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Thread: Grixis Phoenix

  1. #101
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Baum View Post
    Just for the record: I tried out Thing in the Ice and it wasn't great. It's ok against decks like Eldrazi, but a real liability against control decks. Whitefaces suggested as much when we briefly talked about the deck in the Depths Discord. He was right ;)

    Last Sunday, I played a local 45 person event with Grixis (3 Pyromancer, 3 TITI) and the best thing TITI did was providing a sac outlet for a therapy flashback. I played against a lot of control decks and sided it out all the time. I went 4:2 in the swiss rounds:
    *
    2:0 UB Shadow
    0:2 Czech Pile (I could have won G1, had I played better)
    2:0 UW Stoneblade
    1:2 Grixis Control (Phoenix getting hit by a T2 Hymn and then extracted is slightly unfortunate :D)
    2:0 Burn
    2:0 UW RiP / Helm

    Then I got slaughtered by Eldrazi & Taxes in the Top 8. T1 Chalice, T2 Thalia followed by Eldrazi are a beating.

    The next card I'm going to try in Grixis is Counterbalance. A friend suggested CB when we were brainstorming ideas for the MD flex slots that are currently Tombstalkers or Lilianas. I was looking for a "threat" that's good against both fair blue and combo. I've got no idea if it's actually good, but it sounds nice in theory. Fun fact: Our Counterbalance curve is probably better than miracles against Sneak Show. Lots of threes and fours :D

    This is the 75 I'm going to try next. There are a couple of experimental cards I want to try out:

    4 Arclight Phoenix
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Counterbalance
    4 Buried Alive
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Daze
    2 Lightning Bolt
    1 Echoing Truth (I needed to free up SB slots)
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    Sideboard:
    2 Flusterstorm
    3 Surgical Extraction (maybe I'll go back to more crypts, but I'm sick of getting T1ed on the draw. If we ever get a turn, crypt is much better ofc)
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Rakdos Charm (It's probably too slow, but I wanted both 5 things that get rid of chalice and 5 pieces of gy hate)
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (maybe Jace is not necessary, but I wanted to have a payoff when I hide behind a bridge)
    2 Ensnaring Bridge


    Another question: How is the Death & Taxes matchup? I rarely see the deck at events and none of my local testing partners has it built, so I'm lacking practice.
    I'm still glad you tried it out, it's always best to see for yourself why someone doesn't like a card choice. It's entirely possible that I was wrong and my sample size wasn't big enough too, but I was pretty convinced Titi didn't fit in the deck, despite on the surface it looks great.

    So T8ing with a handicap like that is impressive Well done!

    Hymn into Surgical like that is annoying, part of the game loss from my event on Sunday vs Grixis was similar, discard + Surgical on Phoenix. But I also punted on taking the wrong card on a Thoughtseize too, so my bad.

    Counterbalance is a cool idea, I like it. Please let me know how it goes, I'm interested in trying it too.

    I also like the Etruth in the main a lot, I've even played two sometimes, it's great. You should try Tombstalkers too though if you haven't already, I've been really impressed with them. I talked to most of my opponents after the match was over and Grixis Control saw YP but no Stalkers, so they sided out Strix and died to the flying beats. Then Esper Mentor saw Stalkers and didn't board in sweepers but left Strix and Plows, and died to YP etc. Throw Liliana in the mix and it's so hard to sb well vs this deck.

    DnT is pretty good for us I think, we do need to try and be fast though. We're able to play a slow game too but they will have some kind of inevitability. I've won a lot of sb games with Lili last Hope too, she makes the matchup considerably better. So I'd guess at maybe 60-40, but really it's pretty close and quite hand dependent.

    I do like your idea of Bridges and more PWers too, YP is also a nice win con while sitting behind a bridge and getting an army together. Was this the first event you tried the configuration?
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  2. #102
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    This is a very rough but proposed list to try Dark Confidant in Esper, hopefully I'll have some time to try it online soon. I'm still very unsure if Esper should be playing basics or not.

    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Monastery Mentor
    4 Arclight Phoenix

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Daze

    2 Tundra
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    1 Volcanic Island
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Marsh Flats

    1 Serenity
    2 Disenchant
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Plains
    2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  3. #103

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Alright, so I've started writing some changes to the primer. Mostly just updating information with what we've learnt since the deck started, though the core has pretty much stayed the same still. And I'll talk about the Esper build too.



    Vs ANT and SnS I would be keeping all Petals personally, without Force of Will we need all the tempo we can get I think. As well as cantripping into disruption to play the same turn/get off a faster combo. While they are a faster combo deck than us, it doesn't mean we should slow ourselves down then because we, usually, can't win on that axis. From Esper it lets you play a faster Kambal too.



    Nice post! Again, sorry I've been so absent here lately.

    Reanimator: I agree with what you're saying. I've gotten to play it more and more since posting last and I think combo is the way to go over Mentor. I've had them Reanimate a Phoenix and that's fine, we get our own, they need to block then it comes back etc. But if you do get to test with Mentors > combo I think we'd need a lot more permission spells. It's possible, but with how the deck is now I think combo is better. The other thing to keep in mind is if you're on Grixis or Esper, as in Mentor is really scary for them to Reanimate, YP a bit less so.

    ANT/TES: I actually still prefer the combo side I think, but it has to be in conjunction with the Tormod's Crypt 'plan'. If you are not playing enough Crypts/heavy GY hate then this doesn't work. The way I build decks to fight ANT is by attacking two of their 'pillars'. They have 3 avenues to win usually, they are PiF which is the most common, Ad Nauseum and tutor loop. I like to attack two of these. Those are in order of ease for them to pull off, by having Crypt we (most of the time) take away the PiF kill. By getting a quick combo and hitting them for 9 Ad Nauseum is usually off, especially considering their md configs, that leaves them usually with the tutor chain option which more often than not requires multiple threshed Cabal Rits and LEDs, it also needs a density of spells in hand which we attack with discard. So with all that said, that's my plan vs ANT currently, I'm very positive in the matchup while going for this. I lose almost every single game one, then win post board unless I whiff on Crypt.

    SnS/Omnitell: These have been really high variance matchups for me, it's often just come down to how good both our hands are. The matchups are winnable but I think we're slightly unfavoured, especially if they have Leyline of Sanctity, that just takes away our main interaction and not a whole lot more to say on it. I like to bring in ETruth/Disenchant vs all versions, so there's at least that. I prefer YP/Mentor over the combo in these matchups usually because they have Pierce/Flusters which can disrupt our combo, and our discard usually can't afford to take reactive cards.

    Mirror: Yep, mirror is a bit nuts. Crypt also shines here imo, since they can't discard it and stops them comboing. But still have to respect YP/Mentor too, it's high variance. That's the power of this combo too, you can go off from basically nothing.

    Shadow: I agree it's the easiest one, have been getting good results vs it with both versions.

    Grixis Delver: This is the matchup that really put me off Esper since it's quite popular online especially, the difference between trying to resolve 3cmc threat vs 2 is the world of difference. In the matches I played it just felt like there were too many things to discard, and Wasteland was more backbreaking than usual. Not sure though, maybe I need to try it more.

    RUG: Like Shadow I've found this a lot easier than Grixis, as long as you don't get mana screwed by stifle waste etc you should be able to pick apart their hand and combo.



    I would Mentor off Island, yeah. Wastelanding into an on board Mentor seems maniacal, but they're so far behind already they might figure they need to get lucky.



    Hey, glad you're enjoying the deck!

    I've only played a couple of mirrors so far, so take it with a grain of salt, but I like what your opponent did. It's like a weird Jund mirror where you want to maximise topdecks, so I'd be taking out all Thoughtseizes and probably some Therapy. I also don't like Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce so much because of looking to get better topdecks.

    I would go

    -2 Lili Veil
    -4 Thoughtseize
    -1 Cabal Therapy

    +3 Tormod's Crypt
    +2 Surgical
    +2 Abrade

    Maybe the second Surgical is a bit too heavy boarding vs the combo and you should just bring in 1 and keep a TS or the last Therapy, not sure there.



    Nice one, 4-2 is good for a first time with this deck!

    Funny match two! That's how I've lost to Stoneblade before too, kinda sucks when the deck is full of cantrips but happens. I would play more if there were more good ones honestly.

    1. It's certainly got a higher ceiling, though I think it's less consistent than Grixis. I've been back on Grixis recently for that reason, but there are certainly pros and cons to both.
    2. Makes sense, I could see trying trimming down on a Mentor, they can be bad in multiples.
    3. Try Spell Pierce, I've tested 1-2 in the main in both Grixis and Esper and they were pretty good.
    4. Interesting. I don't like the card generally, but let us know if it performs OK.
    5. Definitely, I still haven't gotten round to trying bridge, but in theory I like it.



    Nice one! Promising results, I think Miracles is a pretty good matchup too. Good luck at the 1K, and please do!

    On Esper, some people have suggested and are trying Dark Confidant. I think it has potential since it bridges the gap of the deck where we want some more powerful plays with fast mana, as well as raw card advantage. I think the damage it might take flipping Phoenixes/Buried/Mentor etc is fine. Something I'll be testing too.





    And after all that, back to what I've been up to with the deck!

    Like I said a little above, I've gone back to playing with Grixis since I think the consistency is important for the deck, though the idea of Dark Confidant has really spurred my interest in Esper again.

    With Grixis I've played it at my last two weeklies and gone 3-1 both times, losses to ANT and Moon Stompy. And I played it at our London Monthly tournament on Sunday and went 4-0 double ID into top seed of the swiss, but then lost to Elves in the quarters, unfortunately it was the only matchup in the top 8 I feel like the deck is unfavoured vs. I had 1 E Plague and 2 Lili Last Hope, but they weren't enough/didn't draw the Plague. Still was happy with the result, the matchups previously were

    2-1 vs Grixis Control
    2-0 vs Esper Mentor
    2-0 vs UB Shadow
    2-0 vs SnS

    Tombstalkers have been an addition from some friends online also playing the deck (Cartesian and ewlandon) which has been excellent. These going tall, YP going wide and the combo being gy centric really makes it hard for the opponents to sideboard, all their answers are so situational so with discard we're able to pick things apart.

    List from Sunday

    3 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    2 Tombstalker

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    3 Lightning Bolt
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Daze

    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    4 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Abrade
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    I have been playing with Tombstalker as well, but only one. I'm running two Liliana of the Veil and one TS in the main. Everytime, a TS goes unanswered, I win. I think TS definitely has a permanent home in this deck. The LotV is more of a local meta choice, but could also be good for a bigger tournament.

    Would you mind explaining why you think 1 daze and 1 lotus petal is good? What matches is Goblin Cratermaker good in except for S&S and any deck with artifacts or artifact creatures? I was also considering running a 10th fetch over the 3rd Volcanic Island. It's a minor difference, but in the situations where it would matter or make a difference, it would be a huge.

  4. #104
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by ButterTime View Post
    I have been playing with Tombstalker as well, but only one. I'm running two Liliana of the Veil and one TS in the main. Everytime, a TS goes unanswered, I win. I think TS definitely has a permanent home in this deck. The LotV is more of a local meta choice, but could also be good for a bigger tournament.

    Would you mind explaining why you think 1 daze and 1 lotus petal is good? What matches is Goblin Cratermaker good in except for S&S and any deck with artifacts or artifact creatures? I was also considering running a 10th fetch over the 3rd Volcanic Island. It's a minor difference, but in the situations where it would matter or make a difference, it would be a huge.
    Yeah I agree, Stalker has been a house, I've been extremely happy with two copies so far. Liliana of the Veil was also very good for me when I was playing her, she's just kinda fallen by the wayside while trying other things in those slots. She's excelled vs combo where you can try and take away critical mass, Storm and SnS especially. But also had some nice application vs creature decks too.

    I'll be honest, I couldn't decide on whether to play 2 Daze or 2 Petal but was happy with the rest of the deck so went with the 1/1 split. Partly to see which one performs better when I drew them, and I don't think the deck often wants to draw more than one most games. I barely drew the Petal, but Daze did a lot of work, I think we've spoken about Daze numbers somewhere in this thread but 2 is feeling like a nice number. 2 Petal is also a good number I think, and the deck can afford to cut a land for that at least, down to 17.

    Goblin Cratermaker is for Eldrazi and DnT mostly, while still being fine vs Moon Stompy as well. Eldrazi I was struggling balancing answers to their lock pieces vs threats, sometimes they're playing a 'fair' game with a lot of creatures but just one lock piece, sometimes they overload on hate and just have one threat etc. Killing Endbringer especially was my thinking for the card, but it's still early days in trying it out. It's quite flexible, I'd bring it in vs any chalice deck, dnt, delver, SnS (if there are enough medium cards to board out), possibly even ANT to kill LEDs/attack for 2 but maybe that's loose.

    I would play 3 Volcs if you're playing Bedlam Reveler, otherwise 2 is fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  5. #105

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Yeah I agree, Stalker has been a house, I've been extremely happy with two copies so far. Liliana of the Veil was also very good for me when I was playing her, she's just kinda fallen by the wayside while trying other things in those slots. She's excelled vs combo where you can try and take away critical mass, Storm and SnS especially. But also had some nice application vs creature decks too.

    I'll be honest, I couldn't decide on whether to play 2 Daze or 2 Petal but was happy with the rest of the deck so went with the 1/1 split. Partly to see which one performs better when I drew them, and I don't think the deck often wants to draw more than one most games. I barely drew the Petal, but Daze did a lot of work, I think we've spoken about Daze numbers somewhere in this thread but 2 is feeling like a nice number. 2 Petal is also a good number I think, and the deck can afford to cut a land for that at least, down to 17.

    Goblin Cratermaker is for Eldrazi and DnT mostly, while still being fine vs Moon Stompy as well. Eldrazi I was struggling balancing answers to their lock pieces vs threats, sometimes they're playing a 'fair' game with a lot of creatures but just one lock piece, sometimes they overload on hate and just have one threat etc. Killing Endbringer especially was my thinking for the card, but it's still early days in trying it out. It's quite flexible, I'd bring it in vs any chalice deck, dnt, delver, SnS (if there are enough medium cards to board out), possibly even ANT to kill LEDs/attack for 2 but maybe that's loose.

    I would play 3 Volcs if you're playing Bedlam Reveler, otherwise 2 is fine.
    I use to play Team America (BUG Delver) a lot and TS was a house. It was always the nut draw and homerun win. The fact that he flies is relevant in so many situations. Yes, you have previously spoken about 2 dazes being the corrent number. I don't know about petal though, it gives the opportunity for more explosive games, but it is a terrible late game draw in most situations. I lose most of the time when the game goes longer and I draw poorly or whif on my cantrips. I will try the 1/1 split and the 2 daze version a few times each just to see how they feel. I'll definitely be playing Gobline Cratermaker in my sideboard though.

    Do you think 3 yp's in the main is the correct number or are you testing out the 3 to see how it feels?

  6. #106
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by ButterTime View Post
    I use to play Team America (BUG Delver) a lot and TS was a house. It was always the nut draw and homerun win. The fact that he flies is relevant in so many situations. Yes, you have previously spoken about 2 dazes being the corrent number. I don't know about petal though, it gives the opportunity for more explosive games, but it is a terrible late game draw in most situations. I lose most of the time when the game goes longer and I draw poorly or whif on my cantrips. I will try the 1/1 split and the 2 daze version a few times each just to see how they feel. I'll definitely be playing Gobline Cratermaker in my sideboard though.

    Do you think 3 yp's in the main is the correct number or are you testing out the 3 to see how it feels?
    Petal does have a low floor, they've been quite impressive though. Better than I originally expected at least, I recommend trying a couple like you say and see how it goes.

    I'm not sure on the YP number, 3 is mostly trying out to see if I miss the 4th. So far it's been fine and previously they could get awkward in multiples when you just wanted spells, but I'm not certain it's right.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  7. #107
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    I do like your idea of Bridges and more PWers too, YP is also a nice win con while sitting behind a bridge and getting an army together. Was this the first event you tried the configuration?
    So far, the SB plan with Bridges is untested. I don't think Bridge would have played well together with the TITIs I ran at the last event
    I'm going to play a small tournament at a LGS on Saturday and test the new list.

    Regarding Tombstalker: A friend of mine tested it at the tournament last Sunday and liked it so far. I could see cutting the 4th Pyromancer for a Tombstalker in the CB list. It's pretty great that we are three people who test Phoenix at our local events, so everyone can try out other stuff. Fun fact: Phoenix was one of the most played deck on Sunday... Below are the decks with 3 or more players

    4 Grixis Control & Czech Pile
    4 Show & Tell
    3 Grixis Phoenix
    3 Lands
    3 Stoneblade

  8. #108
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Alright, so I've started writing some changes to the primer. Mostly just updating information with what we've learnt since the deck started, though the core has pretty much stayed the same still. And I'll talk about the Esper build too.



    Vs ANT and SnS I would be keeping all Petals personally, without Force of Will we need all the tempo we can get I think. As well as cantripping into disruption to play the same turn/get off a faster combo. While they are a faster combo deck than us, it doesn't mean we should slow ourselves down then because we, usually, can't win on that axis. From Esper it lets you play a faster Kambal too.



    Nice post! Again, sorry I've been so absent here lately.

    Reanimator: I agree with what you're saying. I've gotten to play it more and more since posting last and I think combo is the way to go over Mentor. I've had them Reanimate a Phoenix and that's fine, we get our own, they need to block then it comes back etc. But if you do get to test with Mentors > combo I think we'd need a lot more permission spells. It's possible, but with how the deck is now I think combo is better. The other thing to keep in mind is if you're on Grixis or Esper, as in Mentor is really scary for them to Reanimate, YP a bit less so.

    ANT/TES: I actually still prefer the combo side I think, but it has to be in conjunction with the Tormod's Crypt 'plan'. If you are not playing enough Crypts/heavy GY hate then this doesn't work. The way I build decks to fight ANT is by attacking two of their 'pillars'. They have 3 avenues to win usually, they are PiF which is the most common, Ad Nauseum and tutor loop. I like to attack two of these. Those are in order of ease for them to pull off, by having Crypt we (most of the time) take away the PiF kill. By getting a quick combo and hitting them for 9 Ad Nauseum is usually off, especially considering their md configs, that leaves them usually with the tutor chain option which more often than not requires multiple threshed Cabal Rits and LEDs, it also needs a density of spells in hand which we attack with discard. So with all that said, that's my plan vs ANT currently, I'm very positive in the matchup while going for this. I lose almost every single game one, then win post board unless I whiff on Crypt.

    SnS/Omnitell: These have been really high variance matchups for me, it's often just come down to how good both our hands are. The matchups are winnable but I think we're slightly unfavoured, especially if they have Leyline of Sanctity, that just takes away our main interaction and not a whole lot more to say on it. I like to bring in ETruth/Disenchant vs all versions, so there's at least that. I prefer YP/Mentor over the combo in these matchups usually because they have Pierce/Flusters which can disrupt our combo, and our discard usually can't afford to take reactive cards.

    Mirror: Yep, mirror is a bit nuts. Crypt also shines here imo, since they can't discard it and stops them comboing. But still have to respect YP/Mentor too, it's high variance. That's the power of this combo too, you can go off from basically nothing.

    Shadow: I agree it's the easiest one, have been getting good results vs it with both versions.

    Grixis Delver: This is the matchup that really put me off Esper since it's quite popular online especially, the difference between trying to resolve 3cmc threat vs 2 is the world of difference. In the matches I played it just felt like there were too many things to discard, and Wasteland was more backbreaking than usual. Not sure though, maybe I need to try it more.

    RUG: Like Shadow I've found this a lot easier than Grixis, as long as you don't get mana screwed by stifle waste etc you should be able to pick apart their hand and combo.



    I would Mentor off Island, yeah. Wastelanding into an on board Mentor seems maniacal, but they're so far behind already they might figure they need to get lucky.



    Hey, glad you're enjoying the deck!

    I've only played a couple of mirrors so far, so take it with a grain of salt, but I like what your opponent did. It's like a weird Jund mirror where you want to maximise topdecks, so I'd be taking out all Thoughtseizes and probably some Therapy. I also don't like Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce so much because of looking to get better topdecks.

    I would go

    -2 Lili Veil
    -4 Thoughtseize
    -1 Cabal Therapy

    +3 Tormod's Crypt
    +2 Surgical
    +2 Abrade

    Maybe the second Surgical is a bit too heavy boarding vs the combo and you should just bring in 1 and keep a TS or the last Therapy, not sure there.



    Nice one, 4-2 is good for a first time with this deck!

    Funny match two! That's how I've lost to Stoneblade before too, kinda sucks when the deck is full of cantrips but happens. I would play more if there were more good ones honestly.

    1. It's certainly got a higher ceiling, though I think it's less consistent than Grixis. I've been back on Grixis recently for that reason, but there are certainly pros and cons to both.
    2. Makes sense, I could see trying trimming down on a Mentor, they can be bad in multiples.
    3. Try Spell Pierce, I've tested 1-2 in the main in both Grixis and Esper and they were pretty good.
    4. Interesting. I don't like the card generally, but let us know if it performs OK.
    5. Definitely, I still haven't gotten round to trying bridge, but in theory I like it.



    Nice one! Promising results, I think Miracles is a pretty good matchup too. Good luck at the 1K, and please do!

    On Esper, some people have suggested and are trying Dark Confidant. I think it has potential since it bridges the gap of the deck where we want some more powerful plays with fast mana, as well as raw card advantage. I think the damage it might take flipping Phoenixes/Buried/Mentor etc is fine. Something I'll be testing too.





    And after all that, back to what I've been up to with the deck!

    Like I said a little above, I've gone back to playing with Grixis since I think the consistency is important for the deck, though the idea of Dark Confidant has really spurred my interest in Esper again.

    With Grixis I've played it at my last two weeklies and gone 3-1 both times, losses to ANT and Moon Stompy. And I played it at our London Monthly tournament on Sunday and went 4-0 double ID into top seed of the swiss, but then lost to Elves in the quarters, unfortunately it was the only matchup in the top 8 I feel like the deck is unfavoured vs. I had 1 E Plague and 2 Lili Last Hope, but they weren't enough/didn't draw the Plague. Still was happy with the result, the matchups previously were

    2-1 vs Grixis Control
    2-0 vs Esper Mentor
    2-0 vs UB Shadow
    2-0 vs SnS

    Tombstalkers have been an addition from some friends online also playing the deck (Cartesian and ewlandon) which has been excellent. These going tall, YP going wide and the combo being gy centric really makes it hard for the opponents to sideboard, all their answers are so situational so with discard we're able to pick things apart.

    List from Sunday

    3 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    2 Tombstalker

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    3 Lightning Bolt
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Daze

    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    4 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Abrade
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope

    First of all really nice to hear that you doing a Primer. We try to help you with the testing and Choices! Thank you very much.

    About the Combo Decks.

    Reanimate:
    I agree really here and i feel it's the way to go here. Lock them with crypt/discard or a backup counter and just win with the fast combo.

    ANT/TES:
    Also here i tested and was thinking more and its basically the same logic as Reanimate. If you can do them the early 9 dmg + a hate its really good. The thing is what happens if you play too much control as ok control deck is that ant still wins because its made to beat control.

    SNT:
    Still never played it, since i play my newer list sadly, but i feel a fast combo + heavy discard is the key. I bring in 2 disenchant. Mentor is probably better here because they can go off 2 turn but i see them slower as storm because they're combo is more clunky in a way.
    so mentor + discard gets also really good if they don't have leyline.

    Delver Decks:
    I have to say i played now against all version and if they don't have nuts you normally can play through it with well timed discard+daze into the combo.
    Also against Grixis i made a good Experience where i tested against a good Friend, who is a well Legacy Player and he piloted the Deck. EE helps as well to slow the Delver because this was the card that mostly killed me.

    Cardchoices:

    Daze:

    To be Honest i don't think it matters in which version you play the Card. Daze clearly overperformed and it supports the Gameplan really good! For me it's clearly a 4 off. I think what people forget to ,,bring the combo fast out as possible,, is the most important part about the Deck. Even to Protect a slow gameplan with mentor or pyro is nice or to surprise the opponent just makes the Card even more stronger. I think to play it as a 2 off is just not right and it feels really random. I mean the whole Deck is so consistent, why take out a consistent Protection Spell for the Gameplan?

    Lotus Petal:

    Clearly more played in the Esper Version. I don't think it's that a big deal here to go to 3. Its like with the UB Reanimation lists basically. I think go to 3 is fine, if you wanna play Cards like Lili or Tombstalker. Still really important Card and it supports the Gameplan a lot.

    Basics:

    Mainly island and swamp. Yes it's needed. A t1 wasteland can take us out of the Game. Specially in tempo Match ups. it's soo important to land the island or the swamp first to play something. Always remember that maybe the t2 with 2 lands cantrip or discard into DR+Buried is GG. i really think we should not touch that. I also feel Plains is not needed. Petal can make us the mana aswell. Just to play a plains for some SB Cards seems like a wasted slot. I'm just not a fun of using duals or basics in a sideboard.Or then at least with the other 2 basics that you can play 1 of each on the field. This brings us to the next one..

    Swords to plowshares/Path to exile

    ..First if you gonna fight creature decks they probably play Wasteland so yeah maybe it seems ok to play a plains in the sideboard with cards like that. Is a removal like that needed in a Esper list? If yes i would go for path. Why? The Life matters a lot here actually and i think in the match up we take them in (Eldrazi, Delver, Dephts and maybe something like Dnt/Humans), it does not matter to give them a basic if they have it, along if its not Dnt. This brings us to the other question. Do we need to fight hatebear deck like DnT/Humans? Do we wanna take out consistency or just wanna have a fast combo plan even faster if we add Lili, last hope. I made the experience 8 discard + 4 daze+ 2 Lili last hope is in the normal case enough. They will not always have a Thalia or other t2 hatebear. It needs a lot to go wrong with the discard or the combo. i see the only real reason is dark depths.If its popular in your meta, i probably gonna play 2 path to exile. I go with the Philosophy fast Combo is the way to go.

    Lili, the last Hope:
    absolutly insane and it's the 3 win condition.Best SB Card for sure.T1 it mostly wins games by itself. We even can protect her with Discard and Daze.


    New Cardchoices:

    Dark Confidant
    I like that a lot! i gonna test him aswell. It seems like a sweet card that supports basically everything we need as a gameplay. Supports Ritual into discard, CA and he makes dmg to the oppenent.

    Tombstalker:

    what i like about him?
    Strong Body and in a way hard to kill him.
    Probably better in the Grixis version because this version does not have power like mentor.

    What i dont like?
    It does not support the Combo Plan. Of course it depends what you cut for him.
    maybe clunky in some hands, board states?

    Counterbalance:
    This was one of the first SB cards i played. I cutten it because i think there are better cards. We are not certainly a CA Deck like Miracle. Also we do not really support this Plan. The Cantrips get used for finding Combo Pieces mainly.
    It provides us to do suboptimal plays.Do we wanna take the consistency away if we play CB Main? Also CB is not good against all Decks. I feel like there are stronger cards that have a better impact for this Deck.

    Why i see Esper Phoenix over the Grixis Version?

    For me it's clearly the Power of Mentor which allows us to finish games quickly when he's not getting handled. To be Honest it's probably the Harder version to play. I see the Manabase and the add of bolt for some annoying stuff like Delver or Thalia if you not got the answer in the Grixis Version but also i see the lack of finishing Games with pyromancer when it comes to win without the combo. I wrote some things now and i saw cards like Tombstalker for a adding clock. Seems good in a way but is not better if you just play Grixis Control then? it's just a brainstorming but for me it seems the Deck tries more to control instead to Combo. It loses with the Lack of lotus petal on tempo plays like t1 or t2 Combo or Mentor/Lili what can be a huge difference to win a game. In the End the add of white gives better SB-Cards like Disenchant, Kambal or STP/Path.

    So i hope i wrote down everything i had in my mind. It's probably not perfectly written but i hope some people can take notes out of that. It's really based on my analysis.

    Greets and have fun to Play

    Pascal
    Last edited by Pdingo; 01-31-2019 at 06:41 AM.

  9. #109

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I played grixis phoenix last night at my local game store and went 3-1. My list:

    3 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    1 Tombstalker

    2 Liliana of the Veil

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    3 Lightning Bolt

    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    3 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    2 Blood Moon
    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Pithing Needle

    I wanted to use Liliana, the Last Hope, echoing truth, and Alpine Moon, but my cards didn't come in the mail on time because of the cold weather.

    Round 1: Dredge, won in 3, both sideboard games. He won the die roll and basically had the best turn 1 ever, killed me on turn 2. Games two in 3 I was much faster in conjunction with my SB cards.

    Round 2: Eva Green 1-2, I won one, game two I got wastelanded, sinkholed, and he played a Liliana, the last hope off a dark ritual. Games three my opponent killed my tombstalker with a assassin's trophy. That is definently a hard matchup. I would have won if it wasn't for the trophy.

    Round 3: BUG control 2-0: turn 1 and turn 2 buried alive, was able to protect the turn two with discard. My opponent forced my buried alive, but I cast flusterstorm for the 3rd spell.

    Round 4: Dead Guy Ale /w Terminus, 2-1. Won game 1 and 3, game 2 I lost to discard and force of will and wasteland. I didn't see the wasteland in game one and just assumed he wasn't playing them.

    Overall, I really like Liliana of the Veil in the main deck, tombstalker on the other hand is an amazing card, but it doesn't support the combo plan or protect the combo either. I only ran it as a 1 of and he was always answered. Liliana synergizes very well with our game plan. She can be played off a dark ritual, she can source to discard phoenix, she can answer true-name nemesis, good against S&S and reanimator. I think this decks worst matchup is turbo depths or any depths deck in general. What do you guys think of mission briefing, careful study or even manamorphose in the grixis version? I know the UR version plays all of those cards.
    Last edited by ButterTime; 01-31-2019 at 11:35 PM.

  10. #110
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    What I find really interesting, is that there seem to be two schools of thought about how to play the deck. Some comments about cards like Counterbalance or Tombstalker mention that they don't support our game plan and that we should try to be as streamlined as possible. TBH I think that philosophy is somewhat flawed. I believe the strength of decks like Phoenix is that they have a combo element, but can easily incorporate midrange or control aspects to make life awkward for the opponent. It's similar to decks like Food Chain. If we just focus on comboing as fast as possible, we are doing a worse job than Storm, Reanimator or Sneak & Show. I think we should really try to find the perfect middle ground between playing fair and unfair.
    Last edited by Baum; 02-01-2019 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Formatting

  11. #111
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Baum View Post
    What I find really interesting, is that there seem to be two schools of thought about how to play the deck. Some comments about cards like Counterbalance or Tombstalker mention that they don't support our game plan and that we should try to be as streamlined as possible. TBH I think that philosophy is somewhat flawed. I believe the strength of decks like Phoenix is that they have a combo element, but can easily incorporate midrange or control aspects to make life awkward for the opponent. It's similar to decks like Food Chain. If we just focus on comboing as fast as possible, we are doing a worse job than Storm, Reanimator or Sneak & Show. I think we should really try to find the perfect middle ground between playing fair and unfair.
    I agree with cards like tombstalker that its a good additional clock and a win option. But with CB its really different and i really dont think the fits the deck well.

    1. There are reason why decks like grixis/delver/ant not play CB even if they could support it somehow. The thing is CB is clunky. It's a own card and even it's on the field it can be a dead card. We don't have the luxury to play the cantrip suboptimal because we have to find either a creature/Pw that wins or a combo piece. Same is with delver or storm decks. CB is so good in miracle because the CA-Generator work so well with all the cantrips(they can play land go and just wait)+ they have more CA cards like predict JTMS or AK. Even if you use the BS to counter the removal or the cantrip of the oppenent it's just not enough CA that wins us a game.
    2. It use a slot in the deck and i think the slots are important. Is it not just better to play more daze or even a clock like maybe tombstalker then?
    3. Its really not good against the most decks atm. Specially without more library manipulation. And i really dont want to play it and just hope that cards get countered randomly.
    I really think actuall win cons or clocks fitts the deck better.

  12. #112
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    First of all really nice to hear that you doing a Primer. We try to help you with the testing and Choices! Thank you very much.

    Excellent, I’ll definitely be looking to you guys for some help. I’m not having as much time as I did before to test the deck, so your reports on how cards are playing is invaluable.

    About the Combo Decks.

    Reanimate:
    I agree really here and i feel it's the way to go here. Lock them with crypt/discard or a backup counter and just win with the fast combo.

    ANT/TES:
    Also here i tested and was thinking more and its basically the same logic as Reanimate. If you can do them the early 9 dmg + a hate its really good. The thing is what happens if you play too much control as ok control deck is that ant still wins because its made to beat control.

    Glad we’re on the same page for these matchups 😊

    SNT:
    Still never played it, since i play my newer list sadly, but i feel a fast combo + heavy discard is the key. I bring in 2 disenchant. Mentor is probably better here because they can go off 2 turn but i see them slower as storm because they're combo is more clunky in a way.
    so mentor + discard gets also really good if they don't have leyline.

    Makes sense, like I said above while we have some decent tools with discard and daze etc, there’s not a whole lot we can do vs their best hands. I did think about what sb options we have that are heavier vs them, I even considered Containment Priest despite it being bad with Phoenix/es, but SnS isn’t played anywhere near enough to do that. Meddling Mage is another option for combo, though. I think it was suggested by someone in this thread.

    Delver Decks:
    I have to say i played now against all version and if they don't have nuts you normally can play through it with well timed discard+daze into the combo.
    Also against Grixis i made a good Experience where i tested against a good Friend, who is a well Legacy Player and he piloted the Deck. EE helps as well to slow the Delver because this was the card that mostly killed me.

    OK fair enough, maybe they’re not as bad as I was experiencing. I could have played them poorly too, at least one of them I experimented with siding most of the combo out to see how reliable or not Mentor was, that’s probably a mistake. So we can attribute some pilot error/trying out different sbing strategies.

    Cardchoices:

    Daze:

    To be Honest i don't think it matters in which version you play the Card. Daze clearly overperformed and it supports the Gameplan really good! For me it's clearly a 4 off. I think what people forget to ,,bring the combo fast out as possible,, is the most important part about the Deck. Even to Protect a slow gameplan with mentor or pyro is nice or to surprise the opponent just makes the Card even more stronger. I think to play it as a 2 off is just not right and it feels really random. I mean the whole Deck is so consistent, why take out a consistent Protection Spell for the Gameplan?

    I’ve had some poor experiences with it too, especially in multiples. While our curve is fairly low we can still struggle if you’re using them in successive turns in the early game, we also don’t have Wasteland to keep them live for too long. For these reasons I’m still feeling like two is a good number, but I’m open to being wrong on that. The card can certainly be absurd, and I do feel like Esper using it slightly better than Grixis because it’s more explosive and has more fast mana usually.

    Lotus Petal:

    Clearly more played in the Esper Version. I don't think it's that a big deal here to go to 3. Its like with the UB Reanimation lists basically. I think go to 3 is fine, if you wanna play Cards like Lili or Tombstalker. Still really important Card and it supports the Gameplan a lot.

    Makes sense, I could see trying 3 for sure, I’ll test that as well. Though if we add Bob it gets a bit better.

    Basics:

    Mainly island and swamp. Yes it's needed. A t1 wasteland can take us out of the Game. Specially in tempo Match ups. it's soo important to land the island or the swamp first to play something. Always remember that maybe the t2 with 2 lands cantrip or discard into DR+Buried is GG. i really think we should not touch that. I also feel Plains is not needed. Petal can make us the mana aswell. Just to play a plains for some SB Cards seems like a wasted slot. I'm just not a fun of using duals or basics in a sideboard.Or then at least with the other 2 basics that you can play 1 of each on the field. This brings us to the next one..

    Makes sense on basics, this is probably the thing I’m least sure on in the deck but I’m inclined to agree with you, it really hedges up the Wasteland matchups. Plains I think is still valuable to play, I don’t see it as a wasted sb slot, I think the card is too bad to play in the main (though it could be tried) but the basic is pretty high impact in the matchups where we want a lot of our sb cards. Notably Moon Stompy, DnT, Lands/Aggro Loam etc.

    Swords to plowshares/Path to exile

    ..First if you gonna fight creature decks they probably play Wasteland so yeah maybe it seems ok to play a plains in the sideboard with cards like that. Is a removal like that needed in a Esper list? If yes i would go for path. Why? The Life matters a lot here actually and i think in the match up we take them in (Eldrazi, Delver, Dephts and maybe something like Dnt/Humans), it does not matter to give them a basic if they have it, along if its not Dnt. This brings us to the other question. Do we need to fight hatebear deck like DnT/Humans? Do we wanna take out consistency or just wanna have a fast combo plan even faster if we add Lili, last hope. I made the experience 8 discard + 4 daze+ 2 Lili last hope is in the normal case enough. They will not always have a Thalia or other t2 hatebear. It needs a lot to go wrong with the discard or the combo. i see the only real reason is dark depths.If its popular in your meta, i probably gonna play 2 path to exile. I go with the Philosophy fast Combo is the way to go.

    I’m also not sure on this, you make a good case for Path (just keep in mind it could be quite awkward with Daze). Let us know how they feel, if the downside of getting a basic is too bad or not. I think we do need to respect hatebears enough and would like some removal in the deck, I really need to play some more with Esper again though. When I was playing last I didn’t have Liliana the Last Hope in the deck either but as we’ll get onto your next point, I will next!


    Lili, the last Hope:
    absolutly insane and it's the 3 win condition.Best SB Card for sure.T1 it mostly wins games by itself. We even can protect her with Discard and Daze.

    Agree, she’s nuts. I’ve been super happy with 2 in Grixis, I can see the same for Esper. My original thinking for not including her was that Mentor was so powerful already it wasn’t needed, but that was probably wrong.


    New Cardchoices:

    Dark Confidant
    I like that a lot! i gonna test him aswell. It seems like a sweet card that supports basically everything we need as a gameplay. Supports Ritual into discard, CA and he makes dmg to the oppenent.

    Great! I’m excited to try him too.

    Tombstalker:

    what i like about him?
    Strong Body and in a way hard to kill him.
    Probably better in the Grixis version because this version does not have power like mentor.

    What i dont like?
    It does not support the Combo Plan. Of course it depends what you cut for him.
    maybe clunky in some hands, board states?

    Agree that it’s more for Grixis, but I’ve been very happy with him there. He’s rarely felt clunky except in a bad opening hand and closes games fast/hard to interact with.

    Counterbalance:
    This was one of the first SB cards i played. I cutten it because i think there are better cards. We are not certainly a CA Deck like Miracle. Also we do not really support this Plan. The Cantrips get used for finding Combo Pieces mainly.
    It provides us to do suboptimal plays.Do we wanna take the consistency away if we play CB Main? Also CB is not good against all Decks. I feel like there are stronger cards that have a better impact for this Deck.

    Why i see Esper Phoenix over the Grixis Version?

    For me it's clearly the Power of Mentor which allows us to finish games quickly when he's not getting handled. To be Honest it's probably the Harder version to play. I see the Manabase and the add of bolt for some annoying stuff like Delver or Thalia if you not got the answer in the Grixis Version but also i see the lack of finishing Games with pyromancer when it comes to win without the combo. I wrote some things now and i saw cards like Tombstalker for a adding clock. Seems good in a way but is not better if you just play Grixis Control then? it's just a brainstorming but for me it seems the Deck tries more to control instead to Combo. It loses with the Lack of lotus petal on tempo plays like t1 or t2 Combo or Mentor/Lili what can be a huge difference to win a game. In the End the add of white gives better SB-Cards like Disenchant, Kambal or STP/Path.

    I don’t think it’s comparable to Grixis Control, but I understand where you’re coming from. Esper has certainly felt harder to play for me too, but my sample size with that version is still a lot smaller than with Grixis too. About playing control/combo and everything in between, as I wrote to Baum just below, that’s a positive in my opinion as long as the deck can play these different gameplans well. The white sb options are certainly great, Kambal especially I like.

    So i hope i wrote down everything i had in my mind. It's probably not perfectly written but i hope some people can take notes out of that. It's really based on my analysis.

    Very much appreciated 😊 Thanks for it all, also like I already said, I’m thankful to have more people playing the deck and their feedback.



    Pascal
    Quote Originally Posted by ButterTime View Post
    I played grixis phoenix last night at my local game store and went 3-1. My list:

    [decklist]

    I wanted to use Liliana, the Last Hope, echoing truth, and Alpine Moon, but my cards didn't come in the mail on time because of the cold weather.

    Round 1: Dredge, won in 3, both sideboard games. He won the die roll and basically had the best turn 1 ever, killed me on turn 2. Games two in 3 I was much faster in conjunction with my SB cards.

    Round 2: Eva Green 1-2, I won one, game two I got wastelanded, sinkholed, and he played a Liliana, the last hope off a dark ritual. Games three my opponent killed my tombstalker with a assassin's trophy. That is definently a hard matchup. I would have won if it wasn't for the trophy.

    Round 3: BUG control 2-0: turn 1 and turn 2 buried alive, was able to protect the turn two with discard. My opponent forced my buried alive, but I cast flusterstorm for the 3rd spell.

    Round 4: Dead Guy Ale /w Terminus, 2-1. Won game 1 and 3, game 2 I lost to discard and force of will and wasteland. I didn't see the wasteland in game one and just assumed he wasn't playing them.

    Overall, I really like Liliana of the Veil in the main deck, tombstalker on the other hand is an amazing card, but it doesn't support the combo plan or protect the combo either. I only ran it as a 1 of and he was always answered. Liliana synergizes very well with our game plan. She can be played off a dark ritual, she can source to discard phoenix, she can answer true-name nemesis, good against S&S and reanimator. I think this decks worst matchup is turbo depths or any depths deck in general. What do you guys think of mission briefing, careful study or even manamorphose in the grixis version? I know the UR version plays all of those cards.
    Nice job ButterTime.

    On Tombstalker, I more or less agree with what Baum and Pdingo are saying, there is a middle ground between being combo and fair and with the right balance it's really one of this decks main strengths. It's incredibly hard to sideboard against, and Tombstalker is especially hard to kill in the format outside some specific cards (mostly STP, Strix and edicts, which YP trumps these pretty nicely). Sure having the Stalker killed by the Assassin's Trophy feels bad in your game, but that card doesn't see very much play, you also say you'd have won if they didn't have it. Sounds like Stalker was pretty good to me, it's a card that requires a specific answer a lot of the time, they won't always have it. For my event last Sunday it won a lot of games.

    I very much agree that Depths is our hardest matchup, that's exactly why I've been trying Alpine Moons. They're narrow but the matchup has been feeling that bad.

    Mission Briefing is interesting. I know some people have suggested it before and a friend tried it, but it's quite mana intensive both for CMC and UUX. Being 2 spells in one card is nice though, I would say try one but a lot of the slots are quickly earning their place in my mind and I'm not sure where it'd be better than what they're doing.

    Manamorphose I tried and forgot to include in the primer, though there's some mention of it in my next update. It was very bad for me, I wouldn't recommend it. I also tried Faithless Looting and the card disadvantage was too bad, Careful Study is even worse. Honestly I'm not sure what to make of the UR version, to me it doesn't look very good, but one player (xfile) is putting up some results on MTGO so I don't want to judge it too hastily. Morphose seems better there at least since they don't have Dark Ritual to accelerate, Morphose allows for T2 Phoenix/es.

    @Baum, couldn't agree more! Spot on.

    @Pdingo, I also agree. I'm still interested in Baums testing with CB, but what you say makes sense to me. It's playing towards a longer game that we're equipped to play fine, but not well. I don't think this deck is looking to go into the late game where possible, more that it has the tools for it should we get there.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  13. #113

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Baum View Post
    What I find really interesting, is that there seem to be two schools of thought about how to play the deck. Some comments about cards like Counterbalance or Tombstalker mention that they don't support our game plan and that we should try to be as streamlined as possible. TBH I think that philosophy is somewhat flawed. I believe the strength of decks like Phoenix is that they have a combo element, but can easily incorporate midrange or control aspects to make life awkward for the opponent. It's similar to decks like Food Chain. If we just focus on comboing as fast as possible, we are doing a worse job than Storm, Reanimator or Sneak & Show. I think we should really try to find the perfect middle ground between playing fair and unfair.

    I commented that TS doesn't support the game plan, but it's still an great card and I think it fits into the deck very well. Sometimes, I need to choose whether I will combo as fast as possible, but other times, I will wait depending on what my opponent is doing and take apart their hand with some discard and ride a yp for a few turns. I've learned from playing the deck that there is a perfect middle ground. I will be playing the grixis version on Sunday at the Legacy Classic in Baltimore. I am excited to play the deck in a large tournament and I will take extensive notes and report them here.

  14. #114
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Hello there,
    I'm very interested in this deck, but also quite new to the archetype (I'm a D&T player for the most part). So I read all of your feedback and ideas, and after the few reps I got (I'm Grixis right now), I felt like the worst G1 MUs were amongst pretty popular decks, like BR Rea, Lands and Eldrazi.

    I like the Lilis very much and I wonder whether Ensnaring Bridge would be a viable MD plan ? I'm very hesitant but at the same time, it's pretty disheartening to concede G1 with no other hope than goldfishing on T2 and steal the game.

    The "filler" package could be :

    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Young Pyromancer
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Liliana, The Last Hope
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Lightning Bolt

    instead of (for example) :

    4 Young Pyromancer
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Tombstalker
    3 Lightning Bolt

    The presence of Bridge and Truth let us play fewer Bolts, be less vulnerable to Chalice, give Dark Ritual more broken T1/2 plays, and Lilis combo with Bridge and can ultimate easily. All the cantrips can help get rid of Bridges if we face the wrong MU, and we can easily control our hand so bridge doesn't prevent Phoenixes from attacking.
    For now it's just an idea on the paper, but I dare to propose it since those cards have been mentionned and validated by some of you. It might be good to dig the idea in the 4C variant as well. :)

  15. #115
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Rise and Fall of the Phoenix

    Hei Guys

    I went to the 1k legacy Tournament today in switzerland. To be honest i made the badest result ever in my life 0:4 with the Esper Phoenix List. It had to do with the Bad luck of pairings and with the Deck itself and found the certain Problem of it and why i think it can not comped with other Legacy Decks. Specially T1 Decks. Lets go to the Tournament:

    Match 1 UR Control/Blue Moon

    G1 i win g2 with the Combo after i discarded him a Spell Pierce.
    G2 Here i Mull to 6 and get pretty unlucky. Boardstate i'm on 11 Life he's on 18. I get ride of hist rest hand got 3 phoenixes (He handles me already 2 Lili's). Swing him to 9. He had 1 Topdeck(Badest top deck Bolt or Snapi into Bolt, because with that scenario he brings me to 2)and he kills me next turn even without bolt with the clock he has with true name and snapi. My Hand in this time was 2 Therapy in the GY. So i have to draw a instant or sorcery to play around a possible removal. What happened? Well i drew the TS and he has the Bolt. I cannot get out of this scenario.
    G3 Mull to 6 otp again and he just wins with the classic control hand. I went for the T2 Lili but he had a pierce top deck after i discarded him a BS. Also after that he drew into clique into moon wich i was expecting somehow but that it comes after a clique when i saw his hand was quit annoying. still had the island and swamp + duals on the field. but have to wait 1 turn more and he drew a fluster and a pierce wich got my DR. GG

    Match 2 Dark Dephts (Probably almost unwinnable)
    G1 He starts and has T2 Combo and i have to keep a slow hand with mull to 6.
    G2 Was actually the most incredible win with the Deck so far and my opponent was surprised that i win a game like that. at turn 4 his on 16 life and basically he has nuts again library+discard+combo. I was like BS Topdeck could safe me time.with 2 daze in backup and 1 therapy in the GY+ mentor and 1 token on the field. I really drew Buried alive and go for 2 mana in pool with the lands i have + therapy flashback and counter my own therapy with daze to get the land back, play it into buried alive to get 3 pheonix+ a bunch of tokens..still i have to drew a spell from the top. I drew the ritual and attack him for 17 even if he can block.
    G3 Short game he has again T2 combo and me mull to 6. i die.

    Match 3 Lands (I believe this is the most hardest match up for that deck)
    G1 He has a fast Combo at t3 and i mull to 6 with a slow hand.
    G2. He has a slow hand but all the combo pieces in the hand wich he plays slowly and even after the combo, if he would played more tight he could just go for chasm or tabernacle and win anyway...No chance even if you play GY hate. There are just to many outs for that deck.

    Match 4 Grixis Delver

    I basically conceded here, could have won but i was tired and quit unhappy about the deck.

    I did not noticed any missplay also the Plays where quit linear today unless Match 1 against Control.


    Feedback:

    I really like to play the Deck. It's not that, that it's a bad Deck. i just think it cannot comped with the most T1 Decks even blue Decks for us are slightly favored. The actual weakness of the Deck is that, you have to play sooo much hate against certain Decks (Stompy, Dephts, Lands, Reanimate, Storm for example) and that makes the whole plan more inconsistent even if you play Cards like mentor or pyro as a other win con.Even then it's just really hard to win even with Hate. And here is the Point, maybe you gonna win some random matches against such Decks but if the opponent plays good it gets just really hard. And i think if a legacy Deck gonna play too much hate to beat those Decks and try to make the Match up better in a way but you still lose it's just not the right Deck for Legacy. Let's take ANT for example. It's basically similar. You disrupt your opponent and win with the Combo DIRECTLY most of the time. With this Deck it's not possible and he can find a out for the Clock wich makes the Deck bader. Now you can say yes ANT loses also to a chalice on 1 sometimes and yes it does but ANT stays with the same Gameplan and just board in removal and you don't really make the Game bader. What happens with the Phoenix Deck is you have to take out Cards and do basically the same effort to get the combo or a clock to not win the Game directly and that's the Main Problem against all those Combo Deck. The Second thing is the blue Decks are favored Match ups but it's always a fight. And also here it happens that you lose games of some draws because you get some random cards from the Top like DR, Mentor into Land wich is just bad most the Time, specially after midgame. So what i wanna say in the End.The Deck tries to fight specially the Combo Decks post Games but it's still hard to win sometimes.What i wanna say in the End, the Deck is good for a Weekly or also for a Bigger Tournament, but you have to accept that you always gonna Face one or two of the Match ups wich can interrupt your standing in the End, if you play a bigger Tournament. Maybe i'm just a little sad that it went this wrong, but i had many Decks in then Hand since i play 7 years of legacy but with this Deck i really felt a lesser power level wich sadly has to be in Legacy.

    anyway Guys i really wanted to be honest and share my thoughts with you Guys. Whitefaces created a new Deck that is really fun to play. Also when the powerlevel not is the same as some other Decks.
    Have fun with exploring the Phoenix and legacy:)

    Greets Pascal
    Last edited by Pdingo; 02-02-2019 at 01:32 PM.

  16. #116
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    G2 Here i Mull to 6 and get pretty unlucky. Boardstate i'm on 11 Life he's on 18. I get ride of hist rest hand got 3 phoenixes (He handles me already 2 Lili's). Swing him to 9. He had 1 Topdeck(Badest top deck Bolt or Snapi into Bolt, because with that scenario he brings me to 2. My Hand in this time was 2 Therapy in the GY. So i have to draw a instant or sorcery to play around a possible removal. What happened? Well i drew the TS and he has the Bolt. I cannot get out of this scenario.

    Feedback:

    I really like to play the Deck. It's not that, that it's a bad Deck. i just think it cannot comped with the most T1 Decks even blue Decks for us are slightly favored. The actual weakness of the Deck is that, you have to play sooo much hate against certain Decks (Stompy, Dephts, Lands, Reanimate, Storm for example) and that makes the whole plan more inconsistent even if you play Cards like mentor or pyro as a other win con.Even then it's just really hard to win even with Hate. And here is the Point, maybe you gonna win some random matches against such Decks but if the opponent plays good it gets just really hard. And i think if a legacy Deck gonna play too much hate to beat those Decks and try to make the Match up better in a way but you still lose it's just not the right Deck for Legacy. Let's take ANT for example. It's basically similar. You disrupt your opponent and win with the Combo DIRECTLY most of the time. With this Deck it's not possible and he can find a out for the Clock wich makes the Deck bader. Now you can say yes ANT loses also to a chalice on 1 sometimes and yes it does but ANT stays with the same Gameplan and just board in removal and you don't really make the Game bader. What happens with the Phoenix Deck is you have to take out Cards and do basically the same effort to get the combo or a clock to not win the Game directly and that's the Main Problem against all those Combo Deck. The Second thing is the blue Decks are favored Match ups but it's always a fight. And also here it happens that you lose games of some draws because you get some random cards from the Top like DR, Mentor into Land wich is just bad most the Time, specially after midgame. So what i wanna say in the End.The Deck tries to fight specially the Combo Decks post Games but it's still hard to win sometimes.What i wanna say in the End, the Deck is good for a Weekly or also for a Bigger Tournament, but you have to accept that you always gonna Face one or two of the Match ups wich can interrupt your standing in the End, if you play a bigger Tournament. Maybe i'm just a little sad that it went this wrong, but i had many Decks in then Hand since i play 7 years of legacy but with this Deck i really felt a lesser power level wich sadly has to be in Legacy.

    anyway Guys i really wanted to be honest and share my thoughts with you Guys. Whitefaces created a new Deck that is really fun to play. Also when the powerlevel not is the same as some other Decks.
    Have fun with exploring the Phoenix and legacy:)

    Greets Pascal
    In the game highlighted, I don't quite follow. Why did you cast the Thoughtseize? If you attack they have to use the Bolt on a Phoenix and you still kill them next turn. I understand that you're playing around a removal spell, but in this scenario the removal spell you're trying force kills you by casting the TS.

    I don't think a bad event requires such a dramatic shift, especially just a 1k with 4 rounds, but if you're over the deck that's fine. It has some bad matchups, those are Depths and Lands, there's really nothing more to say but we do have some tools to fight them they're just a bit narrow. Most decks have bad matchups, it's a symptom of the format, but I understand what you're saying don't get me wrong. Maybe it's just because Esper is a bit worse than Grixis too, I've been having better results with Grixis anyway. It's hard to put my finger on exactly why, but it feels more consistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  17. #117
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    In the game highlighted, I don't quite follow. Why did you cast the Thoughtseize? If you attack they have to use the Bolt on a Phoenix and you still kill them next turn. I understand that you're playing around a removal spell, but in this scenario the removal spell you're trying force kills you by casting the TS.


    oh i forgot to mention that i was at 5 life(In my last turn) and he kills me next turn with the clock he has:P quit relevant. so if i attack and he has the bolt he just kill a bird and i die next turn because he just goes to 3.the thing was if i drew a instant or sorcery i have to double therapy from the gy doesn't matter what because i can play around that the bird dies in the combat. i drew the TS and have to therapy and he bolts me randomly of course and i cannot play TS

    I don't think a bad event requires such a dramatic shift, especially just a 1k with 4 rounds, but if you're over the deck that's fine. It has some bad matchups, those are Depths and Lands, there's really nothing more to say but we do have some tools to fight them they're just a bit narrow. Most decks have bad matchups, it's a symptom of the format, but I understand what you're saying don't get me wrong. Maybe it's just because Esper is a bit worse than Grixis too, I've been having better results with Grixis anyway. It's hard to put my finger on exactly why, but it feels more consistent.

    yes could be that grixis is just better but also there you lose exactly against the same match ups and what i mean is this Deck has a lot of bad match ups if we count chalice decks aswell. Like they're mostly really bad. I just feel there is some powerlevel missing. i will think about it and maybe come to a other conclusion later at one point. thanks for the feedback!

  18. #118

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    I'm going to play the grixis version of the deck at a legacy classic this weekend. Here is my proposed decklist, along with a couple of questions and suggestions. Maybe you guys can help me decide the best configuration.

    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    2 Tombstalker

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Daze

    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    3 Alpine Moon (these could be sower of temptation, which I think is better since Alpine Moon is an extremely narrow card)
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope

    So, I'm pretty convinced 18 lands is to many for the deck. I've been testing with 16 and I think it's solid. I played RUG Delver for years and that deck only played 14 lands plus 4 wasteland so I think we're good with 16. I'm also not sure whether to play Liliana of the Veil/Last Hope or two Tombstalkers. Daze is also a reactive spell, but I think it has a place in this deck. I'm not sure if I should play 2 or 3. I expect to run into a lot of fair blue decks/eldrazi/and dark depths decks. Thoughts?

  19. #119

    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by Pdingo View Post
    yes could be that grixis is just better but also there you lose exactly against the same match ups and what i mean is this Deck has a lot of bad match ups if we count chalice decks aswell. Like they're mostly really bad. I just feel there is some powerlevel missing. i will think about it and maybe come to a other conclusion later at one point. thanks for the feedback!
    Chalice is tough if it comes down on turn 1, but buried alive cost 3 and young pyromancer costs 2 so you can still play those cards. I've won againt chalice many times just buy casting buried alive and a young pyromancer. I'll save 3 spells and then cast them even if they don't resolve. They will still count towards your spell count and you can get your phoenixs back.

  20. #120
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    Re: Buried Phoenix

    Quote Originally Posted by ButterTime View Post
    I'm going to play the grixis version of the deck at a legacy classic this weekend. Here is my proposed decklist, along with a couple of questions and suggestions. Maybe you guys can help me decide the best configuration.

    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Arclight Phoenix
    2 Tombstalker

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Daze

    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    3 Alpine Moon (these could be sower of temptation, which I think is better since Alpine Moon is an extremely narrow card)
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope

    So, I'm pretty convinced 18 lands is to many for the deck. I've been testing with 16 and I think it's solid. I played RUG Delver for years and that deck only played 14 lands plus 4 wasteland so I think we're good with 16. I'm also not sure whether to play Liliana of the Veil/Last Hope or two Tombstalkers. Daze is also a reactive spell, but I think it has a place in this deck. I'm not sure if I should play 2 or 3. I expect to run into a lot of fair blue decks/eldrazi/and dark depths decks. Thoughts?
    Good luck with it! Tommy Ashton has been playing the deck in the main today and went 9-0, I'd use his! Or something close, I think the main at least is excellent. And I agree with your assessment about lands, though that is with some petals in there too. They've been much better than anticipated.

    4 Arclight Phoenix
    1 Badlands
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Island
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Buried Alive
    2 Daze
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    3 Lotus Petal
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    3 Young Pyromancer
    2 Lightning Bolt
    2 Tombstalker
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    2 Abrade
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Echoing Truth
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Goblin Cratermaker
    1 Snuff Out
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Marsh Casualties
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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