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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #361
    Hymn-Slinger
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch View Post
    Wow, the meta game shifts are real. Barely any FoW this time but a ton of all-in strategies. That amount of LEDs 0...
    Great minds think alike!

    My list: 9. spirit of the wretch: City of Traitors, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Inkwell Leviathan


    1. Asthereal: City of Traitors, Chancellor of the Tangle, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eureka
    - Mine ist bigger, but theirs are more. Noone can attack, so we don't 2-2

    2. spartan117: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge
    - Mine ist bigger. 6-0

    3. CptHaddock: Smallpox,Nether Spirit,Lotus Petal,Swamp
    - I can't play anything because then they will kill my Leviathan. They can't play anything because then I will discard that Leviathan and reanimate it. We draw 2-2

    4. Whoshim: Lion's Eye Diamond, Nether Spirit, Bridge From Below, Lingering Souls
    - On the draw I lose to spirit and zombie beatdown. On the play I am able to race. I think. lots of math here... 3-3

    5. ronco: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Island, Force Spike
    - Mine ist bigger. And I have enough mana to pay for the Spike 6-0

    6. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Assassin's Trophy, Elixir of Immortality
    - Mine ist bigger. And has shroud. 6-0

    7. PirateKing: Academy Ruins, Dimir Aqueduct, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager
    - Mine ist bigger. I think. That is one hell of a math list! 6-0

    8. FTW: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Hymn to Tourach, Shrieking Affliction
    - Mine ist bigger. 6-0

    10. JackaBo: City of traitors, Steel overseer, Steel overseer, Steel overseer
    - The Overseers race me. This list is REALLY awesome. Mad props! 0-6

    11. Ace/Homebrew: Commandeer, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Memnite
    - I can't beat any of those cards... Very good Metagame call I think. 0-6

    12. Tylert: Ancient Tomb, Field of ruins, phyrexian revoker, lupine prototype
    - On the play I get my fatty down and win. On the draw they disable my LED and they win. 3-3

    13. apple713: city of traitors, elixir of immortality, ratchet bomb, lupine prototype
    - Mine ist bigger. 6-0

    14. H: Unburial Rites, Lion's Eye Diamond, Inkwell Leviathan, Plains
    - Hehehe, this deck seems familiar. But Plains is a weak choice :). Still 2-2

    15. kombatkiwi: Karakas, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Angler Turtle
    - Mine ist bigger. 6-0

    => 54 Points if (big IF) my math is correct...
    Looks right to me and my obvious deckbuilding mistake didn't cost me in any of the matchups (well, it did in one, so -3), so I think I'd end up with 51 points. I was about to submit a totally different list, but then realized it didn't work, so I just quick audibled to something simple.
    Last edited by H; 03-06-2019 at 08:54 AM.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  2. #362
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Looks right to me and my obvious deckbuilding mistake didn't cost me in any of the matchups, so I think we do both end up with 54 points. I was about to submit a totally different list, but then realized it didn't work, so I just quick audibled to something simple.
    What about vs ronco? he can force spike your unburial rites on the play and win with vial after.
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  3. #363
    Hymn-Slinger
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    What about vs ronco? he can force spike your unburial rites on the play and win with vial after.
    Ah, yeah, I missed that. I'll edit my total.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  4. #364

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Wow I really called this metagame wrong. I expected people to avoid all-in creature strats (Eureka, Unburial Rites) because of Leyline+Karakas, and to see more FoW decks again. My deck beats both FoW decks and Karakas decks but loses hard to turn 1 combo.

    Me: FTW: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Hymn to Tourach, Shrieking Affliction

    1. Asthereal: Lose to T1 combo. 0-6 (0)
    2. spartan117: Factory holds off 4 1/1s before they kill me, but I can't attack or get Affliction online. Stalemate. 2-2 (2)
    3. CptHaddock: You can Smallpox me off Factory, but Affliction races Nether Spirit. 6-0 (8)
    4. Whoshim: If you attack with Nether Spirit, I attack back and Factory + Affliction wins the race. If you leave it as a blocker, I hold back Factory and Affliction outraces Lingering Souls. 6-0 (14)
    5. ronco: You have to save Force Spike for Hymn. Then Factory + Affliction kill you before Vial gets to 7. 6-0 (20)
    6. Wrath of Pie: OTP Hymn wrecks your slow lands and you can't keep enough to recover. OTD you get Rot Farm and Elixir out before I Hymn, so you can get everything back, destroy all my permanents, gain infinite life, and kill me. 3-3 (23)
    7. PirateKing: OTP or OTD I T1 Affliction T2 Hymn. You can discard creatures and keep land, recovering with Academy, but Affliction + Factory races before you get Hangarback or Ravager big enough. 6-0 (29)
    8. FTW: Me.
    9. spirit of the wretch: I lose to T1 combo. 0-6 (29)
    10. JackaBo: OTP I Hymn 2 Overseers. Affliction + Factory beats 1 Overseer. OTD you get 2 Overseers and race me. 3-3 (32)
    11. Ace/Homebrew: I don't cast spells. Factory beats Memnite. 6-0 (38)
    12. Tylert: OTP you only get Lupine before Hymn. We each deal 5, but my upkeep damage wins the race. OTD you play everything and kill Factory. 3-3 (41)
    13. apple713: I can't beat Elixir. You recover, kill Affliction, race Factory, and gain infinite life. 0-6 (41)
    14. H: I lose to T1 combo. 0-6 (41)
    15. kombatkiwi: I dodge Turtle and get you to 1 before Turtle kills me. 0-6 (41)

    Total: 41 points

    Bannings:
    I'd like both Elixir of Immortality and Lupine Prototype banned. Like The Rack, these cards are colorless (can be splashed in any deck), are live turn 1 on 1 land (low investment), and become overpowered due to the unique format rules affecting the draw step, library and hand size.

    I think FoW, Eureka, Leyline of Singularity and Shrieking Affliction are fine.

  5. #365

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    T2: Field of ruins, revoker (naming Deputy of detention, yes it is the optimal play) (16)
    Suboptimal line! Revoker should name Atogatog.

  6. #366

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch View Post
    14. H: Unburial Rites, Lion's Eye Diamond, Inkwell Leviathan, Plains
    - Hehehe, this deck seems familiar. But Plains is a weak choice :). Still 2-2
    Not as weak as Tundra (which would give you 6-0).

  7. #367
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Not as weak as Tundra (which would give you 6-0).
    Well, he could have played Thalakos Lowlands.
    Yup, there it is again!

    Also, I'm still not over the fact that in one of my games I get dealt 122 damage on turn one.
    This format is sick.



    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Hmm.. it's only unfair because the total points depend on the number of players, which changes between rounds.

    Instead, what if you use average score per round (round total points / # of other players in the round) and added those up? Then there's no bias towards large pods or small pods and it still gives you credit for how your deck did when you don't top 4. Keep a running tally of those averages. For example, if you scored 90 pts in a pod with 18 players, that's an average score of 90/17=5.29 pts per match. If next round you get 50 pts with 21 players, that's 50/20=2.5 pts per match. Total score = 5.29 + 2.5 = 7.79 pts.

    In the current system, 5th place and 30th place get the same points, so it fails to distinguish between above average performance and getting thrashed.

    I realize I'm saying this entirely out of self-interest, missing 4th by 1 point (that I possibly could have gotten by digging deep to find a more optimal line somewhere), but I also think this is a useful scoring system in general.
    We can't really change the competition rules after the season has started.
    But I'm definitely open to suggestions, if people don't really like the current system.
    I'm only using this system because last time I played 4CB we had something similar (which I'm pretty sure they blatently stole from Formula 1).
    Back then we also had bonus stuff (X points for if you managed to draw all your games, Y points for winning every match 6-0), but I didn't want to start with that.

    What we could do for season 2, for instance, is a weighed score. Something like this:
    - Each round, you gain your points for the games (3 per win, 1 per draw, two games per opponent).
    - Then you take all your points and divide it by the number of opponents you had. This is your season points score for the round.

    Example:
    This round, I score 47 points against 14 opponents. That would be 3.357... season points.
    The disadvantage is that if you only participate in half the rounds, but you dominate those, you won't get very far.
    The advantage is the exact same argument: everybody who participates consistently will be rewarded for it, even if he/she scores somewhat poorly.

    It's not hard to implement. I can easily add formulas to the Google Spreadsheet to make this all work. Turning the whole thing into one big dynamic monstrosity with an automatically updating season table that also re-arranges itself whenever someone should move up a rank is beyond me, but I am okay with the additional manual labour. And there might be an Excel hero willing to help out.

    So I guess what remains is asking the question: Who's in favour of such a scoring method for season 2?

  8. #368

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    What we could do for season 2, for instance, is a weighed score. Something like this:
    - Each round, you gain your points for the games (3 per win, 1 per draw, two games per opponent).
    - Then you take all your points and divide it by the number of opponents you had. This is your season points score for the round.
    That sounds like the exact same thing I suggested...

    Yes, I would be in favor of that for Season 2. I agree changing it mid-season is unfair.

  9. #369
    Folk Punk Pirate
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Not as weak as Tundra (which would give you 6-0).
    Well, yeah. Also not as weak as Island of Wak-Wak which would lose every match becauseit doesn't produce mana...
    Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.

  10. #370
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post

    So I guess what remains is asking the question: Who's in favour of such a scoring method for season 2?
    Someone mentionned Average score vs an opponent so a round with a lot of people gets you as much points as a round vs no opponents and rewards someone who crushes the field.

    But in the end, I don't care. I like the format, the score is not really important.
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  11. #371
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    That sounds like the exact same thing I suggested...

    Yes, I would be in favor of that for Season 2. I agree changing it mid-season is unfair.
    I may have misread or misinterpreted your remarks.

    But cool, thanks for responding.
    If more people are in favour, I'll change the scores for season 2.

    EDIT: Forgot to add the decks for round 3 to the opening post. I added them just now, so they are easier to find.

  12. #372

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    6. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Assassin's Trophy, Elixir of Immortality

    1. Asthereal (TO): City of Traitors, Chancellor of the Tangle, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eureka WW - Eureka's symmetry means that I will always have Rot Farm to immediately Trophy away one of the Changles on my turn (you have to Eureka both because of Trophy), and I redraw Trophy fast enough to deal with the other Changle.
    2. spartan117: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge WW
    3. CptHaddock: Smallpox,Nether Spirit,Lotus Petal,Swamp DD - You lose if you cast Smallpox before I play Treetop Village, and I can't do anything without it.
    4. Whoshim: Lion's Eye Diamond, Nether Spirit, Bridge From Below, Lingering Souls WW - Trophy the Souls tokens, Elixir to a high life total, then start the slow beatdown does the trick, because Treetop Village has trample.
    5. ronco: Chancellor of the Tangle, Aether Vial, Island, Force Spike WW
    7. PirateKing: Academy Ruins, Dimir Aqueduct, Hangarback Walker, Arcbound Ravager WW
    8. FTW: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Hymn to Tourach, Shrieking Affliction WL
    9. spirit of the wretch: City of Traitors, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Inkwell Leviathan LL
    10. JackaBo: City of traitors, Steel overseer, Steel overseer, Steel overseer WW
    11. Ace/Homebrew: Commandeer, Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Memnite WW
    12. Tylert: Ancient Tomb, Field of ruins, phyrexian revoker, lupine prototype LL
    13. apple713: city of traitors, elixir of immortality, ratchet bomb, lupine prototype WW - I can Trophy away City in a way that you can't shuffle it back with Elixir.
    14. H: Unburial Rites, Lion's Eye Diamond, Inkwell Leviathan, Plains LL
    15. kombatkiwi: Karakas, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Angler Turtle DD - I can get Elixir down fast enough, and Angler Turtle only has 5 power.

    17w4d = 55 points

    Hopefully I didn't screw up too badly, Elixir leads to complicated math.
    Last edited by Wrath of Pie; 03-06-2019 at 11:51 AM.

  13. #373
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Hopefully I didn't screw up too badly, Elixir leads to complicated math.
    To be honest. I was mad at all the people posting elixir of immortality decks :) You have to think very hard to either find the optimal line or calculate if you can race the deck or not :)
    Death and taxes!!

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  14. #374
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    6. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Assassin's Trophy, Elixir of Immortality

    1. Asthereal (TO): City of Traitors, Chancellor of the Tangle, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eureka WW - Eureka's symmetry means that I will always have Rot Farm to immediately Trophy away one of the Changles on my turn (you have to Eureka both because of Trophy), and I redraw Trophy fast enough to deal with the other Changle.
    Oh right. Elixir shuffles back your Trophy as well.

    OTP and OTD are the same (Village either enters through normal play or via Eureka.
    Elixir will shuffle back both cards in for you the least useful order, but it doesn't matter.
    Elixir gains you life and makes my clock a 5 turn clock. That's way too slow.

    That's 6-0 for you. I'll adjust my scores.

  15. #375
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post

    Bannings:
    I'd like both Elixir of Immortality and Lupine Prototype banned. Like The Rack, these cards are colorless (can be splashed in any deck), are live turn 1 on 1 land (low investment), and become overpowered due to the unique format rules affecting the draw step, library and hand size.
    For me: To be added to the Watchlist:

    - Lupine prototype
    - Field of ruins

    I would not say that elixir is busted, because you have to devote multiple slots to it or stay colorless.
    Death and taxes!!

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  16. #376

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    kombatkiwi: 40 POINTS

    Unburial Rites
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Angler Turtle
    Karakas

    1. Asthereal (City Tangle Tangle Eureka): +0
    Chancellors too big

    2. spartan117 (Forge Forge Forge Forge): +6
    Well apparently somebody phoned it in even harder than me lol

    3. CptHaddock (Smallpox Netherspirit Petal Swamp): +2
    Stalemate, I just never play anything and then if he Smallpoxes me I discard Turtle and Reanimate it

    4. Whoshim (LED NetherSpirit Bridge Souls): +6
    Me 16
    Opp 15
    Me 12
    Opp 10
    Me 8
    Opp 5
    Me 4
    Opp Dead

    5. Ronco (Tangle Vial Spike Island): +3
    On the play I make turn 1 Turtle and it wins before Chancellor comes down, on the draw I lose to Force Spike

    6. Wrath of Pie (Treetop RotFarm Trophy Elixir) +2
    They can't kill my Turtle and have to spend all their mana on Elixir every turn but I can't race that

    7. PirateKing (Academy Aqueduct Hangarback Ravager): +6
    Because I'm always forcing everything to attack they will inevitably lose Hangarback at some point in the turn that they cast it, so they need to take 2 turns to return it and replay it again. This gives me a window where they spend 1 turn not casting anything and all the Ravager/Thopter must attack allowing me to kill on the swingback

    8. FTW (Urborg Factory Hymn Affliction): +6
    On the play I win the race at 3 life and on the draw I win at 1 life

    9. Spirit of the Wretch (City LED Rites Inkwell): +0
    Turtle doesn't have a big enough ass

    10: JackaBo: (City, Overseer, Overseer, Overseer) +3
    Holy shit a matchup where the Turtle ability actually wins a game that Inkwell loses
    Play:
    Me: Turtle
    Opp: Overseer
    Me: Hit to 15
    Opp: Overseer, activate (2x 2/2)
    Me: Hit to 10
    Opp: Overseer, activate 2x (2 4/4 and 1 3/3)
    Me: Hit to 5
    Opp: Everything has to attack or pump, which is not lethal.
    Draw:
    Replace "hit to 5" with "hit to 10" and then they crack back for 11 and win the race

    11: Ace/Homebrew (Commandeer Force Misstep Memnite): +0
    Force + Memnite beats my deck

    12: TylerT (Tomb Field Revoker Prototype): +3
    On the draw I lose because he Revokers my LED and on the play I win because I get turn1 Turtle and if he casts any creature it gets eaten immediately

    13: apple713 (City Elixir Bomb Prototype) +3
    Draw:
    Opp: Bomb, 1 Charge
    Me: Turtle
    Opp: 2 Charge, Elixir
    Me: Hit to 15
    Opp: 3 Charge, gain 5 to 20
    Me: Hit to 15
    Opp: 4 Charge, cast elixir
    Me: Hit to 10
    Opp: 5 Charge, gain 5 to 15
    Me: Hit to 10
    Opp: 6 Charge, cast elixir
    Me: Hit to 5
    Opp: 7 Charge, gain 5 to 10
    Me: Hit to 5
    Opp: Bomb goes off and I lose
    Play:
    Me: Turtle
    Opp: Bomb, 1 Charge
    Me: Hit to 15
    Opp: 2 Charge, Elixir
    Me: Hit to 10
    Opp: 3 Charge, gain 5 to 15
    Me: Hit to 10
    Opp: 4 Charge, cast elixir
    Me: Hit to 5
    Opp: 5 Charge, gain 5 to 10
    Me: Hit to 5
    Opp: 6 Charge, must cast Proto because they die if they cast elixir
    Me: Attack, Proto Block
    Opp: 7 Charge, cast elixir
    Me: Attack for lethal

    14: H (Rites LED Inkwell Plains) +0
    Inkwell > Turtle again

  17. #377

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    6. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Assassin's Trophy, Elixir of Immortality

    3. CptHaddock: Smallpox,Nether Spirit,Lotus Petal,Swamp DD - You lose if you cast Smallpox before I play Rot Farm, and I can't do anything without it.
    Don't you lose each time? You cast treetop, he casts petal and swamp, followed by smallpox and you never can play the Farm or the elixir, hence you never can recur the treetop?

  18. #378

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    To be honest. I was mad at all the people posting elixir of immortality decks :) You have to think very hard to either find the optimal line or calculate if you can race the deck or not :)
    I just wanted to make Trophy good enough.

    There are other recursion engines but they are a lot slower.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    So I guess what remains is asking the question: Who's in favour of such a scoring method for season 2?
    Fine with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darklingske View Post
    Don't you lose each time? You cast treetop, he casts petal and swamp, followed by smallpox and you never can play the Farm or the elixir, hence you never can recur the treetop?
    I never play Treetop Village until he casts Smallpox (I discard Trophy) which does not happen because he otherwise loses, so we definitely draw. Fixed my matchup note because of that.

  19. #379

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I never play Treetop Village until he casts Smallpox (I discard Trophy) which does not happen because he otherwise loses, so we definitely draw.
    Right, I keep forgetting that we have ideal hand knowledge, duh!!

  20. #380

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    4. Whoshim: Lion's Eye Diamond, Nether Spirit, Bridge From Below, Lingering Souls WW - Trophy the Souls tokens, Elixir to a high life total, then start the slow beatdown does the trick, because Treetop Village has trample.
    You forgot Bridge from Below. Every time he chumps with Nether Spirit he gets a 2/2 zombie token. He chumps 10 times, taking 10 trample and making 10 2/2 zombies. He can eventually swarm you with zombies or gangblock Treetop. Even if you EOT Trophy it, he gets a zombie. I think you're forced to draw by using Elixir every turn for infinite life.

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