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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #1341

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    This doesn't make sense. You should have the same result against both decks. Each of them plays turn 1 Stalwart, turn 2 Tactician, turn 3 1/1 (or never play the 3rd creature and grow earlier). After that they get 1 Tactician activation per turn, growing at the same rate. H can't activate both Tacticians in one turn. Gobbo can't both activate Harrier and Tactician. Both can put counters on any of their creatures to spread it around. The math should be the same.

    For the rest of us with Thoughtseize we can discard Gobbo's only Tactician and win easily, but you don't have Thoughtseize.
    I should really not just mirror copy and paste.

    I also should have realized that Mutavault can block earlier, that makes a difference.

  2. #1342
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I would like to point out the fact that that Nip has Lifelink and BitterBlossom has an upkeep cost of minus life so itíll probably affect some of the matches.

    Also, Iím surprised that no one decided to play land, mutavault, devoted druid, creakwood Leige since 3/3s are better than 1/1s.
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  3. #1343
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    I would like to point out the fact that that Nip has Lifelink and BitterBlossom has an upkeep cost of minus life so itíll probably affect some of the matches.

    Also, Iím surprised that no one decided to play land, mutavault, devoted druid, creakwood Leige since 3/3s are better than 1/1s.
    Thoughtseize just wrecks that though. Thoughtseize is also fantastic vs the Nip.

    TS absolutely warped the meta.


    I'd personally like another Block Tour where we ban some of the (now known) meta-warping stuff.

    As for this round, it really is complicated and I have a really hard time abstracting this out. Might need to break out the actual cards when I get home...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  4. #1344

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    H: Plains, Goldmeadow Stalwart, Cenn's Tactician, Cenn's Tactician


    Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Mutavault, Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom
    Bitterblossom math is hard...

    On the Play, I would play Stalwart first. You play Swamp and Thoughtseize, take a Tactician.
    Turn 2, attack with Stalwart, puts you at 16, I play Tactician. You play Muta and Bitterblossom.
    Turn 3, I pump Stalwart and attack, putting you to 13, you make a token, putting you to 12. You could animate Muta and attack, if you do, I go to 18.
    Now, on turn 4, I can make the Stalwart a 4/4, or make a tapped Tactician a 2/2, but also, I can wait to see what you do to decide. If you chump, I can pump the Tactician, setting up to eventually block Muta. If you don't, I can force in the extra point of damage. Taking 4 there means going to 8, which means 7 on your next turn. That is now 3 power swinging at me, 4 power total, on your turn, so putting me to 15, optimistically. Now, if I have a 4/4, it must be blocked, because you need 3 more turns to kill me, but that is two turns. In fact, it's 2 turns if it's a 3/3 as well. So, I think you might not be able to win there.

    On the Draw, you can Seize me Stalwart. However, I'm not sure how much this changes the paradigm. I can still wait on Tactician activations to see where it would be optimal, either on one attacking, or one not (that can later be used to hold off Muta).
    You on the draw:

    BB: Swamp, Thoughtseize Stalwart (BB @ 18)
    H: Plains, Tactician 1
    BB: Mutavault, Bitterblossom
    H: Tactician 2
    BB: Faerie token 1 (BB @ 17)

    If you attack with Tactician 1 and put a counter on it, it trades with Mutavault and then Bitterblossom tokens eventually overwhelm you, thus you hold back.

    H: Do nothing
    BB: Faerie token 2 (BB @ 16), attack with token 1 (H @ 19) eot counter on Tactician 1

    Same problem again: token plus Mutavault trade with a 3/3 Tactician, so you have to hold back again.

    H: Do nothing
    BB: Faerie token 3 (BB @ 15), attack with tokens 1 and 2 (H @ 17), eot counter on Tactician 1

    You can finally attack with Tactician 1, but it just gets chumped forever, and by the time Tactician 2 is relevant, there are just too many Faerie tokens for you to deal with, so you lose on the draw.

    On the play you are definitely too fast to handle.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster View Post
    GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Swamp Mutavault Bitterblossom" aka "Mirror Match Showdown"

    ... Too much math. I'll guess and let one of you guys solve it since they're all about the same anyway.

    Asthereal (TO): Swamp, Mutavault, Thoughtseize, Bitterblossom
    Seems better 0-6

    GoblinSmashmaster: Plains, Cenn's Tactician, Goldmeadow Harrier, Goldmeadow Stalwart
    That's me!
    You definitely lose on the draw, so the interesting question is whether you can sneak out a win on the play.

    GS: Plains, Tactician
    BB: Swamp, Thoughtseize Stalwart (BB @ 18)
    GS: Harrier, attack with Tactician (BB @ 17)
    BB: Mutavault, Bitterblossom
    GS: Counter on Harrier, Attack with Harrier (BB @ 15)
    BB: Faerie token 1 (BB @ 14)

    If you attack with Harrier here, it trades with Mutavault + token, and Tactician loses to Bitterblossom, so you have to hold back.

    GS: Do nothing
    BB: Faerie token 2 (BB @ 13), counter on Harrier

    This seems familiar...

    GS: Do nothing
    BB: Faerie token 3 (BB @ 12), attack with tokens 1 and 2 (GS @ 18), counter on Harrier (is now a 4/4 so it can attack)
    GS: Attack with Harrier, blocked by Faerie token 3
    BB: Faerie token 4 (BB @ 11), attack with tokens 1, 2, and Mutavault (GS @ 14), counter on Tactician

    Because Tactician only trades with Mutavault with a counter, you have to let Mutavault in.

    GS: Attack with Harrier, blocked by Faerie token 4

    At this point Bitterblossom has a problem: Only one token per turn loses the race to two attackers, so the Bitterblossom player is forced to go wide to threaten an all-out trade with either the 4/4 Harrier or the 3/3 Tactician.

    BB: Faerie token 5 (BB @ 10), no attacking to hold back Harrier

    If you attack with Harrier at this point, the three Faerie tokens and Mutavault trade with it, leaving you a 3/3 Tactician, which is preferable at this point.

    GS: Attack with Harrier, trade
    BB: Faerie token 6 (BB @ 9)

    For Bitterblossom to outrace itself, it needs two tokens able to attack, which it cannot afford at this point.

    What if BB instead just focuses on defending against Harrier two more turns to maximize attacking?

    BB: Faerie token 3 (BB @ 12), no attack, counter on Harrier
    GS: Do nothing
    BB: Faerie token 4 (BB @ 11), no attack, counter on Harrier
    GS: Do nothing
    BB: Faerie token 5 (BB @ 10), attack with tokens 1, 2, 3, and 4 (GS @ 16), counter on Tactician
    GS: Attack with Harrier, chumped by token 5
    BB: Faerie token 6 (BB @ 9), attack with tokens 1, 2, 3, 4, and Mutavualt (GS @ 10), counter on Tactician
    GS: Attack with Harrier, chumped by token 6
    BB: Faerie token 7 (BB @ 8), attack with tokens 1, 2, 3, and 4 (GS @ 6), counter on Tactician

    At this point, you cannot win the race, because all-out attacking means you lose on the backswing, swinging with just Harrier means you only delay the inevitable, and doing nothing is not feasible for obvious reasons. Pumping Tactician instead of Harrier just enables BB to attack earlier.

  5. #1345
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Guess I lose this round of chicken. I'll post first and do the work.

    FTW: Swamp, Thoughtseize, Mutavault, Bitterblossom

    1. Asthereal (TO): OTP I TS your Blossom, so you TS my Blossom. Mutavaults crash into each other. OTD you could TS my TS, but then you're down 2 life and lose the Blossom mirror, so the only rational choice is to take my Blossom. DD 2-2.
    2. Wrath of Pie: Even OTP I can't find a scenario where 1 Blossom beats 2 or where I can recover from TS lifeloss. You found the tech to beat the DTB. LL 0-6
    3. Unlif3: Mirror again. DD 2-2
    4. Tylert: TS 1 Prowler, then BB. The 2nd Prowler trades with a token somewhere, I basically ignore it. WW 6-0
    5. H: OTP I win (see Wrath's post). OTD you must lead with Stalwart but I don't have to TS anything, which favors me in the race. Then you're faced with decisions about playing the 2nd Tactician (but shouldn't because you lose tempo). It's more complex than Wrath made it, but I think you still win. WL 3-3
    6. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP I TS Tactician and win. OTD it's much easier than Wrath said. If you lead with Tactician, I Thoughtseize the Harrier and you can't cast Stalwart (no Kithkin in hand)! 1 Tactician/Chronomaton vs Bitterblossom was already solved before, win for me. If you lead with Stalwart, I Thoughtseize Tactician. Blossom + Mutavault beats Stalwart + Harrier. WW 6-0
    7. apple713: OTP I TS Nip. You TS BB. Mutavault kills you. OTD if you play Nip I will TS Edge, so you must TS my TS. I play out Mutavault and BB and win before BB kills me. See below. WW 6-0

    25 points (7 wins, 4 draws)


    FTW vs apple
    A - TS my TS [you=18]
    F - Vault

    A - Nip
    F - Swamp, BB

    A - Edge. Attack for 4 [you=22, me=16]
    F - 1 token. Attack back with Muta for 2. [you=20, me=15]

    A - Attack for 4 [you=24, me=11]
    F - 2nd token. Hold on defense [me=10]
    Now if you attack, your guy trades wth 2 tokens + Vault, so I always leave 2 tokens back.

    A - Pass
    F - 3rd token. Attack with 1. [me=9, you=23]

    A - Pass
    F - 4th token. Attack with 2 [me=8, you=21]

    A - Pass
    F - 5th token. Attack with 3 [me=7, you=18]

    A - Pass
    F - 6th token. Attack with 4 [me=6, you=14]

    A - Pass
    F - 7th token. Attack with 5 [me=5, you=9]

    A - Pass
    F - 8th token. Attack with 6 [me=4, you=3]

    A - Attack with 4/4 to gain life. I trade with Muta + 2 tokens, down to 6 tokens again. [you=7]
    F - 7th token. Attack with 6 [me=3, you=1]

    A - Pass
    F - 8th token. Attack with 7. [me=2, you=-6]

    If you attacked earlier, you still lose the same turn. The +4 life just happens earlier instead of later.

  6. #1346
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Also, Iím surprised that no one decided to play land, mutavault, devoted druid, creakwood Leige since 3/3s are better than 1/1s.
    I also considered the obvious combo: Sapseep Forest, Mutavault, Devoted Druid, Quillspike (infinity/infinity)

    OTP and OTD it outsizes the Tactician decks, the dork + aura decks, and generic aggro. The problem is this LL to Thoughtseize on Druid. The same happens to your Liege deck. Thoughtseize invalidates midrange strategies and combo, so you're stuck with triple threat or Blossom decks.

  7. #1347

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think we can all agree Bitterblossom math is awful.

    Also I am clearly not good at reading cards, that would have made it a million times simpler to figure out the match vs. GoblinSmashmaster.

  8. #1348
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    For H and Goblinsmashmaster:

    I remade the math and here is my thinking of how our matches should go.
    Please tell me if you agree:

    6. H: OTP: I'll never bock, this is not profitable for me. T1 = Mutavault. Plains Stalwart.
    T2 = Swamp Prowler. Attack for 2 (18), tactician
    T3 = Prowler. Attack for 1 (19) (you discard tactician).
    You choose to pump every turn: Attack for 3 (15)
    T4 = I attack for 8 (11). Attack for 4 (11)
    T5 = I attack for 8 (3). Attack for 4 (7)
    T6 = I kill you
    - Staying in defense with tactitian won't work (i deal 6 unblockable to you each turn) so you can choose to pump tactician a bit to block Mutavault: Attack for 2 (16). tactician = 2/2
    T4 = I attack for 8 (11), you attack for 2 (14)
    T5 = I attack for 6 (5). EOT you pump Stalwart. you attack for 3 (11)
    T6 = I attack for 6 you are dead.
    - If you choose to not discard tactician, you'll end up using one turn to cast him and i'll still have you on the same clock (The chump on mutavault at some point will be the same loss of damage for me than discarding tactician)
    So it looks as if i win this one (I don't see how changing gears at some point in one of those two scenarios will help you winning).
    OTD: T1 = plains, stalwart. Mutavault
    T2 = tactician, attack for 2 (18). Swamp, prowler.
    T3 = Attack for 3 (15). Prowler attack for 3 (17)
    T4 = Attack for 4 (11). Attack for 8 (11)
    T5 = Attack for 5 (6). Attack for 6 (5)
    T6 = Attack for 6, chump with mutavault. attack for 3 (2)
    T7 = attack for 7 chump with prowler. Attack for 3 reduced to 1 (1)
    T8 = I die.
    Choosing to block at any point before doesn't seem productive either.
    so 3-3
    7. GoblinSmashmaster: OTD: T1 = Mutavault, Plains stalwart
    T2 = Swamp prowler. Attack for 2 (18).
    - If you play tactician, and choose to discard harrier at some point, it's the same scenario than for H. I win.
    - If you choose to play harrier, you'll have a 2/2 vs my 2/2 and 1 3/1. i win.
    - If you choose to play tactician and then harrier, you can't use both, and you'll loose one turn to deploy the second one. As both previous lines are a loss for you, I don't see how this is going to be better.
    OTP: I think it's somehow the same math as above. Can't block profitably, and you are one turn ahead. you win.
    Same maths as with H. 3-3

  9. #1349
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    OTD: T1 = plains, stalwart. Mutavault
    T2 = tactician, attack for 2 (18). Swamp, prowler.
    T3 = Attack for 3 (15). Prowler attack for 3 (17)
    T4 = Attack for 4 (11). Attack for 8 (11)
    T5 = Attack for 5 (6). Attack for 6 (5)
    T6 = Attack for 6, chump with mutavault. attack for 3 (2)
    T7 = attack for 7 chump with prowler. Attack for 3 reduced to 1 (1)
    T8 = I die.
    Choosing to block at any point before doesn't seem productive either.
    so 3-3
    I need to think about this more, but 17-8=9, not 11. So, that would seem to imply I'd lose both possibly.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  10. #1350
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I need to think about this more, but 17-8=9, not 11. So, that would seem to imply I'd lose both possibly.
    Yeah. I apparently calculated with the 18 two lines above :)

    If you confirm the win for me then it's probably WW against Goblinsmashmaster too.

  11. #1351

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Props to FTW for their calculations :'D

  12. #1352
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    My votes
    1. B2
    2. B1.
    3. A2
    4. A1

    I'd enjoy touring more blocks. Newer blocks had fewer oppressive cards, more controlled mana acceleration, and power creep in creatures, which could make the format more interesting. The older sets seem more degenerate. I don't think bans are explicitly needed because there should be few dangerous cards left anyway.

  13. #1353
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    The crown for this third season ended up being somewhat anitclimactic when FTW and I managed to send in the exact same deck.
    Also, adding the Shadowmoor block to Lorwyn made no difference at all. It looke dfun on paper, but Lorwyn block just has the better cards.
    Still, a number in noteworthy things happened:
    Wrath of Pie chose best, adding double Bitterblossom to his 4, taking the round in style and dealing a serious blow in the struggle for 3rd place.
    The fight for place 5 was also interesting, where Unlif3 again scored strongly, but H also had a solid round, ending the fight for top 5 in his favor.

    Preliminary standings for the final round of the season

    Rank. Player: score - SP
    1. Wrath of Pie: 33 - 4,7
    2. Asthereal (TO): 25 - 3,6
    2. Unlif3: 25 - 3,6
    2. FTW: 25 - 3,6
    5. H: 20 - 2,9
    6. GoblinSmashmaster: 11 - 1,6
    7. Tylert: 14 - 2,0
    8. apple713: 5 - 0,7

    Which leads to the following final standings:
    1. Asthereal (TO): 45,5
    2. FTW: 40,3
    3. Wrath of Pie: 35,8
    4. GoblinSmashmaster: 33,3
    5. Unlif3: 23,4
    6. H: 23,1
    7. Whoshim: 17,3
    8. Tylert: 17,2
    9. BirdsOfParadise: 6,3
    10. apple713: 3,5


    News on Season 4
    I'm working on setting up season 4. The votes so far are clear: we will continue the Block Tour.
    Right now, the "No bannings" version has a strong lead in the votes, so we'll probably continue what we were doing already.
    For those who have not voted yet, you can still do so, BUT ONLY FOR OR AGAINST USING A BANNED LIST.

    More news to follow shortly.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 10-07-2019 at 08:30 AM.
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  14. #1354
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    More news on Season 4

    As the Block Tour was a success and many of you voted to continue the tour, I've been building something fun.
    I ran out of blocks with one main set and two expansions because the last five blocks were just two sets, and I think that's too small.
    So I've decided to combine those, just like we had in the finale of season 3. There were five of those out, so I chose to drop the last one.
    This left me with three rounds, which I chose to fill with the unofficial Guild of Ravnica block, a Core set block and some awesome Modern Masters.

    The next season wil look as follows:
    Round 1. Alara block (Shards of Alara, Conflux, Alara Reborn)
    Round 2. Zendikar block (Zendikar, Worldwake, Rise of the Eldrazi)
    Round 3. Scars of Mirrodin block (Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, New Phyrexia)
    Round 4. Innistrad block (Innistrad, Dark Ascension, Avacyn Restored)
    Round 5. Return to Ravnica block (Return to Ravnica, Gatecrash, Dragon's Maze)
    Round 6. Modern Core "block" (Magic Origins, Core Set 2019, Core Set 2020)
    Round 7. Theros block (Theros, Born of the Gods, Journey into Nyx)
    Round 8. Khans of Tarkir block (Khans of Tarkir, Fate Reforged, Dragons of Tarkir)
    Round 9. Battle for Zendikar & Shadows over Innistrad block (Battle for Zendikar, Oath of the Gatewatch, Shadows over Innistrad, Eldritch Moon)
    Round 10. Kaladesh & Amonkhet block (Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, Amonkhet, Hour of Devastation)
    Round 11. (unofficial) Guilds of Ravnica block (Guilds of Ravnica, Ravnica Allegiance, War of the Spark)
    Round 12 (finale). Modern Masters (Modern Masters, Modern Masters 2015, Modern Masters 2017)

    This should make for a fun season, I think.

    I'll be updating the first post of the thread, and create my own deck.
    As soon as it's all done, I'll post here again to open the season and start round one.

    NOTE: We'll play without bannings, as that version got the most votes.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 10-05-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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  15. #1355
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Time for a new season! This season we'll go for part two of the Block Tour. So here we go!

    Round 1 of 4CB Season 4, The Block Tour - part 2, has started. For this round we shall play Alara block (Shards of Alara, Conflux, Alara Reborn)!


    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, so you can start sending me your decks.

    DEADLINE: Wednesday the 9nd of October, at 11:00AM Central European Time.
    (That's my time. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night at midnight-ish, so keep that in mind.)

    PLEASE NOTE:
    The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Plains, Island, Aven Squire, Sighted-Caste Sorcerer (so with card tags around each card, and not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S04R01 in the topic. Many of you already did this for previous rounds. Thanks a lot, this really saves me the time and hassle of copying and pasting text and tags!

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deck designing everybody!
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  16. #1356
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    The crown for this third season ended up being somewhat anitclimactic when FTW and I managed to send in the exact same deck.
    Also, adding the Shadowmoor block to Lorwyn made no difference at all. It looke dfun on paper, but Lorwyn block just has the better cards.
    Still, a number in noteworthy things happened:
    Wrath of Pie chose best, adding double Bitterblossom to his 4, taking the round in style and dealing a serious blow in the struggle for 3rd place.
    The fight for place 5 was also interesting, where Unlif3 again scored strongly, but H also had a solid round, ending the fight for top 5 in his favor.

    Preliminary standings for the final round of the season

    Rank. Player: score - SP
    1. Wrath of Pie: 33 - 4,7
    2. Asthereal (TO): 25 - 3,6
    2. Unlif3: 25 - 3,6
    2. FTW: 25 - 3,6
    5. H: 23 - 3,3
    6. GoblinSmashmaster: 14 - 2
    7. Tylert: 8 - 1,1
    8. apple713: 5 - 0,7

    Which leads to the following final standings:
    1. Asthereal (TO): 45,5
    2. FTW: 40,3
    3. Wrath of Pie: 35,8
    4. GoblinSmashmaster: 33,3
    5. H: 23,5
    6. Unlif3: 23,4
    7. Whoshim: 17,3
    8. Tylert: 16,3
    9. BirdsOfParadise: 6,3
    10. apple713: 3,5


    News on Season 4
    I'm working on setting up season 4. The votes so far are clear: we will continue the Block Tour.
    Right now, the "No bannings" version has a strong lead in the votes, so we'll probably continue what we were doing already.
    For those who have not voted yet, you can still do so, BUT ONLY FOR OR AGAINST USING A BANNED LIST.

    More news to follow shortly.
    I've done the math for the match vs H and gob. And apparently i win both (with the help of H). I should be at 14, gob at 11 and H at 20.

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    I've done the math for the match vs H and gob. And apparently i win both (with the help of H). I should be at 14, gob at 11 and H at 20.
    H mentioned he needed to think about this some more and hasn't replied since.
    @H: Is Tylert's calculation correct?
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  18. #1358
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    H mentioned he needed to think about this some more and hasn't replied since.
    @H: Is Tylert's calculation correct?
    Sorry, had a busy weekend. Nothing I saw says it would be otherwise, so he is likely right.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  19. #1359
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Sorry, had a busy weekend. Nothing I saw says it would be otherwise, so he is likely right.
    Cool, thanks. I'll adjust the scores.

    Also, new season has started. Alara block for Wednesday. Don't miss out!
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  20. #1360

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Hey, sorry I missed checking my scores for a round and missed the following round. I have been sick for the last week. However, even without the sickness, I don't know if I can keep up with my new schedule. Have a good one, and I may pop in from time to time for fun!

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