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Thread: Future of MTG

  1. #21
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Every thread should shit on brainstorm imo.
    #FreeNedleeds
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  2. #22

    Re: Future of MTG

    Don't ban Brainstorm.

    But please unban every single thing on the ban list thats not blue or an artifact.

    Ehh, nevermind. Just ban brainstorm already from all formats. Thanks to the existance of fetchlands, Brainstorm is for all intents and purposes an Ancestral Recall.

  3. #23

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Don't ban Brainstorm.

    But please unban every single thing on the ban list thats not blue or an artifact.

    Ehh, nevermind. Just ban brainstorm already from all formats. Thanks to the existance of fetchlands, Brainstorm is for all intents and purposes an Ancestral Recall.
    Alternatively, you could ban fetchlands!

  4. #24
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    Alternatively, you could ban fetchlands!
    Alternatively, you could play Modern!
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  5. #25

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Alternatively, you could play Modern!
    I could, but that wouldn't really address the issue of fetchlands +brainstorm turning brainstorm into recall...[nore would it address a dislike of fetchlands].

  6. #26
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    I could, but that wouldn't really address the issue of fetchlands +brainstorm turning brainstorm into recall...[nore would it address a dislike of fetchlands].
    Of course it's not, because it wasn't presented as if it would be, nor is it, a real "solution."

    I said it to lampoon the fact that the proposal of banning Brainstorm and/or fetchlands is just as poor a "solution" as the suggestion of playing Modern (if not more so).

    In both cases, you arrive at something that is distinctly not Legacy and is antithetical to the very idea and purpose of the format.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  7. #27

    Re: Future of MTG

    The future of Magic is just people playing and streaming Arena.

    Secondary market card prices for either paper cards or MTGO objects will be completely irrelevant.
    - 'Pathy' on MTGO
    - Eastern PA player

  8. #28

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Of course it's not, because it wasn't presented as if it would be, nor is it, a real "solution."

    I said it to lampoon the fact that the proposal of banning Brainstorm and/or fetchlands is just as poor a "solution" as the suggestion of playing Modern (if not more so).

    In both cases, you arrive at something that is distinctly not Legacy and is antithetical to the very idea and purpose of the format.
    Legacy without brainstorm is still legacy, as evidenced by all the t2 decks without brainstorm fighting for the right to be also ran.

  9. #29
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    I could, but that wouldn't really address the issue of fetchlands +brainstorm turning brainstorm into recall...[nore would it address a dislike of fetchlands].
    Play Old School :), it really is the best.
    For those interested in the latest Ancient decks (and the format in general) visit: http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/

  10. #30

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Teluin View Post
    Play Old School :), it really is the best.
    Why don't you just show me your binder instead? I'm sure you're very proud of your collection but we don't need to actually shuffle it up for you to show it to me.

  11. #31
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Why don't you just show me your binder instead? I'm sure you're very proud of your collection but we don't need to actually shuffle it up for you to show it to me.
    I legitimately am not sure what you mean by this.
    For those interested in the latest Ancient decks (and the format in general) visit: http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/

  12. #32

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Teluin View Post
    I legitimately am not sure what you mean by this.
    I think what he means is "old school is not about playing a good format, it's about bragging about the rare and expensive cards you have". Not saying I agree with that [I have no idea how fun / not fun the format is], but that's what he's saying.

  13. #33

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    In both cases, you arrive at something that is distinctly not Legacy and is antithetical to the very idea and purpose of the format.
    I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.

  14. #34

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.
    I can't speak for the person to whom you're replying, but I personally do feel like the fetch/dual action contributes to the inherent feel of eternal formats (it has been interesting playing Gifts Storm in Modern, which recently moved to a fetchless manabase, because it feels strange playing only shocks/pains/fastlands/basics). I don't think it's the only part, or even the most compelling, but I do like how it feels in Legacy. I could see why you might not find that convincing, though.

    The real reason fetchlands are essential to legacy is unrelated to gameplay. The Reserved list limits the available real estate for would-be Legacy players, and fetches are essential to the format's survival until it is removed, because fetches are, in many ways, de facto dual proxies sanctioned by Wizards. Unfortunately, the nature of their design results in some knock-on effects like additional cheap/frequent shuffles that empower cantrips, which some people dislike, but ultimately they make legacy possible to play.

  15. #35
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    I *really* don't understand how fetchlands are essential to Legacy as a format. I get (although I disagree with) the concept that brainstorm is essential because it defines the feel of legacy. But fetchlands? Nah. They aren't even remotely essential to the format.
    It isn't that fetchlands (or Brainstorm for that matter) being essential, it's about Legacy being the place where you get to play the "most powerful" cards "allowable" as 4-ofs.

    Legacy is defined by exclusion, by certain cards being decidedly and demonstrably better than others. To remove things from the format solely because they are the best option, in the name of some mystical and unachievable "diversity" you are doing violence to the very foundation of Legacy, that is, the principle of excellence. I don't want to play a format where things are banned just for being "too good."

    Has that happened? Yes. Do I disagree with some things that are banned? Yes.

    However, just banning something because it's the best option is a race to the bottom and a recipe for a shit format. Does Brainstorm hold cards out of competitive Legacy? Yes, as it should. Do fetchlands homogenize mana bases? Yes, as they should. Why in God's name would I want Coastal Tower in my fucking Legacy deck?

    If you want a format where River Boas can win tournaments again, like the "good ol' days of Legacy" go make that format for people who want that. Legacy isn't a static nostalgia trip through Magic's history. It's the iterative distillation of the "best possible."

    Honestly, so many people here have swallowed so much denigration of hierarchy and like post-Modernist philosophy so long, they can't even recognize it when they regurgitate it back up. Well, I'll always be here, singing the dirge of our fallen brother Deathrite Shaman, who payed the ultimate price for our post-Modern sins.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  16. #36

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I can't speak for the person to whom you're replying, but I personally do feel like the fetch/dual action contributes to the inherent feel of eternal formats (it has been interesting playing Gifts Storm in Modern, which recently moved to a fetchless manabase, because it feels strange playing only shocks/pains/fastlands/basics). I don't think it's the only part, or even the most compelling, but I do like how it feels in Legacy. I could see why you might not find that convincing, though.

    The real reason fetchlands are essential to legacy is unrelated to gameplay. The Reserved list limits the available real estate for would-be Legacy players, and fetches are essential to the format's survival until it is removed, because fetches are, in many ways, de facto dual proxies sanctioned by Wizards. Unfortunately, the nature of their design results in some knock-on effects like additional cheap/frequent shuffles that empower cantrips, which some people dislike, but ultimately they make legacy possible to play.
    If there was an answer to the reserved Dual problem, would you feel the same? If "snow duals" had come into being, and we had easy access to 4X of every dual for sub $50, would the fetchlands still feel like something legacy needed?

    I don't think either fetchlands or the cantrip suite are broken, but I certainly feel like the combination of the two is overpowered and would like to see it addressed somehow.

  17. #37
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Honestly, so many people here have swallowed so much denigration of hierarchy and like post-Modernist philosophy so long, they can't even recognize it when they regurgitate it back up. Well, I'll always be here, singing the dirge of our fallen brother Deathrite Shaman, who payed the ultimate price for our post-Modern sins.
    I'll take the bait just this once.
    Grandstanding about "excellence" has no place when the concept of game balance is in play. I too long for a day where I can play Lotus and Necropotence into two copies of Mind's Desire.

  18. #38

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    If there was an answer to the reserved Dual problem, would you feel the same? If "snow duals" had come into being, and we had easy access to 4X of every dual for sub $50, would the fetchlands still feel like something legacy needed?

    I don't think either fetchlands or the cantrip suite are broken, but I certainly feel like the combination of the two is overpowered and would like to see it addressed somehow.
    Yes, personally, I would, but I would totally play in a Legacy that has fetchlands banned, too. I'm generally pretty easy (that's why you'll see me advocate against bans in the B&R thread and for unbans - I think for the most part the format is good).

    I suspect fetchlands would still be widely played if they just reprinted duals because of their functionality with cantrips, but in a world where they reprinted duals and banned fetchlands, I think that format could be interesting too. Seems like Moon Stompy would get better in that context, which I wouldn't be a fan of, but I'm sure I could deal. Probably end up playing more Elves or Miracles or something.

  19. #39
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    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    I'll take the bait just this once.
    Grandstanding about "excellence" has no place when the concept of game balance is in play. I too long for a day where I can play Lotus and Necropotence into two copies of Mind's Desire.
    What is grandstanding about it? You might object (and perhaps rightly so) about the operationalization of the term, but it still fits. Lotus is unfit to be a 4-of, is does Necropotence and Mind's Desire. If you want to make a case that they are fine, you can go ahead and do that. What you imagine though, I'd guess, is that we should have a clear, empirical, objectively quantized method of determining what is alright as a 4-of and what is not. Such a thing would never and likely should never exist, even if it were possible.

    It's unclear to me how to have a conversation with you though if you think that Black Lotus and Brainstorm are equivalent is any meaningful way though.

    That being said, if cards that are the most efficient and most powerful for what they do aren't what define Legacy than what does? I guess if you don't want to call it "excellence" that's fine, how about a hierarchy of power-level, or hierarchy of playablity?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  20. #40

    Re: Future of MTG

    Quote Originally Posted by Teluin View Post
    I legitimately am not sure what you mean by this.
    Every old school deck I've seen is just a collection of some of the most expensive cards available, and the decks themselves are just vehicles to put them together. If you want me to see your alpha Serra Angel, and some moxen you happen to own just show them to me. I don't need to shuffle up a deck no reasonable person can afford to see it.

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