot get the last points across before he gets Show->Omni->Wish->Brainstorm omni to top->Release the Ants

    So...

    I boarded out my combo cards in every combo matchup in favor of playing a harder Grixis control style. (What's a better three-mana sorcery: Show and Tell or Buried Alive?) That yielded a 1-2 record, including 2 sideboarded losses. I don't think it's a bad idea, just some bad luck.

    Narco-Amalgam package was excellent. I should've won the BUG game 1 going away, I just really got bit by the variance bug. And, it was the only reason I took a game off of Burn.

    These kinds of hyper-cantrip decks always feel like they flood out more. I looked at a lot of hands filled with lands in the late game... Turbo Xerox theory says that cantrips are part of your mana base. But I also feel like we have to throw back a ton of one-landers with bulky spells. Not sure that can be solved, but interested if others have the same experience. Cards like Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal that increase explosiveness could be considered.

  7. #47
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Sorry to hear it didn't go so well, combo is certainly one of this decks weak spots.

    When you say you sided out your combo cards in every matchup, which ones exactly? That's a lot to take out, I can see Narc and Amalgams, but I think it's quite important to keep the Rituals and Burieds to put them under a quick clock once you've discarded them. If you don't have a fast clock the discard loses a lot of its effect as you give them more draw steps.

    I would recommend playing the full set of Preordains, this kind of addresses your last point, sounds like you need more consistency not mana and explosiveness. This deck especially wants all the cantrips all the time, it operates off pretty low land counts too so a lot of the time you're able to cantrip for just gas. Part of not flooding is playing the cantrips in the right order at the right time too, from my experience with this deck so far you sometimes want to sandbag cantrips if you're not looking for something in particular or have a bottleneck on mana for the turn, for example you have volc and u sea up and some number of phoenixes in the yard, if you only have one cantrip in hand I'd hold onto it since you're not getting full value due to not being able to get the Phoenix back. Flooding here could also just be your draws too, it's a small sample size, it happens sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  8. #48
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Sorry to hear it didn't go so well, combo is certainly one of this decks weak spots.

    When you say you sided out your combo cards in every matchup, which ones exactly? That's a lot to take out, I can see Narc and Amalgams, but I think it's quite important to keep the Rituals and Burieds to put them under a quick clock once you've discarded them. If you don't have a fast clock the discard loses a lot of its effect as you give them more draw steps.

    I would recommend playing the full set of Preordains, this kind of addresses your last point, sounds like you need more consistency not mana and explosiveness. This deck especially wants all the cantrips all the time, it operates off pretty low land counts too so a lot of the time you're able to cantrip for just gas. Part of not flooding is playing the cantrips in the right order at the right time too, from my experience with this deck so far you sometimes want to sandbag cantrips if you're not looking for something in particular or have a bottleneck on mana for the turn, for example you have volc and u sea up and some number of phoenixes in the yard, if you only have one cantrip in hand I'd hold onto it since you're not getting full value due to not being able to get the Phoenix back. Flooding here could also just be your draws too, it's a small sample size, it happens sometimes.
    Oh yeah. I mean, losing die roll to burn first round is just a thing that happens sometimes.

    On cantrip counts -- I feel like we can go down to 17 and add the 3rd preordain. I could try your build with the Liliana split over the Narco/Amalgam buried backup plan I suppose, that would support Dark Rit better and also get to 4 Preordains, but I have won some games by having that plan available. It will take a lot of testing and probably recording what happens vs. every deck to understand which of those plans works better.

    I cut 3 Rituals, 3 Buried Alives, and 2 Lilianas for 3 Surgical, 2 Echoing Truth, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Force of Will vs. Reanimator. Against Show and Tell variants I cut everything and added the Pyroblasts. The Narcs and Amalgams stayed in as threats and blue cards. My rationale was that I was either going to win with YP or by running everyone out of cards and playing my threats off the top. I really don't think you can get there with 3 creatures over 2-3 turns vs. decks with Griselbrand. Ritual->Buried is two cards that don't interact with a combo at all. Like you do it and they go "cool, show and tell."

    Also, bringing in reactive cards makes it harder to play 3 spells on our turn for Phoenix. (FWIW, I didn't play Crypt because I expected more S&T than Reanimator. It was the most represented deck with 3 or 4 out of 17 players on some variant.)

    The power level is here but the sequencing and matchup knowledge is tricky. I seem to never play against fair decks that this just brutalizes like Miracles or Grixis haha.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    League w/same build except Crypt over Force

    Rd 1 Grixis W 2-0
    Rd 2 TES W 2-1
    Rd 3 4c Fauna Shaman 1-2
    Rd 4 BR Reanimator 1-2 (opponent mulled to 5 g1 and had rit-entomb-animate dead, g3 i had flusterstorm and he had animate dead)
    Rd 5 Burn 1-2

    Love the deck but think I have to take a break.

  10. #50

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by maharis View Post
    League w/same build except Crypt over Force

    Rd 1 Grixis W 2-0
    Rd 2 TES W 2-1
    Rd 3 4c Fauna Shaman 1-2
    Rd 4 BR Reanimator 1-2 (opponent mulled to 5 g1 and had rit-entomb-animate dead, g3 i had flusterstorm and he had animate dead)
    Rd 5 Burn 1-2

    Love the deck but think I have to take a break.
    I would suggest watching whitefaces' videos to help learn how to 'sequence cantrips correctly and play them at the right time'.

    Why are you running the liliana that doesn't work well with phoenix/amalgam?

    Cutting fow seems odd?
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  11. #51
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    This wasn’t really about sequencing, just bad matchups/luck. Both games I lost to fauna shaman had Leovold in play. Both games I lost to Burn had Eidolon. I kept crypt-Flusterstorm on the draw game 3 vs Reanimator and they went thoughtseize into animate dead win. What can you do?


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  12. #52
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Hello everybody,
    just a quick report of my test yesterday (in our local store we don't play Friday Night Magic, we play swiss-only Saturday Afternoon Legacy ).

    I played this list:
    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Buried Alive
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Force of Will
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Faithless Looting
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    1 Cabal Therapy
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Bitterblossom
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Invasive Surgery
    1 Force of Will
    2 Abrade
    2 Perilous Voyage

    Choices explanation. Maindeck: no Lilianas, FoW, Faithless Loothing. Reasons: I expected a fair amount of combos, Liliana did not seem a good choice, FoW self explanatory given the premises. Loothing because I was afraid of having uncastable phoenix in hand.
    Impressions after testing: FoW promoted, Faithless rejected (always boarded out, casted twice in g1 never in the correct situation but both times as a bad cantrip). I am considering maindecking Lilianas again, or 4th copy of cabal OR FoW. I'd like to fit in 2Amalgams and a Narcomoeba but then I'd have to cut another copy of bolt, or therapy of Fow, and don't like any of these options. Moreover, the amalgams seem cute but I don't know if them not being evasive would matter in the end.
    Sideboard: no lands hate, except Perilous Voyage for Marit Lage, who could also hit Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void, since in this colors we don't have good ways of handling enchantments. Bitterblossom as another threat diversification against control strategies (also "infinite" chumpblock against Marit Lage, saving Sejiri trick). Impressions after testing: I troubled way more than expected against Surgical, I think I'll reconsider Silent Gravestone (as I already suggested even though the answers deemed it unnecessary).

    Tournament performance: I went 3-1 which was good for a 3rd place. I faced Humans (lost 1-2), Miracle (won 2-0), BUG Control/Midrange (won 2-1), Miracle (won 2-1). Found Miracle way harder than expected, between Terminus, Plowshares, Surgicals and Containment Priests.
    Humans I won G1 on the draw being able to FoW his Freeboter in order to protect the "combo" Ritual, Buried, Cantrip next turn. I then lost g2-3, nothing noteworthy.
    G1 against the first player with Miracle pretty strange, I was able to go for the "combo", protected by discard, early, but after a swing two phoenix were met with a Swords to Plowshares, the third being followed by a topdecked third copy of Swords to Plowshares. He was able to resolve a Counterbalance, to which I responded with a Lightning Bolt to the face Bringing him to 4 life. The game then went long, I tried a play every now and then to try and play around CB, he started beating with snapcaster, but at some point went to 3 life FoWing something on my side, and two turns before I died I was able to go Buried Alive, spell, spell to deal 3 fast damage with the last Phoenix.
    G2 on the contrary ended pretty fast, though I kept a bad hand like fetchland, pyroblast, thoughtseize, ponder, brainstorm, preordain, buried alive. I thought the game would go long and leave me time to find lands. I didn't start with a cantrip because I expected CB on his second turn, which I was able to counter with pyro. On my turn I was able to cantrip for land leaving ritual on top for the protected combo on turn three.

    I would gladly hear comments on how to sideboard and play in this matchup. I boarded out cabal therapies (I prefer hitting for sure with seize, expecially given the fact that the threats become too diverse with surgical, containment, fluster adding to FoW, counterspell, CB, ...), loothing (not only disadvantage but don't want to expose something to surgical too soon) and bolts. Though I am not sure if bolts could be useful in dealing with Containment (not so much as a form of "reach", I think).

    Against BUG I was able to race a Tarmogoyf with a fast "combo", though I immediately lost one phoenix to Assassin's Trophy and preferred to "waste" a combat dealing with Jace, in the end I was able to reanimate all 4 phoenixes and even overkill. I lost G2 to a removal on an hardcasted Phoenix + surgical, don't recall anything noteworthy G3.

    Against the last Miracle I lost game1 after going for the combo early... I started with a discard spell, he answered by brainstorming but while resolving it "accidentally" dropped back to basics on the table... seeing the coast was clear and being afraid of being locked out of the game by b2b I decided to go for ritual, buried alive, but of course he left a terminus on top. I should have expected and waited a turn. Playing with two lands only and NO RELIABLE RED SOURCES was hard and I was out of the game pretty soon, a single basic mountain would have helped but I don't see it upgrading the list more than worsening it. Thoughts on this?
    G2 he mulliganed to five and kept a no-land hand, scrying on top. I went for a thoughtseize turn 1, which saw snapcaster, plowshare, jace, fow and ponder. Even if I ended up taking the ponder I really thought about taking FoW since I had Bitterblossom and Liliana in hand, considering I expected the game to go long (and thus that he would eventually find lands, cantrip or not, which in fact is exactly what happened ). I proceeded to go Bitterblossom, which he FoWed pitching Jace, then Liliana which soon met a Council Judgement (pretty impressive for this kind of mulligan on his part) then I was able to go for the combo once again.
    G3 he terminused a lonely early pyromancer, I had surgical in hand as well as another pyromancer and active FoW. This second pyromancer was met by a Sword; my plan had been to go wide with tokens and surgical an eventual second terminus with miracle trigger on the stack, now I thought for a while and decided instead to don't Fow, let resolve, then go for surgical on plowshares. After a pretty long game this ended up being the winning decision when I was able to hardcast and resolve two phoenixes thus avoiding his surgical, then protect them from a tapped out terminus FoWing.

    That's all, apart from the changes I already suggested I liked the deck, even though maybe next time I'll try a Mardu version with Lingering Souls.

    Final question, in regard to "how to maximize dark ritual when you don't have the combo/attack from a different angle", has anybody thought of a couple of Dark Confidants instead of (or to supplement) Lilianas? A start of ritual, discard, confidant would seem strong too.

  13. #53
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    With forces and Phoenixes I can imagine the curve being brutal on your life Total at times with Bob.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    With forces and Phoenixes I can imagine the curve being brutal on your life Total at times with Bob.
    I wasn't necessarily suggesting to try Confidant in a build with FoW, but since we are in a developmental section, I think we can discuss freely if it could have sense as a way of exploiting an early ritual. Worst case a removal on him could open the way to a pyromancer and vice-versa.

    Anyway, the average CMC counting lands would be 1,2 in Whiteface build and 1,3 with 3 FoW (which by the way it's the same as a Jund pre-ban build, which played 4 Bob; for reference, in a typical Aggro Loam it's precisely 1), not so much of a difference and not so high imho.

    One could always consider Phyrexian Arena, we can discuss this if you like. Or Bitterblossom maindeck. I don't think we have an established optimal build already

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    I wasn't necessarily suggesting to try Confidant in a build with FoW, but since we are in a developmental section, I think we can discuss freely if it could have sense as a way of exploiting an early ritual. Worst case a removal on him could open the way to a pyromancer and vice-versa.

    Anyway, the average CMC counting lands would be 1,2 in Whiteface build and 1,3 with 3 FoW (which by the way it's the same as a Jund pre-ban build, which played 4 Bob; for reference, in a typical Aggro Loam it's precisely 1), not so much of a difference and not so high imho.

    One could always consider Phyrexian Arena, we can discuss this if you like. Or Bitterblossom maindeck. I don't think we have an established optimal build already
    Could also just straight up play nights whisper. It makes up the card disadvantage of ritual quickly and draws gas to trigger Phoenix as well as being card advantage that isn't Grave dependant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Hello everybody,
    just a quick report of my test yesterday (in our local store we don't play Friday Night Magic, we play swiss-only Saturday Afternoon Legacy ).

    I played this list:
    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Buried Alive
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Force of Will
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Faithless Looting
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    1 Cabal Therapy
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Bitterblossom
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Invasive Surgery
    1 Force of Will
    2 Abrade
    2 Perilous Voyage

    Choices explanation. Maindeck: no Lilianas, FoW, Faithless Loothing. Reasons: I expected a fair amount of combos, Liliana did not seem a good choice, FoW self explanatory given the premises. Loothing because I was afraid of having uncastable phoenix in hand.
    Impressions after testing: FoW promoted, Faithless rejected (always boarded out, casted twice in g1 never in the correct situation but both times as a bad cantrip). I am considering maindecking Lilianas again, or 4th copy of cabal OR FoW. I'd like to fit in 2Amalgams and a Narcomoeba but then I'd have to cut another copy of bolt, or therapy of Fow, and don't like any of these options. Moreover, the amalgams seem cute but I don't know if them not being evasive would matter in the end.
    Sideboard: no lands hate, except Perilous Voyage for Marit Lage, who could also hit Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void, since in this colors we don't have good ways of handling enchantments. Bitterblossom as another threat diversification against control strategies (also "infinite" chumpblock against Marit Lage, saving Sejiri trick). Impressions after testing: I troubled way more than expected against Surgical, I think I'll reconsider Silent Gravestone (as I already suggested even though the answers deemed it unnecessary).

    Tournament performance: I went 3-1 which was good for a 3rd place. I faced Humans (lost 1-2), Miracle (won 2-0), BUG Control/Midrange (won 2-1), Miracle (won 2-1). Found Miracle way harder than expected, between Terminus, Plowshares, Surgicals and Containment Priests.
    Humans I won G1 on the draw being able to FoW his Freeboter in order to protect the "combo" Ritual, Buried, Cantrip next turn. I then lost g2-3, nothing noteworthy.
    G1 against the first player with Miracle pretty strange, I was able to go for the "combo", protected by discard, early, but after a swing two phoenix were met with a Swords to Plowshares, the third being followed by a topdecked third copy of Swords to Plowshares. He was able to resolve a Counterbalance, to which I responded with a Lightning Bolt to the face Bringing him to 4 life. The game then went long, I tried a play every now and then to try and play around CB, he started beating with snapcaster, but at some point went to 3 life FoWing something on my side, and two turns before I died I was able to go Buried Alive, spell, spell to deal 3 fast damage with the last Phoenix.
    G2 on the contrary ended pretty fast, though I kept a bad hand like fetchland, pyroblast, thoughtseize, ponder, brainstorm, preordain, buried alive. I thought the game would go long and leave me time to find lands. I didn't start with a cantrip because I expected CB on his second turn, which I was able to counter with pyro. On my turn I was able to cantrip for land leaving ritual on top for the protected combo on turn three.

    I would gladly hear comments on how to sideboard and play in this matchup. I boarded out cabal therapies (I prefer hitting for sure with seize, expecially given the fact that the threats become too diverse with surgical, containment, fluster adding to FoW, counterspell, CB, ...), loothing (not only disadvantage but don't want to expose something to surgical too soon) and bolts. Though I am not sure if bolts could be useful in dealing with Containment (not so much as a form of "reach", I think).

    Against BUG I was able to race a Tarmogoyf with a fast "combo", though I immediately lost one phoenix to Assassin's Trophy and preferred to "waste" a combat dealing with Jace, in the end I was able to reanimate all 4 phoenixes and even overkill. I lost G2 to a removal on an hardcasted Phoenix + surgical, don't recall anything noteworthy G3.

    Against the last Miracle I lost game1 after going for the combo early... I started with a discard spell, he answered by brainstorming but while resolving it "accidentally" dropped back to basics on the table... seeing the coast was clear and being afraid of being locked out of the game by b2b I decided to go for ritual, buried alive, but of course he left a terminus on top. I should have expected and waited a turn. Playing with two lands only and NO RELIABLE RED SOURCES was hard and I was out of the game pretty soon, a single basic mountain would have helped but I don't see it upgrading the list more than worsening it. Thoughts on this?
    G2 he mulliganed to five and kept a no-land hand, scrying on top. I went for a thoughtseize turn 1, which saw snapcaster, plowshare, jace, fow and ponder. Even if I ended up taking the ponder I really thought about taking FoW since I had Bitterblossom and Liliana in hand, considering I expected the game to go long (and thus that he would eventually find lands, cantrip or not, which in fact is exactly what happened ). I proceeded to go Bitterblossom, which he FoWed pitching Jace, then Liliana which soon met a Council Judgement (pretty impressive for this kind of mulligan on his part) then I was able to go for the combo once again.
    G3 he terminused a lonely early pyromancer, I had surgical in hand as well as another pyromancer and active FoW. This second pyromancer was met by a Sword; my plan had been to go wide with tokens and surgical an eventual second terminus with miracle trigger on the stack, now I thought for a while and decided instead to don't Fow, let resolve, then go for surgical on plowshares. After a pretty long game this ended up being the winning decision when I was able to hardcast and resolve two phoenixes thus avoiding his surgical, then protect them from a tapped out terminus FoWing.

    That's all, apart from the changes I already suggested I liked the deck, even though maybe next time I'll try a Mardu version with Lingering Souls.

    Final question, in regard to "how to maximize dark ritual when you don't have the combo/attack from a different angle", has anybody thought of a couple of Dark Confidants instead of (or to supplement) Lilianas? A start of ritual, discard, confidant would seem strong too.
    3-1 is decent, nice one!

    I still haven't got around to testing Force of Will in the maindeck, just the sideboard and it was poor for me there. I found that this deck can really struggle with card disadvantage and especially pitching blue cards was tough, we want to be playing basically every cantrip, but maybe they deserve another look. I've been playing around with Dazes and they've felt OK.

    On Lilianas, Liliana of the Veil has been excellent vs combo for me.

    Good to see you've had the same impression as me for Faithless Looting. It's constantly suggested but is actually really poor in the deck.

    As cute as it is, and I've not tried it granted, but I'm still very wary of playing Amalgam and Narc. It's nice to have a turn one play with Ritual and Buried, but we don't have the two in our opener THAT often, and after turn one getting the phoenixes is clearly better, there is also the argument of not having the third spell but that is often not the case as the deck is flush with them, the downside is getting them really isn't that powerful for legacy. A couple of 3/3s and a 1/1 flyer aren't going to do much, and if you draw any one of them the 'combo' is severely hurt if it's an amalgam, or straight up cut off if it's the Narc.

    I'd suggest playing Echoing Truth over other bounce spells. It 'combos' with Cabal Therapy, you can bounce everything then name everything, it comes up a lot vs multiple hate pieces.

    I've not struggled vs Surgical, the only way I've found it hard to beat is if they either have a very fast clock on you and you're forced to make them have it, or if they Thoughtseize you and there's a Phoenix there and they get to Surgical them, which is still a 2-for-1 for you and you have Pyromancers to win with still. The deck does require you to be able to sequence discard well, know when to save them and not fire them off whenever in hand, often it's correct to wait. And Cabal Therapy more often than not you need to name to win, not to hit. But if you're having a hard time with that Silent Gravestone can help, I just see it as wasted sb slots honestly.

    Miracles I've found quite heavily favoured, but CB or Back to Basics is the way they can steal wins. Cabal Therapy is nuts in the matchup, I'd not recommend cutting them at all. From your list I'd be cutting the Lootings, Forces and maybe some Bolts though they're OK.

    On how to maximise Dark Ritual, that's why I've been playing Lilianas, they're pretty good!






    I played the Challenge again yesterday and managed to top 8, but punted the quarterfinals stupidly!

    2-1 vs ANT
    2-0 vs UB Omnitell
    2-1 vs Eldrazi
    1-2 vs Manaless Dredge
    2-1 vs Punishing Dack
    2-1 vs Eldrazi Post
    1-2 vs DnT

    5-2 and 5th seed going into T8

    1-2 vs Elves

    The punt was in game three, I had 4 lands in play, Ponder then Alive on Top of my library and a Cabal Therapy in the graveyard. Also had a Phoenix in play and the opponent was on 10 life. They had a stacked board of ~10 creatures and Cradle so just needed an action spell, I drew for turn to win and drew the Buried...not sure how but maybe I zoned out, I was sure I'd put Ponder on top as that was lethal. Ah well.

    Decklist



    Revelers I didn't draw much, I only played one and it was good, but otherwise they were sided out vs Combo. Hard to give much feedback.

    Lilianas were excellent, they really helped vs combo and Eldrazi especially.

    Dazes were decent but have a low floor really fast so I think 2 is the most you should play.

    I missed bolts, I'd like to get some back in the 75.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I still haven't got around to testing Force of Will (...) I found that this deck can really struggle with card disadvantage

    I've not struggled vs Surgical, the only way I've found it hard to beat is if they either have a very fast clock on you and you're forced to make them have it, or if they Thoughtseize you and there's a Phoenix there and they get to Surgical them

    Miracles I've found quite heavily favoured (...) Cabal Therapy is nuts in the matchup, I'd not recommend cutting them at all. From your list I'd be cutting the Lootings, Forces and maybe some Bolts though they're OK
    Congrats on your Challenge Finish.

    On FoW, maybe it's just me, but I don't like being prone to t1 plays and topdecks. From my small sample size, they won me at least two games.
    On Surgical, they can also go for removal + surgical. I don't think this deck can win on Pyromancer only, actually it seemed to me the floor was pretty low when you couldn't combo.
    On Miracle, would you care to describe you approach to the matchup? I don't see how it could be "so heavily" favoured between Plowshares, Terminus, Surgical and Contaiment (let alone if they are on a Mentor version). Same goes for cabal... since you can't kill with just one swing, I don't get how you can rely on playing it "to win" instead of "to hit"; it seems to me there are too many things that could wrong in order to let you name "the one and only" thing that kills you.

    On bolts, I see you regretted cutting them... why is so? I was actually thinking just that, they almost seem dead, the only things you care about are...? Thalia most definitely, protected flickerwisp, maybe strixes?

    Actually I was thinking the Night Whisper suggestion was worth a try (and was even thinking about Impulse).
    (oh and by the way what do you think about basic mountain?)

  18. #58

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I like the Reveler idea and maybe you can just replace Daze with Bolt again

  19. #59

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Admittedly I've only played it in modern, but I've been consistently impressed with reveler's ability to get you back in a game from behind. Will definitely be testing it once I pick up my phoenixes.

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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    3-1 is decent, nice one!

    I still haven't got around to testing Force of Will in the maindeck, just the sideboard and it was poor for me there. I found that this deck can really struggle with card disadvantage and especially pitching blue cards was tough, we want to be playing basically every cantrip, but maybe they deserve another look. I've been playing around with Dazes and they've felt OK.

    On Lilianas, Liliana of the Veil has been excellent vs combo for me.

    Good to see you've had the same impression as me for Faithless Looting. It's constantly suggested but is actually really poor in the deck.

    As cute as it is, and I've not tried it granted, but I'm still very wary of playing Amalgam and Narc. It's nice to have a turn one play with Ritual and Buried, but we don't have the two in our opener THAT often, and after turn one getting the phoenixes is clearly better, there is also the argument of not having the third spell but that is often not the case as the deck is flush with them, the downside is getting them really isn't that powerful for legacy. A couple of 3/3s and a 1/1 flyer aren't going to do much, and if you draw any one of them the 'combo' is severely hurt if it's an amalgam, or straight up cut off if it's the Narc.

    I'd suggest playing Echoing Truth over other bounce spells. It 'combos' with Cabal Therapy, you can bounce everything then name everything, it comes up a lot vs multiple hate pieces.

    I've not struggled vs Surgical, the only way I've found it hard to beat is if they either have a very fast clock on you and you're forced to make them have it, or if they Thoughtseize you and there's a Phoenix there and they get to Surgical them, which is still a 2-for-1 for you and you have Pyromancers to win with still. The deck does require you to be able to sequence discard well, know when to save them and not fire them off whenever in hand, often it's correct to wait. And Cabal Therapy more often than not you need to name to win, not to hit. But if you're having a hard time with that Silent Gravestone can help, I just see it as wasted sb slots honestly.

    Miracles I've found quite heavily favoured, but CB or Back to Basics is the way they can steal wins. Cabal Therapy is nuts in the matchup, I'd not recommend cutting them at all. From your list I'd be cutting the Lootings, Forces and maybe some Bolts though they're OK.

    On how to maximise Dark Ritual, that's why I've been playing Lilianas, they're pretty good!






    I played the Challenge again yesterday and managed to top 8, but punted the quarterfinals stupidly!

    2-1 vs ANT
    2-0 vs UB Omnitell
    2-1 vs Eldrazi
    1-2 vs Manaless Dredge
    2-1 vs Punishing Dack
    2-1 vs Eldrazi Post
    1-2 vs DnT

    5-2 and 5th seed going into T8

    1-2 vs Elves

    The punt was in game three, I had 4 lands in play, Ponder then Alive on Top of my library and a Cabal Therapy in the graveyard. Also had a Phoenix in play and the opponent was on 10 life. They had a stacked board of ~10 creatures and Cradle so just needed an action spell, I drew for turn to win and drew the Buried...not sure how but maybe I zoned out, I was sure I'd put Ponder on top as that was lethal. Ah well.

    Decklist



    Revelers I didn't draw much, I only played one and it was good, but otherwise they were sided out vs Combo. Hard to give much feedback.

    Lilianas were excellent, they really helped vs combo and Eldrazi especially.

    Dazes were decent but have a low floor really fast so I think 2 is the most you should play.

    I missed bolts, I'd like to get some back in the 75.

    Hi Whitefaces,

    Congrats on your nice finishes and thanks for pioneering this sweet deck.

    I was wondering if you had a sideboard guide that you used? I was wondering, for instance, about the Grim Lavamancers. Also, thoughts on/plans for playing against Chalice decks?

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