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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #461
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I learned something about hideaway today (that never comes up in 3CB), looks like I need to look at all my matchups again.

    EDIT: Hopefully I got all the matches right this time. I also win on the play against the Scepter/Selesnya Charm hand.

    EDIT2: I can cast LED through a Sphere with Shelldock mana and LED makes 3 mana and Shelldock only requires 1 to activate, that means I win against FTW on the play and force a draw against Tylert (has to sac City to play Field, which destroys Shelldock).
    Me OTP:

    T1 = City / sphere. You = Shelldock
    T2 = Chrono. You = Led Through sphere but shelldock is already there so you can't do anything about that.

    You OTP:

    Your T1 = LED, shelldock isle trigger on the stack, sac LED add three blue, Ulamog's trigger. LED + ulamog + steel overseer go on the top of the Library. resolve shelldock trigger, put ulamog Under shelldock isle, and (as you choose the order) LED on top.
    My T1 = City / Sphere
    Your T2 = LED (paying with shelldock)
    My T2: field destroy shelldock but i loose city, so draw.

    I agree on the 4-1 for me.
    Death and taxes!!

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  2. #462

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Can we just ban anything that makes me do math?

    tia
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  3. #463

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Ah right, you can beat my line.

    But dropping your hand costs 5 mana. Suspend = 1. Electrodominance = 3 (RR+1). Balance = 1 (0 +1). Sphere adds +2 basically.

    I just realized OTP I win this race.

    Me - Double Chrono
    You - DH

    Me - 2/2s
    You - 1 counter

    Me - 3/3s
    You - 2 counters

    Me - Sphere, Attack [14]
    You - 3 counters

    Me - Attack [8]
    You - 4 counters

    Me - Attack [2]
    You - 5 counters

    Me - Attack lethal.

    OTD I'm too slow.

    Edit: Fun fact. Double Chrono kills on turn 7 as 2/2s (5 hits of 4 dmg), 3/3s (4 hits of 6 dmg), 4/4s (3 hits of 8 dmg), or 5/5s (2 hits of 10 dmg) so it doesn't actually matter what size they are unless there are enemy blockers or I need to cast Sphere by a certain turn.
    Right, I was right the first time about turn 7 versus Sphere (because it gives +2 since I am casting 2 spells), then goofed the second time.

    On the play, you don't win the race because you have to drop Sphere. With no Sphere, I only need 3 mana (turn 5) to win.

  4. #464
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    EDIT2: I can cast LED through a Sphere with Shelldock mana and LED makes 3 mana and Shelldock only requires 1 to activate, that means I win against FTW on the play and force a draw against Tylert (has to sac City to play Field, which destroys Shelldock).
    If you have to use Shelldock mana to cast LED, you lose the hideaway ability.
    Because you need to actually use the LED to be able to drop Ula in the yard and then your library.
    Needing to play Shelldock before LED forces you to let the hideaway ability resolve before Ula can ever reach your library.
    Right?

  5. #465
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    If you have to use Shelldock mana to cast LED, you lose the hideaway ability.
    Because you need to actually use the LED to be able to drop Ula in the yard and then your library.
    Needing to play Shelldock before LED forces you to let the hideaway ability resolve before Ula can ever reach your library.
    Right?
    Yes, OTD he cannot win against sphere T1.
    Death and taxes!!

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  6. #466

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    If you have to use Shelldock mana to cast LED, you lose the hideaway ability.
    Because you need to actually use the LED to be able to drop Ula in the yard and then your library.
    Needing to play Shelldock before LED forces you to let the hideaway ability resolve before Ula can ever reach your library.
    Right?
    That only works when I am on the draw.

    On the play Sphere can't shop me from hiding Ulamog, then I use Shelldock mana to recast LED and use LED mana to activate Shelldock and pay the additional Sphere tax.

  7. #467
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    Right, I was right the first time about turn 7 versus Sphere (because it gives +2 since I am casting 2 spells), then goofed the second time.

    On the play, you don't win the race because you have to drop Sphere. With no Sphere, I only need 3 mana (turn 5) to win.
    Re-read the line you quoted. Sphere's there. I can cast it on a turn I attack instead of pump, so it doesn't cost me a turn of clock.

  8. #468

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Re-read the line you quoted. Sphere's there. I can cast it on a turn I attack instead of pump, so it doesn't cost me a turn of clock.
    Right. Sorry about that.

    So I can cast Electro + Balance before I die, but I have to discard Gargadon, so we draw when you are on the play and I win when I am on the play, right?

  9. #469
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    Right. Sorry about that.

    So I can cast Electro + Balance before I die, but I have to discard Gargadon, so we draw when you are on the play and I win when I am on the play, right?
    Right, so DL for me, WD for you.

  10. #470
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    That only works when I am on the draw.

    On the play Sphere can't shop me from hiding Ulamog, then I use Shelldock mana to recast LED and use LED mana to activate Shelldock and pay the additional Sphere tax.
    EDIT: Never mind.

    By the way, I'll try to start next round today.

  11. #471

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Opponent Deck OtP OtD Nodes
    1. Asthereal Mishra's Factory, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Mayor of Avabruck 0 0 Can't beat punishing fire
    2. Wrath of Pie Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre 0 0 Can't beat vindicate + annihilator 4.
    3. Whoshim Dwarven Hold, Greater Gargadon, Electrodominance, Restore Balance 0 0 Can sacrifice hold to make me sac all my lands.
    4. CptHaddock Cathedral of War Inkmoth Nexus Maze of Ith The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 0 0  
    5. JackaBo Pendelhaven, inkmoth nexus, drop of honey, field of ruin 1 1 Field either hits maze or inkmoth, I have the other to block or hold back your inkmoth.
    6. Ace/Homebrew Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Unmask, Faerie Macabre 1 1 Maze holds back the dude, and tabernacle kills it if I activate inkmoth you just kill it.
    7. spirit of the wretch Keldon Megaliths, Rakdos Carnarium, Kitesail Freebooter, Ensnaring Bridge 0 0 Bridge ] my deck
    8. Strawberry Dwarf City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Selesnya Charm, Mental Misstep 3 3 Maze/Tabernacle hold back the multiple activations of scepter, inkmoth kills you.
    9. Tylert Sphere of resistance, chronomaton, city of traitors, field of ruins 1 1 Field kills inkmoth, maze holds back chronomaton.
    10. FTW City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance, Chronomaton, Chronomaton 3 3 Maze/Tabernacle hold back Chronomatons, inkmoth is a faster clock.
    11. H Bayou, Encroach, Mind Swords, Young Wolf 1 0 OtP I can play maze before you take it, on the draw you can just take it and then make me discard on your turn 2.
    12. apple713 City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Assassin's Trophy, Steel Overseer 0 0 Trophy kills everything.
    13. PirateKing Cavern of Souls, Noble Hierarch, Nightshade Peddler. Swiftblade Vindicator 3 3 Tabernacle makes you pay for the noble, inkmoth kills faster than that.
    14. kombatkiwi Karakas, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites 1 1 Maze holds back Iona. I can't attack into Iona.

    Total: 27
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  12. #472
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    ROUND 5 of Season 1 (Legacy) FOUR CARD BLIND has started!

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for the round.
    So... you can all start PM'ing me your submission for this fifth round.

    DEADLINE: Wednesday the 20th of March, at 6:00AM Central European Time. (That's my time. Just send me the deck Tuesday evening latest, you'll be fine).

    PLEASE NOTE:
    - The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Goblin Guide, Mogg Fanatic, Pithing Needle, Cavern of Souls (so with card tags around each card, and not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S01R05 in the topic. Many of you already did this for previous rounds. Thanks a lot, this really saves me the time and hassle of copying and pasting text and tags!
    - The banned list (you'll find it in the second post). Don't send in illegal decks. I might catch it and notify you, but if I overlook it, you miss out on the round.
    There are no changes for round 5. Lupine Prototype is still banned. I toyed around with the idea of banning Field of Ruin, but we'll give it another round.
    The list is open for discussion. Cards of the current watchlist are: Lion's Eye Diamond, Eureka, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Leyline of Singularity, Elixir of Immortality and as mentioned Field of Ruin.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.

    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deck designing everybody!

    ABOUT ROUND FOUR:
    If you haven't posted your scores yet. Please do so this weekend, so I can post scores and update standings before the deadline for round 5.
    We also have a public Google Spreadsheet. You can enter your scores there as well.

  13. #473
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    This is the correct answer.

    2. Wrath of Pie: Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
    ...
    8. Strawberry Dwarf: City of Traitors, Isochron Scepter, Selesnya Charm, Mental Misstep WL - The traditional choice here is Lightning Helix, but Charm is way better against me. Hideaway gets you on the play though.
    ...
    18w1d = 55 points
    Well, maybe you win both:
    Me otp
    1. I start City, cast Isochron, imprint Charm, go (can't activate - no mana)
    - you play LED, Isle, in response to hideaway crack LED, discard, reshuffle, resolve hideaway chosing Ulamog, put LED first to draw
    2. I untap and wait
    - you draw and play LED, crack for blue mana, cast Ulamog from hideaway, Ulamog's ability triggers before he comes, targets Isochron - no room to exile Ulamog in response: no target. It's not CIP ability, it resolves before Ulamog enters the battlefield. Ulamog stays unanswered, game over.

    Keywords:
    Ulamog: When you cast Ulamog ...
    Hideaway: ... you may play the exiled card without paying its mana cost ...

    Am I missing something?
    My decks from real paper cards:

    [Modern] Green Deathtouch
    [Vintage] Suicide Red
    [Casual Legacy] Blood Bats
    [Legacy] White Suspend Aggro Control

  14. #474
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry Dwarf View Post
    Well, maybe you win both:
    Me otp
    1. I start City, cast Isochron, imprint Charm, go (can't activate - no mana)
    - you play LED, Isle, in response to hideaway crack LED, discard, reshuffle, resolve hideaway chosing Ulamog, put LED first to draw
    2. I untap and wait
    - you draw and play LED, crack for blue mana, cast Ulamog from hideaway, Ulamog's ability triggers before he comes, targets Isochron - no room to exile Ulamog in response: no target. It's not CIP ability, it resolves before Ulamog enters the battlefield. Ulamog stays unanswered, game over.

    Keywords:
    Ulamog: When you cast Ulamog ...
    Hideaway: ... you may play the exiled card without paying its mana cost ...

    Am I missing something?
    His library will be the least favourable order. That's the rule for all random effects: least favourable for the controller of the effect.
    So usually he will draw Chronomatron first and LED second, giving his opponents an extra turn to deal with Shelldock.

    But I don't think that matters here.

  15. #475
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    His library will be the least favourable order. That's the rule for all random effects: least favourable for the controller of the effect.
    So usually he will draw Chronomatron first and LED second, giving his opponents an extra turn to deal with Shelldock.
    His library will be in the most favorable order, because it's not random. He chooses the order from Hideaway (which resolves after the Ulamog reshuffle).

    Either way, the "cast" trigger kills Isochron Scepter before Charm can kill it. He also can't sandbag his hand till after Ulamog, since Annihilator would kill everything before he would get to both cast and activate Scepter once.

  16. #476

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry Dwarf View Post

    Am I missing something?
    No, you are not.

    I am just bad at calculating results for some reason.

  17. #477
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    No, you are not.

    I am just bad at calculating results for some reason.
    For the same reason as everyone is: It's not that easy to figure the best line for both players (If it was easy, magic would be trivial).

    And GG for the win. i really htought this was mine.
    Death and taxes!!

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  18. #478
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    His library will be in the most favorable order, because it's not random. He chooses the order from Hideaway (which resolves after the Ulamog reshuffle).

    Either way, the "cast" trigger kills Isochron Scepter before Charm can kill it. He also can't sandbag his hand till after Ulamog, since Annihilator would kill everything before he would get to both cast and activate Scepter once.
    Hmm that's interesting. I thought it was random, but I hand't properly read the card.
    Now I have, and it turns out they haven't specified random or chosen order ("any").
    They should have specified it, because it can matter. This makes for unclear situations.

    Slight mistake in card design. Though I guess chosen order is the way to go.

    PS. Slightly under 22 hours to go until the deadline. 10 entries so far.

  19. #479
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Hmm that's interesting. I thought it was random, but I hand't properly read the card.
    Now I have, and it turns out they haven't specified random or chosen order ("any").
    They should have specified it, because it can matter. This makes for unclear situations.

    Slight mistake in card design. Though I guess chosen order is the way to go.

    PS. Slightly under 22 hours to go until the deadline. 10 entries so far.
    It's not really a mistake, so much as that is just how cards are templated. If you put cards on the bottom of the library, you do so in any order unless otherwise specified. So, for example, Cascade specifies that they need to be "random." Some cards specifically remind you at the cards can go back in any order (like Oracle text Impulse) others, like lands with Hideaway, do so in the comprehensive rules, but for brevity, do not on the card itself.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  20. #480
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post

    PS. Slightly under 22 hours to go until the deadline. 10 entries so far.

    I dont know about anyone else hut im struggling to find a new deck that ill be happy with.
    Play 4 Card Blind!

    Currently Playing
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