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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #241

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think:
    #1 is supposed to be 3-1. You win OTP because he's locked out unless he forces, in which case your two threats are better. You draw OTD because he has to claim your Inkmoth (it'll be too fast of a race.) Thus you hold your Blink up and block the bogle if he attacks. If you play blink first, he still attacks first, meaning you'll either lose the race or trade => draw.

    If he starts Island+bogle I Blinkmoth, go to 19 Inkmoth+Sphere and win the race with Inkmoth

    #8 He plays orb OTD and slow plays the Dreads. 12/12 > 2/2 infect :)

    Eh of course... Tnx
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    .

  2. #242

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    for suggestions - what about some publicly shared spreadsheet for results? it's quite hard to navigate and crosscheck all the posts
    The GoogleDoc spreadsheets used when I played at NGA should still be up, probably will recommend just using that as a base because it worked quite well.

    It also has a cross-checker to make sure that the matchup points are correct both ways.

  3. #243
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance PTS OTP/OTD
    17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 3-3
    Hum... I'd love to have 3 more points, but why do you think i can win any of these games?
    OTP i drop havenwood battleground, then you drop city and cast sphere. I can't cast eureka.
    OTD, you drop city, cast sphere and still can't cast Eureka.

    Therefore, you win both games.

    Tell me if you agree.
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  4. #244
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    The GoogleDoc spreadsheets used when I played at NGA should still be up, probably will recommend just using that as a base because it worked quite well.

    It also has a cross-checker to make sure that the matchup points are correct both ways.
    Public Google spreadsheet is a VERY good idea.
    I'll try to find time to build one for the next round.

  5. #245
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Hum... I'd love to have 3 more points, but why do you think i can win any of these games?
    OTP i drop havenwood battleground, then you drop city and cast sphere. I can't cast eureka.
    OTD, you drop city, cast sphere and still can't cast Eureka.

    Therefore, you win both games.

    Tell me if you agree.
    He agrees, you're just misreading his format. I did the same thing as I went over it. Basically he's saying "OTP I get 3 points, OTD I get three points" instead of saying " 6-0 like some people did; or in my case "WW, 6pts"

    I prefer the WW, WD, WL, DD, DL, LL style for recording what happened, then stating how many points that's worth (just for ease of checking point-math.) Normalizing the data (which would happen in a shared spreadsheet as suggested) would help to clear confusion on these matters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  6. #246

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Public Google spreadsheet is a VERY good idea.
    I'll try to find time to build one for the next round.
    This is the most recent spreadsheet I could find from NGA, hopefully that helps you out.

  7. #247
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    This is the most recent spreadsheet I could find from NGA, hopefully that helps you out.
    I was also surprised to see the following cards on the banned list. What am I missing?

    summer bloom
    Glacial chasm
    Exploration
    Pyrokenesis
    Panoptic mirror but not isochron scepter
    ugin, the spirit dragon but not emrakul
    Simian spirit guide but not elvish spirit guide or lotus petal
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  8. #248

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    I was also surprised to see the following cards on the banned list. What am I missing?

    summer bloom
    Glacial chasm
    Exploration
    Pyrokenesis
    Panoptic mirror but not isochron scepter
    ugin, the spirit dragon but not emrakul
    Simian spirit guide but not elvish spirit guide or lotus petal
    It was done in seasons, and each season there were options to add/remove cards from the banned list on top of the worst performer getting to ban a card from the winning hand, which is why it looks inconsistent with what would be an optimal banned list.

    Exploration and Summer Bloom were because we tried a variant format that added the ability to play a basic land of your choice from outside the game each turn, and Exploration naturally won the first time and Summer Bloom was discussed as well.

    It died out because there was not enough interest among the users. While there was discussion of starting a card blind blog, it never really went anywhere.

  9. #249

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Public Google spreadsheet is a VERY good idea.
    I'll try to find time to build one for the next round.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    I actually made a quick spreadsheet the other day but I havent gotten around to filling anything out yet. Its public edit so anyone can fill it in.

    edit: just looking at some of the results people posted, I agree with most but I think some might be different but I am not entirely sure (its pretty late when I am writing this and am just doing it before I go to bed), maybe someone else could check:

    23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack

    I think I win both

    OTP
    swamp blackmail, he has to reveal either rack or swamp as third card
    if he reveals swamp he cannot play spells and I can win
    if he reveals rack take rack, next turn he discards one of my threats, i play the other one and win

    OTD
    t1 - Swamp blackmail
    hide swamp, take blackmail or else I can blackmail his rack on my turn and win
    t1 - factory, cast rack
    t2 - take 1 damage from rack (opp:19), cast rack or else he has no way to win and takes 1 dmg each turn
    t2 - take 2 damage (me:18), play swamp activate factory deal 2 damage (opp:17 life)
    t3 - take 3 damage (opp:14) pass
    t3 - take 3 damage (me:15), attack with factory deal 2 (opp:12)
    t4 - take 3 damage (opp:9) pass
    t4 - take 3 damage (me:12), attack with factory deal 2 (opp:7)
    t5 - take 3 damage (opp:4) pass
    t5 - take 3 damage (me:9), attack with factory deal 2 (opp:2)
    t6 - deal 3 damage (opp:-1)
    outrace 5dmg v 3


    4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep

    I think for both games I have no reason to play spells and can force the issue with factory attacks, which cant be interacted with, eventually forcing the griffin to be played, at which point I can then blackmail to get misstep out of hand either through casting or force, then I can play my vise to outrace

    e.g.
    OTP
    t1 - factory go?
    t1 - land citp go
    t2 - land factory attack (18)
    t2 - add storage counter (1) go
    t3 - factory attack (16)
    t3 - storage counter (2)
    t4 - factory attack (14)
    etc


    15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader

    I think I win both

    OTP
    t1 - blackmail take any card and win

    OTD
    t1 - plays crusader
    t1 - factory rack
    t2 - take rack damage (17) attack (2 infect)
    t2 - swamp go
    t3 - take rack damage (14) cant attack because I can trade with factory block pump giving it 3 power to survive first trike, vice gives inevitability

    and heres the other ones that havent been done yet


    3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep

    OTP:
    t1 - factory go
    t1 - factory go
    t2 - swamp attack with factory (opp:18)
    t2 - port
    t3 - port on upkeep for draw

    OTD:
    same factory stalemate again

    draw/draw

    5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate
    same as CptHaddock except confiscate is too slow I think

    win/win

    7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda
    same as other force griffin decks

    8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought

    OTP
    t1 - land blackmail, has to hide either land or orb, take the other and win

    OTD
    t1 - land torpor orb
    t1 - land blackmail take dreadnought
    t2 - play dreadnought
    t2 - cant race

    win/loss

    10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear

    OTP
    t1 - land blackmail, has to hide leopard take adventuring gear
    t1 - land leopard
    t2 - factory rack
    t2 - take 1 rack damage (opp:19), play land attack for 2 (me:18)
    t3 - pass
    t3 - take rack damage (opp:18), cant attack since factory can pump block, rack gives inevitability

    OTD
    t1 - land leopard or else I blackmail leopard and win
    t1 - swamp blackmail gear
    t2 - same result as above

    win/win

    20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim
    OTP
    t1 - swamp blackmail, has to hide island, take force spike
    t1 - island guardian
    t2 - factory rack
    t2 - take rack damage (opp:18) claim factory attack for 1 (me:19)
    t3 - rack outraces guardian

    OTD
    t1 - island pass
    t1 - factory eot guardian
    t2 - if he claims then I cast rack and outrace, if he leaves mana for spike I outrace with factory

    win/win

    26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold

    I think rack outraces OTP and OTD

    win/win

    28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager

    OTP
    t1 - swamp blackmail, he forces (opp:19) or else he loses (hides island or rampager, either cant cast spells or cant race)
    t1 - island rampager (1 energy)
    t2 - factory rack
    t2 - rack damage (opp:17), rampager (2 energy)
    t3 - attack with factory (opp:15)
    t3 - rack damage (opp:13) cast rampager
    t4 - rack and factory outrace rampager

    OTD
    same as OTD except opponent gets rampager out at 17 life I think?

    win/win



    total if everything is correct: 143
    Last edited by phonics; 02-25-2019 at 03:30 AM.

  10. #250

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader

    I think I win both

    OTP
    t1 - blackmail take any card and win

    OTD
    t1 - plays crusader
    t1 - factory rack
    t2 - take rack damage (17) attack (2 infect)
    t2 - swamp go
    t3 - take rack damage (14) cant attack because I can trade with factory block pump giving it 3 power to survive first trike, vice gives inevitability
    Remember, one factory will never trade with Crusader - first strike + infect removes it entirely after the +1/+1 wears off (more specifically, it will have two -1/1 counters and will die upon next activation) and Crusader lives through the combat since it only takes 1 damage after first strike.

    So:
    17 2i
    14 block
    11 4i
    8 6i
    5 8i
    2 10i - infect wins

    Correct?

    EDIT: Post below is correct, attacking with Factory wins the race. Updating my scores.

  11. #251

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    "You" (phonics) vs Dan Pyre

    Dan: T1 Crusader
    You: Factory Rack
    Dan: Rack down to 17, attack (2 infect)
    You: Swamp go
    Dan: Rack down to 14, attack, you block pump

    If you block+pump you don't trade because infect shrinks your factory to a 1/1 before normal-strike damage
    Then it has 2 minus counters on it so you can never activate it again

    You:
    Dan: Rack down to 11, 4 infect
    You:
    Dan: Rack down to 8, 6 infect
    You:
    Dan: Rack down to 5, 8 infect
    You:
    Dan: Rack down to 2, kill you

    However you still win this matchup if you play differently

    Dan: T1 Crusader
    You: Factory Rack
    Dan: Rack down to 17, attack (2 infect)
    You: Swamp, attack with factory (15)
    Dan: Rack to 12, Attack (4 infect)
    You: Attack (10)
    Dan: Rack to 7, attack (6 infect)
    You: Attack (5)
    Dan: Rack to 2, attack (8 infect)
    You: Attack for game

    At any point if he leaves his crusader back to block then you just don't attack and he loses to the rack

    EDIT:

    Against JosefK, On the play you win but I don't think you have any way to beat them on the draw if they play Swamp+Rack turn 1
    I agree with your results for every other matchup

    - Josef swamp rack
    - Phonics turn 1 factory rack
    - Josef 19 blackmail taking swamp (josef hand is therapy and Phonics hand is uncastable blackmail)
    - Phonics 18
    - Josef 17
    - Phonics 16
    - Josef 15
    - Phonics 14
    - Josef 13
    - Phonics 12
    - Josef 11
    - Phonics 10
    - Josef 9
    - Phonics 8
    - Josef 7
    - Phonics 6
    - Josef 5
    - Phonics 4
    - Josef 3
    - Phonics 2
    - Josef 1
    - Phonics dead

    - Josef swamp rack
    - Phonics swamp blackmail taking blackmail
    - Josef therapy taking the rack
    - Josef wins because phonics is dying to the rack already and can't race with factory

    - Josef swamp rack
    - Phonics swamp rack
    - Josef 19 blackmail taking factory
    - Phonics 18 Blackmail taking therapy
    - Josef 16
    - Phonics 15
    - Josef 13
    - Phonics 12
    - Josef 10
    - Phonics 9
    - Josef 7
    - Phonics 6
    - Josef 4
    - Phonics 3
    - Josef 1
    - Phonics dead

    Edit again:
    I also realised Tylert just straight up beats ronco because the Emrakul trigger shuffles EVERYTHING back
    So he can just play out all his combo and anytime ronco plays Smallpox, anything that was discarded/sacrificed goes back into the library
    Even if ronco plays Smallpox post-Eureka it will shuffle all 4 of Tylert's cards back into his library and ronco will get Emrakuled again before Nether Spirit is lethal
    Thinking about how this affects my result also
    I agree we need/want a spreadsheet for this

    Edit again again:

    Me on the play vs Tylert: turn 1 bog
    Tylert: turn 1 battleground
    Me: bb
    Tylert: City, eureka (I eureka my netherspirit into play, he puts emrakul)
    Me (19, 1 faerie), smallpox, (me 18 Tylert 19) sacrifice my faerie, he sacrifices everything. I assume based on the RNG rules that his battleground shuffles to the bottom of his library because that is the worst outcome of his RNG effect but I'm not sure how this should go officially
    Attack with netherspirit (17)
    Tylert: Draw combopiece #1
    Me: make 1 faerie (17), attack with netherspirit (15)
    Tylert: Draw combopiece #2
    Me: 2nd faerie (16), attack with 1 fae + spirit (12)
    Tylert: Draw combopiece #3
    Me: 3rd faerie (15), attack for 4 (8)
    Tylert: Draw battleground, play it
    Me: 4th faerie (14) attack for 5 (3)
    Tylert: City Eureka -> Emrkaul
    Me: 5th faerie (13) attack, he blocks spirit with emrakul and dies

    If Battleground is not his last card then

    Tylert: Draw last combopiece, City Eureka Emrakul
    Me: 4th Faerie (14) attack for 5. He blocks spirit taking 3 and goes to 5
    Tylert: Emrakul attacks and I die

    Me on the draw:
    Tylert: Turn 1 Battleground
    Me: Bog
    Tylert: City Eureka, I eureka my BB and netherspirit into play, which leads to the same game as with me on the play
    So the result of the match depends on how to resolve the RNG of the Emrakul reshuffle because if Havenwood Battleground is his last card it takes him 1 extra turn to go off a 2nd time. I assume it's ruled as bad as possible for him because it's his card, and therefore the points of our match don't change

    Edit again again again:
    So I went through Tylert other results just to check

    Don't you beat Fallen_Empire even on the draw?
    Empire: T1 Orb
    Tyler: T1 Battleground
    Empire: T2 2 Dreadnoughts
    Tyler: T2 City Eureka
    Empire: T3 Attack for 24, block 1 Dreadnought taking 12
    Tyler: T3 Emrakul attacks and annihilates entire board

    Interestingly without the reshuffle trick you should lose to spartan117 because when you play Eureka he will dump his entire hand onto the battlefield and then you would lose your Emrakul to Tabernacle + Field of Ruin targeting City of Traitors. However with the reshuffle trick you will redraw your combo before you die to Treetop Village, so you still get 6 points
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 02-25-2019 at 08:00 AM.

  12. #252

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    This is too hard, and I have too little time calculating everything. I have updated my scores vs phonics, but I will not participate next round. At least I got 75% of my round 1 deck banned :)

  13. #253
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Interested in standings. Has that been ironed out yet?
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  14. #254
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Here's my quick summary.




    Quick notes.

    1: Asthereal

    Crazy game. Summary I think if I lead Judge, you must force pitching boggle, if I lead Rampager for energy, you have to then lead claim and then force my force or force the followup judge. Two draws.


    20: Beardstorm

    OTP I get to lead judge's which wins the race. OTD you lead Island and hold up force spike, but I get to force zealous. I don't think I get to resolve rampager.


    24: Spirit of the Wretch

    I force the walker, but Karakas+Leyline owns.


    Force seems kinda dumb, I think it dumpsters too many decks.

    If any are wrong please step in. I didn't spend too much time working through the races, and for any that were already posted I used those results
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  15. #255
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook View Post
    If any are wrong please step in. I didn't spend too much time working through the races, and for any that were already posted I used those results
    #13 Don't you lose to H or at best draw? If you force Dryad it gets forced and you can't win the race so you have to hold Greenbelt back right? If you go first, you maybe play familiar in which case you can't force the Dryad or his force, and you lose the race; so instead you Greenbelt and force his force (or his spike) in which case you still draw because you can't with the race. (You can't win the race because you'll be down 3-9 hp or something. Hard to tell which, but I know it's enough that if you attack first you're still behind)

    That's the only one I noticed that I am skeptical of
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  16. #256
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    This may have flown under the radar because taconaught hasent posted his results but a quick scan of he people that did post results revealed that he only loses to decks with the rack and discard, both have since been banned. He also draws very rarely.

    This leads me to believe that something from his deck probably needs to get the axe.

    For reference, his list is force, spazzran, misthollow, and confiscate.
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  17. #257

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    This may have flown under the radar because taconaught hasent posted his results but a quick scan of he people that did post results revealed that he only loses to decks with the rack and discard, both have since been banned. He also draws very rarely.

    This leads me to believe that something from his deck probably needs to get the axe.

    For reference, his list is force, spazzran, misthollow, and confiscate.
    If anything it's probably force. They win the force/griffin mirror because they can always get enough mana to hardcast confiscate and then they win the force fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  18. #258
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    This may have flown under the radar because taconaught hasent posted his results but a quick scan of he people that did post results revealed that he only loses to decks with the rack and discard, both have since been banned. He also draws very rarely.

    This leads me to believe that something from his deck probably needs to get the axe.

    For reference, his list is force, spazzran, misthollow, and confiscate.
    I completely disagree. While people didn't run these cards in the appropriate context, He also loses to:
    * Field of Ruin
    * Rishadan Port (you port him every turn and if you have a threat you win)
    * Hex Parasite, Damping Sphere, Pithing Needle, and similar cards turn his deck off. If you have any two of those (or similar effects) his deck is hosed (as are all storage land decks. Some of these obviously hit other interesting things)
    * Cavern of Souls + good threat (it takes 7 turns for confiscate to turn on. A 3/3 or better wins you the game OTP)
    * Skylasher - you just win the race because he can't do anything until turn 5; in which case you already have 10+ damage on him.
    * Mistcutter Hydra and any strategy that makes him 2/2 or larger.
    * etc (probably dozens of other cards)

    If you lose to a storage land Force-Griffon deck now that we see it's an effective strategy; it's your own fault IMO. There are many ways to hate on it (colorlessly to boot) that one should simply expect to run a card that gets through.

    Many of the above cards are relevant in other situations as well, such as blowing up tabernacle, tapping down a combo-deck's land, removing counters from the "vertical growth" style cards, hosing double-mana lands, etc.

    I think people are too 'ban-happy' right now. We've had exactly one round so far. Let's ride it out for at least a second round

    EDIT: More fun cards to consider Suppression Field, Alpine Moon, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Meekstone, etc

    You can run something dumb like Meekstone, Alpine Moon, Mountain, Mishra's Factory. Bam. You just won against 100% of Force + Griffon decks; most man-land decks; most "beater" decks, and many combo decks (due to land-screw.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  19. #259

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Pyre View Post
    ...
    Yeah you were right in your reasoning, I neglected the fact that infect gives -1/-1 counters.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    ...
    I think you are right as well. So changing JosefK's match to win/loss

    Heres the link to the spreadsheet again if you want to edit in your matches

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-DWkKTIUEXrCmK1idv2xg4Iw64Ik2c9NG05QxYmOL2E/edit?usp=sharing

  20. #260
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    I completely disagree. While people didn't run these cards in the appropriate context, He also loses to:
    * Field of Ruin
    * Rishadan Port (you port him every turn and if you have a threat you win)
    * Hex Parasite, Damping Sphere, Pithing Needle, and similar cards turn his deck off. If you have any two of those (or similar effects) his deck is hosed (as are all storage land decks. Some of these obviously hit other interesting things)
    * Cavern of Souls + good threat (it takes 7 turns for confiscate to turn on. A 3/3 or better wins you the game OTP)
    * Skylasher - you just win the race because he can't do anything until turn 5; in which case you already have 10+ damage on him.
    * Mistcutter Hydra and any strategy that makes him 2/2 or larger.
    * etc (probably dozens of other cards)

    If you lose to a storage land Force-Griffon deck now that we see it's an effective strategy; it's your own fault IMO. There are many ways to hate on it (colorlessly to boot) that one should simply expect to run a card that gets through.

    Many of the above cards are relevant in other situations as well, such as blowing up tabernacle, tapping down a combo-deck's land, removing counters from the "vertical growth" style cards, hosing double-mana lands, etc.

    I think people are too 'ban-happy' right now. We've had exactly one round so far. Let's ride it out for at least a second round

    EDIT: More fun cards to consider Suppression Field, Alpine Moon, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Meekstone, etc

    You can run something dumb like Meekstone, Alpine Moon, Mountain, Mishra's Factory. Bam. You just won against 100% of Force + Griffon decks; most man-land decks; most "beater" decks, and many combo decks (due to land-screw.)
    You dont see a problem with warping the format to include protection from blue creatures that lose to any other reasonable threat?

    As for port you’ll need to land a threat first so your deck can win.
    Hex paradite is kinda ok but you are then forced to run caverns.
    Even with caverns you still have to have a threat that can beat a t5 3/3 so the game doesnt stall.
    Also, at best, your 100% win example just 100% draws as the player is forced to counter alpine and then cast misthollow to block. Not to mention that deck would lose or draw to most of the other decks from our round 1.

    The bottom line is that the cards you suggested are going to be inferior to most other decks not built specifically to beat misthollow force decks.
    Play 4 Card Blind!

    Currently Playing
    Legacy: Dark Depths
    EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid

    Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi

    why cards are so expensive...hoarders

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