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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #141
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    There is no unknown. Decklists are public and if there is a line that gets a better result, it's taken.
    As others are saying, Cabal Therapy is busted in this narrow format, so it'll be out with Thoughtseize and Blackmail.
    Gotcha. I would argue that due to perfect information Therapy is definitely a ban-worthy card then. Format isn't really blind then, amiright?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
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  2. #142
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Gotcha. I would argue that due to perfect information Therapy is definitely a ban-worthy card then. Format isn't really blind then, amiright?
    I don't know the origin if the name, but yeah. Round 1 is wild west. Didn't plan for Misstep either
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  3. #143
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    13. H: 0-0-1 (2pts 32 total) We end up standing off either way. If I go for a Sphere OTP you'll force it, so it's the same. You can't attack into me and I can't win the race attacking into you. (If I attack I have no mana for Factory #2 to block.)
    Hmmm, I forgot about the mana issue with that. Seems you'd be right, that would be a draw.

    Perhaps I need to reevaluate my other losses to Factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    18. Ace/Homebrew: 0-0-2; (2pts 47 total) you pump Myth until he's 4/4 or bigger; but can't win the race I think (at 5/5 OTP you're at 6 HP) so we stalemate since you can block/win
    Wouldn't then Myth win the game, because he can bring it all the way to a 20/20 and you'd have to block. At which point, he wins, because he is still at 6 and a crack-back would only take him to 4 and blocking only delays the inevitable.
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  4. #144
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    can we also ban meddling mage? seems not so fun. :)

    leyline of anticipation, 2 lotus petal, meddling mage. (feels similar to the cabal therapy lines)

    how do i find my results?
    -rob

  5. #145
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    how do i find my results?
    Post your best estimates, other players confirm/correct. Waiting for poor Asthereal to grind through all of them is a torture I wouldn't want to inflict on him.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  6. #146
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    FTW's Results for S01R01: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare

    1. Asthereal (TO): Draw both ways. 2-2 (2)
    2. PirateKing: I can Therapy Racks or Lupine, but the other outraces Student. 0-6 (2)
    3. Matsu: I call Judge for violating the Legacy B/R. Alternately, you Mental Misstep both Therapy and Student. 0-6 (2)
    4. CptHaddock: Same as #3. You Misstep Therapy and Force Student. 0-6 (2)
    5. Taconaut: OTP I Therapy and you FoW it. Student is 1 turn too slow, putting you to 4 (Level 6) the turn before you would Confiscate. I flashback Therapy Confiscate and you cast Griffin FTW. OTD I'm 2 turns too slow. 0-6 (2)
    6. Mr. Safety: OTP I Therapy Bridge and Student wins. OTD you play Bridge, I Therapy Tongs, and we draw. 4-1 (6)
    7. Clx33: Therapy trades with Force, Propaganda locks student, and Griffin flies over FTW. 0-6 (6)
    8. Fallen_Empire: I Therapy Dreadnoughts and Student wins. 6-0 (12)
    9. tescrin: OTP I Therapy Sphere. Student plays defense until level 7, then crushes face. OTD you sac Vein to play Sphere and I can't play spells. 3-3 (15)
    10. PapriNgomo: I Therapy Leopard or Gear and Student wins. 6-0 (21)
    11. ronco: Leyline! OTP I Therapy Smallpox and Student wins. OTD if you play turn 1 Smallpox, I discard Cabal Therapy and cast Student FTW. If you hold back Smallpox, I Therapy it and win with Student. 6-0 (27)
    12. JackaBo: OTP I Therapy Thought-Knot Seer and Student beats Gray Ogre. OTD you Thought-Knot me and I lose. 3-3 (30)
    13. H: Therapy trades with your counters. You can FoW it, I can Therapy you naming Force Spike, or you can Force Spike Therapy OTD. Then Student beats Dryads. 6-0 (36)
    14. mistercakes: OTP I Therapy Obliterator, then Student beats through Shield Sphere. OTD Obliterator wrecks me. 3-3 (39)
    15. Dan Pyre: OTP I Therapy Crusader and win. OTD Crusader has pro-white FTW. 3-3 (42)
    16. kombatkiwi: Bitterblossom can outrace Student. You suck up some hits to get to 3 tokens, then attack with 2 and chump forever. The 2 tokens narrowly outrace Bitterblossom life loss (OTP you'd win at 1 life). Therefore I must force a draw. I reveal Leyline, Therapy Bitterblossom, and Smallpox stops Student. 2-2 (44)
    17. Tylert: For fun, I could Therapy Emrakul instead. It gets exiled due to Leyline. 6-0 (50)
    18. Ace/Homebrew: I can force you to trade and draw because Student gets in too many early hits. See below. 2-2 (52)
    19. spartan117: I Therapy Vineyard, shutting off Treetop Village and Field of Ruin. I cast Student and pay the upkeep forever while beating you for 1. 6-0 (58)
    20. beardstorm: OTP if I Therapy either Force Spike or Sea's Claim the other one stops Student, so I take Guardian and force a draw. OTD you Force Spike my first play (Therapy/Student), then Sea's Claim to stop the other and win with Guardian. 1-4 (59)
    21. phonics: I don't play Leyline. OTP I lead with Student. You play The Rack, then next turn Blackmail one of my 2 cards. Student holds off Factory, but The Rack bleeds me for 2 a turn. Student gets to level 7, but a turn too slow to win the race. OTD I have to hide Scrubland from Blackmail, you take Student and win. 0-6 (59)
    22. Sloshthedark: I can Therapy Sphere OTP, but Inky outraces Student. 0-6 (59)
    23. JosefK: I fail to play Leyline. OTP I play Student, keep leveling, and outrace The Rack. OTD you play Rack and Student is 1 turn too slow. 3-3 (62)
    24. spirit of the wretch: OTP I Therapy Walker and draw. OTD 1/1 Walker kills me. 1-4 (63)
    25. apple713: Mana Tithe and Therapy trade (either I Therapy it or you counter it). Student outraces Factory. 6-0 (69)
    26. Darklingske: I Therapy Punishing Fire and Leyline exiles it. I play Student, pay the upkeep forever, and beat you for 1. 6-0 (75)
    27. FTW: That's me.
    28. Kap'n Cook: OTP I Therapy Judge's Familiar, then Student outraces Rampager. OTD you lead with Rampager (to get energy), I Therapy Judge's Familar, and Student still outraces you by 1 turn (hits Level 7). 6-0 (83)

    Total: 83 points.


    Grind vs Ace (you going first)
    T1 - You play Myth. I play Student.
    T2 - Level 1. I attack for 1. EOT you add 1 lore. (19)
    T3 - L2. Attack for 3. EOT you go to 2 Lore. (16)
    T4 - L3. Attack for 3. EOT 3rd Lore. (13)
    T5 - L4. Attack for 3. You still can't profitably block (first strike), so EOT 4th Lore. (10)
    T6 - If you attack for 4, I outrace you, so you hold. L5. I can't attack. EOT 5th lore.
    T7 - If you attack for 5, I outrace you, so you hold. L6. I can't attack. EOT 6th lore.
    T8 - L7. 4/4 double strike. I attack. You block as a 6/6 and trade, or you go to 2 and trade as a 7/7 next turn. (If you attacked, I win the race)

    Lol I was going to run removal or another threat (The Rack, Doomed Traveler for Therapy shenanigans) in place of Leyline, but I was too worried about beating Unburial Rites -> Iona. Leyline turned out to be bad.

    Edit: I forgot Leyline beats Darklingske's Punishing Fire.
    Edit2: JosefK actually trades games with me.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-20-2019 at 04:42 PM.

  7. #147
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Wouldn't then Myth win the game, because he can bring it all the way to a 20/20 and you'd have to block. At which point, he wins, because he is still at 6 and a crack-back would only take him to 4 and blocking only delays the inevitable.
    I believe you're correct, rethinking it. I was thinking you had to choose between pumping vs blocking (basically during your own upkeep) but you can actually pump if I don't attack. I'll go revise
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  8. #148
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Could someone double, or triple check this for me?

    At first I figured this was a loss, but tescrin pointed out that even if he doesn't bother to cast Sphere (and he shouldn't, there isn't a point) he doesn't have the mana to both attack with a Factory and block with the other profitably. So, I think that means we'd both just be in a stalemate, because it will always end up better for him to not attack. I think.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  9. #149
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Could someone double, or triple check this for me?

    At first I figured this was a loss, but tescrin pointed out that even if he doesn't bother to cast Sphere (and he shouldn't, there isn't a point) he doesn't have the mana to both attack with a Factory and block with the other profitably. So, I think that means we'd both just be in a stalemate, because it will always end up better for him to not attack. I think.
    Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.

    With you OTP Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  10. #150
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.
    I think you're right. I was thinking he got to get an attack in so I couldn't win the race; but if I defend T2 then he can't attack without losing, and he can't block without losing. I'll go make amendment #3 to my post haha
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  11. #151
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Post your best estimates, other players confirm/correct. Waiting for poor Asthereal to grind through all of them is a torture I wouldn't want to inflict on him.
    how do i see everyone's lists? is there a post somewhere? i didn't see it on opening post.
    -rob

  12. #152
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    A little annoyed about Mental Misstep because I pushed for it's legality, but read ''Legacy Banned List' + cards'... Oh well, my all in on a 1 drop deck got worse.

    1. Asthereal: Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island - 0, 0
    2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype - 0, 0
    3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep - 0, 0
    4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep - 0, 0
    5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate - 0, 0
    6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs - 1, 1 ( Tongs says 'target' and I have 'can't be targetedable')
    7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda - 0, 0
    8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought - 0, 0
    9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory - 3, 3
    10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear - 3, 3 (it takes 6 turns but MR finally gets big enough then we stare at each other until MR threatens lethal and you chump, then take lethal the following turn)
    11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal - 1, 1
    12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thoughtknot-seer - 0, 0 (assuming lowest life breaks draws, cause we'd draw when I'm OTP)
    13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - 0, 0
    14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator - 0, 0
    15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader - 0, 0
    16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox - 0, 0
    17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - 0, 0
    18. Ace/Homebrew
    19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin - 0, 0
    20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim - 0, 0
    21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack - 0, 0
    22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance - 0, 0
    23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack - 0, 0
    24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker - 0, 0
    25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void - 3, 3
    26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold - 3, 3
    27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare - 0, 0
    28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager - 0, 0

    I count 28

    JackaBo, re-check your math. Pretty sure you win OTP and we draw OTD, but I'd lose because it'd end with me at 4 life and you at 20.

    Mr. Safety, re-read our cards.

    Blackmail and Cabal Ritual for banning. Misstep for unbanning (along with other safe cards on the Legacy Banned list).

  13. #153
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.

    With you OTP Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw.
    That makes sense, yeah, so it's should actually be a 1 for me (a draw and a loss) and 4 for tescrin (a win and a draw). Basically, on the play, he has the option to win the race, on the draw, not.
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  14. #154
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    how do i see everyone's lists? is there a post somewhere? i didn't see it on opening post.
    look here
    Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    can we also ban meddling mage? seems not so fun. :)

    leyline of anticipation, 2 lotus petal, meddling mage. (feels similar to the cabal therapy lines)

    how do i find my results?
    Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.

    I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.
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  16. #156
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.

    I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.
    Not to mention losing to Force of Will. This is why I think Force is healthy to have, but maybe not Griffin.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.

    I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.
    I believe you have the same issues with Mind Maggots* Tidehollow Sculler and other related cards though (in that deck) or if they play those T1. That said, all the decks that play that T1 lose to Chalice decks (which funny enough, was heavily meta-gamed and no one ran it hah!) which was part of why I didn't run a Maggots deck. Those decks are also hyper-weak to removal (such as the heavyweight deck.)


    *wrong name. Different maggot card that Sculler's the opp
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  18. #158
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think Leyline of Anticipation might be something that has to go in order to keep other cards off the banned list.

  19. #159

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I made things annoying for myself by having to do bitterblossom math
    It's getting late and I didn't get through all of it but I will at least confirm what other people have said

    Looking at what other people have said vs me:

    Asthereal: Agree
    Tylert: Agree
    Spirit of the Wretch: Agree
    PirateKing: Agree
    H: I think you actually win if you're on the play. In your calculation it seems like you evaluated it as if I played Bitterblossom on my turn 1, which is impossible (you do lose when I'm on the play though)
    JackaBo: Agree
    apple713: Agree
    Mr. Safety: Agree (The Rack is 'in general' better than Tongs but probably not for you, because if you had Rack instead of Tongs in your deck your opponents worst case is always a draw by just choosing not to do anything)
    tescrin: Agree
    FTW: Agree
    Ace/Homebrew: Agree

    I've figured out all of the non-tricky ones and will post full results when I go through the rest tomorrow

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    I think Leyline of Anticipation might be something that has to go in order to keep other cards off the banned list.
    Giving up 1 of your 4 cards to play a card before your opponent doesnt seem good enough. There isnt much you can do with 3 cards to win. Keep in mind you dont get to play land drops instantly so there isnt much you can do with 1-2 mana during opponents turn that will completely bone them.
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