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Thread: Paradox Engine Combo

  1. #21
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    so i think i've found a way to manage to fit some threats into the card manipulation:

    next version of that deck:

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 31 Artifact
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Voltaic Key
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Temple Bell
    2 Aetherflux Reservoir
    4 Paradox Engine
    4 Thran Dynamo
    1 Urzaís Blueprints

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Future Sight

    // 4 Instant
    4 Force of Will

    // 16 Land
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Saprazzan Skerry
    4 Seat of the Synod

    // 5 Planeswalker
    2 Tezzeret the Seeker
    2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    it's still a fragile deck, but it could actually support chalices out of the sb.
    -rob

  2. #22
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Uh I like future sight! Maybe not as a 4-of, but it is a nice addition. Pretty much experimental frenzy with no downside and a way more prohibitive cost... And speaking of prohibitive costs, a single mind over matter or two could be fun. If you have more cards in your library than the opponent, or play at least one emrakul, Mind over Matter+Temple bell is a kill. Otherwise Mind over Matter can sometimes help you get more mana by discarding excess lands to untap monoliths and so on.

    In my almost-goldfishing testing 2 tezz, 1 emrakul, 1 reservoir has been enough threats. I appreciate that you need more blue cards to support fow, but I also think fow is a stretch in this deck. Why not just run the defense grids?

    I'm testing this pile these days:
    Lands (16)
    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    4x Seat of the Synod
    4x Island

    Kill (4)
    1x Aetherflux Reservoir
    1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2x Tezzeret the Seeker

    Mana (14)
    2x Basalt Monolith
    4x Grim Monolith
    4x Lotus Petal
    4x Mox Opal

    Draw/tutor (13)
    2x Fabricate
    4x Temple Bell
    4x Paradoxical Outcome
    3x Thoughtcast

    Protection (4)
    3x Defense Grid
    1x Ratchet Bomb

    Tricks (9)
    1x Magistrate's Scepter
    4x Paradox Engine
    4x Voltaic Key

    It is a lot of fun, and very often it goes off turn two or three. But it doesn't really have to. I don't think I've ever played a deck where life is a ressource as much as in this.
    I will try and swap one paradoxical outcome with one Mind over Matter, but I'm afraid the cost is too prohibitive for the deck, and that the Mind Over Matter will often just be a kill-condition.

  3. #23

    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    I can vouch for Future Sight. I ran it as a singleton before Frenzy was printed. It has the added benefit of pairing well with Temple Bell and Urza's Blueprints. Three is probably better than four.

  4. #24
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Looks a lot stronger now with Future Sight instead of Frenzy, walkers, Sol Lands for ramp, and either FoW or Defense Grid for protection! Boarding into Chalice seems strong too.

    Any test results?

  5. #25

    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    I really like the way the blue lists operate:-)

    The Antiquities War seems to be better than Tezzeret the Seeker in terms of resiliency and about equal in finding combo parts, as the former doesn't need to protect itself for a turn to find a Paradox Engine and you most likely get to see 10 cards. Also it has the edge in being an alternate wincon that is a must-answer within a couple of turns due to the high artifact count. We do lose the +1 -> untap 2 artifacts though...

  6. #26
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Good idea. Prob better than seeker. Still like bolas as a threat though.
    -rob

  7. #27
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    antiquities war was a great find:

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 33 Artifact
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Voltaic Key
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Temple Bell
    4 Paradox Engine
    4 Thran Dynamo
    1 Urza's Blueprints
    4 Tangle Wire

    // 2 Creature
    2 Walking Ballista

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 The Antiquities War

    // 16 Land
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Saprazzan Skerry
    4 Seat of the Synod

    // 1 Planeswalker
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker

    // 4 Sorcery
    4 Thoughtcast

    the reason why i like the ballista as a win con is that it's also an okay turn 1 play with a sol land. additionally, if you have a paradox out, you can cast it for 0 mana to untap your nonlands. it then functions as a combo kill as well.

    the tangle wires are in there to help the kind of random draws where you have ancient tomb + grim monolith but not a ton else. sometimes having a turn 1 tangle wire can buy you enough time fo set your hand up better.
    -rob

  8. #28
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Do you really think Antiquities War is a better card in this deck, than Paradoxical outcome?! I think PO is great (I play three).
    I get that war can sometimes be castable and great in situations were PO would suck a lot, but it is also very slow and the last effect is pretty much useless (or at least we have better options at killing people than this...)

    It seems with tangle wire, War and ballista, were are approaching a different deck.

  9. #29
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    is it better than paradoxical outcome in this deck? i think so.

    it provides another win condition, and it digs for 10 cards, which i think starts the combo better than PO. there are times when PO isn't super strong.

    sol land -> grim + mox + petal -> PO is a draw 3, but that's not going to really do significant things vs good decks.

    PO is obviously great if you are already mid-combo, especially as bouncing a mox or a key more or less untaps your permanents additional times. i think the hard part for this deck is finding the paradox engine.

    AW can do some really nice things too.

    let's say you have turn 1 tomb + grim + key + tangle wire.
    turn 2 you use tomb + key untap grim and tap it. resolve tangle wire. then untap grim. play seat + AW. (or any other land + petal/mox + AW).

    you are likely to have a pretty strong turn 3 and 4 as they still being crushed by tangle wire. if the attack goes well, you don't even need to combo. i really like this approach for that reason.
    -rob

  10. #30

    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Hi everyone,
    I'd been messing around with this approach a couple weeks back and got kinda psyched to come across this thread.
    After goldfishing the lists here I've arrived at this list, it's comboing T1-3 fairly consistently with aggressive mulliganing.
    I've opted for Chalice over Voltaic Key, which may be wrong, but Key isn't super needed in this one and I think the deck needs one set of defensive cards.
    The Vedalken Archmages could also be any other card engine, I don't think Temple Bell is the one tbh. In a Voltaic Key build, Temporal Aperture may be good enough. Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain is better than Archmage sometimes; Paradoxical Outcome, Thoughtcast, Thirst for Knowledge or Fabricate seem fine. Tower of Fortunes is definitely fun. But I'm actually hoping one of you has a better, ideally artifact/noncreature suggestion for that slot.
    It might need those Saprazzan Skerry s or sth to struggle less with UU
    What I do like about this one is that with Chalice, Ballista, and Staff of Domination, the deck somewhat naturally has an answer to spellbased, wide and big opposing strategies respectively.
    Looking forward to everyone's input

    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Inventor's Fair
    4 Seat of The Synod
    2 Island
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Basalt Monolith
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Power Artifact
    4 Paradox Engine
    4 Staff of Domination
    4 Walking Ballista
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 The Antiquities War
    4 Vedalken Archmage

    edit: upon further testing, as is this might not be 'it' either, but i do believe adding the power artifact combo is a good way to go
    Last edited by phxsns; 02-16-2019 at 08:15 AM.

  11. #31
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Recently there are some decks having success with Paradox Engine:

    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31729&iddeck=273512
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31731&iddeck=273595
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31699&iddeck=273215

    I guess what makes Engine good is the printing of Mystic Forge.

    Looks really interesting to me, search Engine with Inventor's Fair, get Forge into play and go off. The kill seems to be Karn into Walking Ballista.

  12. #32
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Great necro! This deck benefitted "a little bit" from the addition of Karn, the great creator and Mystic forge. The archetype in it's latest stages should be attributed to Michael Coyle, I'm pretty sure. Watch his streams on Twitch, user susurrus_mtg.

  13. #33
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Great necro! This deck benefitted "a little bit" from the addition of Karn, the great creator and Mystic forge. The archetype in it's latest stages should be attributed to Michael Coyle, I'm pretty sure. Watch his streams on Twitch, user susurrus_mtg.
    Surprisingly I see little discussion about Mystic Forge or Paradox Engine here.
    Although it's a card which deserves more attention, although I don't know how good it (or the deck) is.

    This is the best thread I found.

    Concerning the author, I am not sure. I also found this: https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...nnel-mengucci/

  14. #34
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    Surprisingly I see little discussion about Mystic Forge or Paradox Engine here.
    Although it's a card which deserves more attention, although I don't know how good it (or the deck) is.

    This is the best thread I found.

    Concerning the author, I am not sure. I also found this: https://www.channelfireball.com/vide...nnel-mengucci/
    Little discussion because it's better to watch Coyle's stream to listen to how he developes the list than discussing it elsewhere. In the twitch chat I think you'll find link to Discord where it's discussed too. But you can discuss here too, I'll read it at least. Maybe chime in..

  15. #35
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Has anyone else been experimenting with a light blue splash for Emry?

    Emry + Engine + a 0 cast artifact you can sac is infinite untaps so usually infi mana or forge activations.
    If you run a bauble, you get a bunch of card draw the next turn. If you run something like Chromatic Star you get to draw your deck right away assuming you have something that ads a mana in the cycle. The problem with that is it runs against Chalice.
    It's possible you could run Chalice in the board and just be more threat heavy in game ones, but that might be too risky.

    Maybe by being blue, there should just be some more mana support to just have Urza in here or PO, but I'm going to try the mostly colourless route first.


    Lands
    4 x City of Traitors
    2 x Crystal Vein
    2 x Inventorsí Fair
    4 x Ancient Tomb
    4 x Seat of the Synod

    Creatures
    4 x Emry, Lurker of the Loch

    Spells
    4 x Karn, the Great Creator
    4 x Mystic Forge
    2 x Paradox Engine
    4 x Grim Monolith
    2 x Manifold Key
    2 x Voltaic Key
    4 x Serum Powder
    4 x Chromatic Star
    4 x Mox Opal
    4 x Lotus Petal
    4 x Lionís Eye Diamond
    1 x Basalt Monolith
    1 x Walking Ballista

    Sideboard
    1 x Tormodís Crypt
    1 x Ensnaring Bridge
    1 x Liquimetal Coating
    1 x Manifold Key
    1 x Mycosynth Lattice
    1 x Ratchet Bomb
    2 x Defense Grid
    1 x Walking Ballista
    1 x Paradox Engine
    1 x Hope of Ghaipur

  16. #36

    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    This seems like a spot where Transmute Artifact could do some work.

  17. #37
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by sco0ter View Post
    Recently there are some decks having success with Paradox Engine:

    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31729&iddeck=273512
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31731&iddeck=273595
    https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31699&iddeck=273215

    I guess what makes Engine good is the printing of Mystic Forge.

    Looks really interesting to me, search Engine with Inventor's Fair, get Forge into play and go off. The kill seems to be Karn into Walking Ballista.
    Interesting. There are a few key things I see here:

    1) They play Chalice. Like I said on the first page, Chalice just wins games. For any deck that benefits from Sol Lands and doesn't have key pieces at 1 cmc, running Chalice is better than not running Chalice. It hurts them more than 1 cmc cards help us. It's not just combo protection. It slows down games long enough to assemble expensive artifacts.

    2) 4x Mystic Forge. Colorless Future Sight/Experimental Frenzy that can exile unwanted lands pushes this over the top. It looks really easy to go off. Without Forge you can fizzle too easily.

    3) 4x Karn. Karn slides into the manabase too easily. Finds answers or just wins the game with Lattice. Strong plan B.

    4) Lists 2 & 3 have questionable SBs. 4 Leyline of the Void + 4 Karn but 0 Helm of Obedience? Is the SB so tight on spots that there's no room for a tutorable 1-of that instantly wins the game? (plan B through storm hate, Surgical on Forge, etc.)

    Keys are good but not good enough to overrule #1. This deck having a Voltaic Key isn't as strong as the opponent getting Brainstorm + Ponder + Spell Pierce + Delver (or Entomb + Reanimate, or Thoughtseize + Crop Rotation).

    Emry looks bad due to summoning sickness and dying to creature removal.

  18. #38
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    @FTW: I'd consider this an established deck now.

    It plays Crypts over Leylines currently but that can change. I think the matchups you need graveyard hate vs are favorable so devoting extra space is reducing your overall win percentages, that slot is better spent elsewhere. Actually the deck has 3 sb slots for graveyard hate right now, I believe.

    Chalice and Keys are great together in this deck, no doubt about it. Tune in on Twitch and watch the guy streaming, good entertainment!

  19. #39
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    It plays Crypts over Leylines currently but that can change. Actually the deck has 3 sb slots for graveyard hate right now, I believe.
    Yeah 3 slots with Crypt & friends should be enough.

    I was talking about 2 of the linked lists that have 4 Leyline SB, instead of Crypts. After that Helm is just 1 more spot. The thing is you don't only have to bring it in to win GY matches. It's a viable plan B/plan C against any control deck trying to disrupt the Paradox plan. They bring in Storm hate and answers to plan A, you win a different way. As long as Leyline does something in the match (e.g. generic deck with Snapcaster, Wrenn, or Angler) it's a viable trick to outflank the opponent.

    Also I didn't say Keys are bad, just that they and the other 1cc cards aren't a reason to cut Chalice (Re: Reanimator's list). Chalice is too good.

  20. #40
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    Re: Paradox Engine Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I was talking about 2 of the linked lists that have 4 Leyline SB, instead of Crypts. After that Helm is just 1 more spot. The thing is you don't only have to bring it in to win GY matches. It's a viable plan B/plan C against any control deck trying to disrupt the Paradox plan. They bring in Storm hate and answers to plan A, you win a different way. As long as Leyline does something in the match (e.g. generic deck with Snapcaster, Wrenn, or Angler) it's a viable trick to outflank the opponent.
    I failed to put my thoughts into words here, sorry! ;) I was referring to the Helm as the one extra slot that you don't need to devote to improve your win percentages against the graveyard dependent decks, or at least it seems so until now. Not that I'm an expert. Up until now (with the meta responding, who knows) it seems as if the deck has not needed to devote 4 slots to better beat those decks, it has not needed to devote 5 slots, but rather 3 slots seems to work fine, with those being Crypts. Having 2 extra slots increases win percentages vs tougher matchups, being decks with 6+ FoWs perhaps.

    Boarding in Leylines vs a control deck is probably diluting an already strong deck too much, I believe.

    Also I didn't say Keys are bad, just that they and the other 1cc cards aren't a reason to cut Chalice (Re: Reanimator's list). Chalice is too good.
    Ah, my misunderstanding then.

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