I can't beat you. Grave Titan makes 2 zombies on ETB. I'll kill the Titan, but Quagnoth won't race the tokens so I have to hold back to block.Originally Posted by jhhdk
You can't cast Mindbreak Trap, or really any card to interact with Eater, because of Lavinia, Azorius Renegade. T1 9/8 flying trample stops Chromium from getting in first damage. He can also use Savage Summoning to play T0 10/9 Eater instead, which can both block Chromium and kill in 2 hits.
Thank you very much!
Unfortunately not so much clean sweep, as Serguei, Maxx, Tylert and jhhdk are giving me trouble :)
Or I am wrong and you are right, which is my hope :)
The second one would not have won against many things (a lot of draws if people just wait), and not against mine, it would have done 1-4.
I just play an uncounterable 10/9 flying trample at the first upkeep, both OTP and OTD. It should be 6-0 for me.
The titan trades vs Eater, My 3/3 eats your 2/2 one at a time if you attack, so should be DD.
Overall, I can play at the upkeep either an uncounterable 10/9 flying trample, or a 3/3 that prevents non-creature spells to be cast.
3. dte: City of traitors, Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Eater of Days
1. Asthereal (TO): Mindbreak Trap, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chromium, the Mutable
6-0.
6
2. jhhdk: Bayou, Grave Titan, Sylvan Safekeeper, Leyline of Lifeforce
2-2
8
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Force of Negation, Surrak Dragonclaw
6-0
14
5. Wrath of Pie: Restoration Angel, Red Elemental Blast, Mercadian Bazaar, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
6-0
20
6. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Force of Negation, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sea gate restoration
6-0. Nice take to have force open and eventual tabernacle/tax mana.
26
7. alphastryk: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Veil of Summer, Barren Glory
6-0
32
8. H: Llanowar Reborn, Prowling Serpopard, Mana Leak, Mana Tithe
6-0
38
9. Tylert: Memnite, Mana short, Vendetta, Silence
0-6. Double instant>me
38
10. FTW: Rushwood Grove, Quagnoth, Dovin's Veto, Assassin's Trophy
6-0
44
11. Serguei: Mana Short, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3-3
47
12. silkster: Saprazzan Cove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Petrified Field
6-0
53
13. maxx!: Savage Summoning, Meddling Mage, Tibalt’s Trickery, Diabolic Edict
2-2. Whomever moves first loses. I really wanted to make Tibalt's trickery work in 4CB and thought that it was the ideal round for it, as it could be a non-U counter, but I also wanted it to be a wincon so I came up with that but it wasn't good enough (quick look says 48):
Tibalt's Trickery, Blightsteel Colossus, Lesser masticore, flusterstorm
55.
Well, I guess I was wrong that trophy wouldn't be so degenerate this round. I think you made the final point on trophy!
These are good points. Edited my scores.
Join the 4 Card Blind competition!
One quick question everybody: Was mana short in your shortlist of playable cards for this round?
Yeah Mana Short and Wheel and Deal + Veil/Silence were both T0 decks I didn't want to lose to.
Right, Mana Short or Mage responding to Savage Summoning can stop you, and Grave Titan is surprisingly hard to stop.
If people wait, you charge up the Bazaar. 12 counters is enough to just hardcast Emrakul with Veto up. 7 counters is enough mana for 2 Through the Breaches (redraw both every 2 turns), which leaves a very small window to play threats and win in between before getting Annihilated again. It's a repeatable Emrakul cannon with Veto stopping things like Mana Short and the exile on FoN. But yes, flash-Lavinia stops it.
6. Reep-T1Sphere-cheep: Savage Summoning, Force of Negation, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sea gate restoration
Lets see if t0 sphere with force/anti-tabernacle backup is good enough.
1. Asthereal (TO): Mindbreak Trap, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chromium, the Mutable
Your dude is bigger. LL 0-6
2. jhhdk: Bayou, Grave Titan, Sylvan Safekeeper, Leyline of Lifeforce
You don’t have 7 mana to pay for the t1 sphere. 3/4 races 1/1. WW 6-0
3. dte: City of traitors, Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Eater of Days.
You have an extra mana to pay for eater through my tax LL 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Force of Negation, Surrak Dragonclaw
My dude is smaller than yours. LL 0-6.
5. Wrath of Pie: Restoration Angel, Red Elemental Blast, Mercadian Bazaar, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Can’t beat cheap instant speed removal. LL 0-6
7. alphastryk: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Veil of Summer, Barren Glory
The uninteractive stuff I was trying to beat. You can’t beat t0 sphere. WW 6-0
8. H: Llanowar Reborn, Prowling Serpopard, Mana Leak, Mana Tithe
Trying to fight the counter war loses you the game, but you if you just cast serpopard you win. LL 0-6.
9. Tylert: Memnite, Mana short, Vendetta, Silence
Can’t beat cheap removal. LL 0-6
10. FTW: Rushwood Grove, Quagnoth, Dovin's Veto, Assassin's Trophy
Can’t beat cheap removal. LL 0-6
11. Serguei: Mana Short, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
Manashort does nothing. Sea-gate tech coming in clutch. WW 6-0.
12. silkster: Saprazzan Cove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Petrified Field
Sea-gate tech coming in clutch. WW 6-0
13. maxx!: Savage Summoning, Meddling Mage, Tibalt’s Trickery, Diabolic Edict
If you use savage summoning you lose, but I’m one blue mana short of casting my dude with hard cast fon backup. LL 0-6.
24 points.
It appears the bigger body of lodestone would have been beneficial over flying and being able to hard cast fon vs sorcery speed removal.
How are you shuffling in through the breach if it gets countered?
It only gets countered if Dovin's Veto doesn't stop the counter. Veto counters FoN & Through the Breach resolves.
Bazaar can charge up to 2 counters for turn 4 Through the Breach, keeping 2 mana in the pool for Dovin's Veto. Or you can charge higher to pay taxes. That's still fast enough for most decks running counters. For the fast decks like Barren Glory, Grave Titan and Chromium casting Through the Breach without protection is good enough, so you can just leave 5 in the pool to threaten that on any turn while ticking up Bazaar to 15 counters.
GoblinFlashmaster Results for Round "Flash"
1. Asthereal (TO): Mindbreak Trap, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chromium, the Mutable
Goblin smash!! 3-3
2. jhhdk: Bayou, Grave Titan, Sylvan Safekeeper, Leyline of Lifeforce
Grave Titan :( 0-6
3. dte: City of traitors,Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Eater of Days
Eaten alive 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Force of Negation, Surrak Dragonclaw
That's me playing Goblins
5. Wrath of Pie: Restoration Angel, Red Elemental Blast, Mercadian Bazaar, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Blasted :( 0-6
6. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Force of Negation, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sea gate restoration
Surrak smash! 6-0
7. alphastryk: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Veil of Summer, Barren Glory
No glory 0-6
8. H: Llanowar Reborn, Prowling Serpopard, Mana Leak, Mana Tithe
Surrrak smash! 6-0
9. Tylert: Memnite, Mana short, Vendetta, Silence
Goblin smash! 6-0
10. FTW: Rushwood Grove, Quagnoth, Dovin's Veto, Assassin's Trophy
Assassinated :( 0-6
11. Serguei: Mana Short, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tabernacle 0-6
12. silkster: Saprazzan Cove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Petrified Field
Tabernacle 0-6
13. maxx!: Savage Summoning, Meddling Mage, Tibalt’s Trickery, Diabolic Edict
Surrak smash! 6-0
Total: 27 points
maxx!: Savage Summoning, Meddling Mage, Tibalt’s Trickery, Diabolic Edict
1. Asthereal (TO): Mindbreak Trap, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chromium, the Mutable
Diabolic Edict kills Chromium, and I can slowly beat with Mage. 6-0
2. jhhdk: Bayou, Grave Titan, Sylvan Safekeeper, Leyline of Lifeforce
I can flash in Meddling Mage in the first upkeep of the game and name Grave Titan. Edict kills Sylvan Safekeeper too. 6-0
3. dte: City of traitors, Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Eater of Days
If either of us tries Savage Summoning, the opponent can respond with the same and stick their creature first (Lavinia or Mage naming Lavinia). Trying to slow play a creature doesn't help either. Staring is optimal. 2-2
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Force of Negation, Surrak Dragonclaw
I was afraid of Chancellor + Surrak. I can't beat this. Chancellor means Surrak dodges Edict, and there's no way for me to stick my Meddling Mage before you cast Surrak. 0-6
5. Wrath of Pie: Restoration Angel, Red Elemental Blast, Mercadian Bazaar, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
REB is good here. I can play my Mage and name Chandra, but I can't counter both REB and Resto, so either you get me with the Angel or the planeswalker. 0-6
6. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Force of Negation, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sea gate restoration
This is tricky. If you Savage Summon GAAIV, I can just play a 3 mana Edict on your turn while FoN is unavailable, then cast Mage and win. If you wait, I play a main phase Mage anyway, and then you have to act or get locked out of your only threat, so you flash in GAAIV. Then I Edict on your turn anyway. 6-0
7. alphastryk: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Veil of Summer, Barren Glory
I can flash in Meddling Mage on the first upkeep and name Barren Glory (or Lotus Petal). 6-0
8. H: Llanowar Reborn, Prowling Serpopard, Mana Leak, Mana Tithe
Upkeep flash an uncounterable Meddling Mage naming Serpopard. 6-0
9. Tylert: Memnite, Mana short, Vendetta, Silence
I want to try to main phase Meddling Mage, but you can't let me. You either need to Silence or Mana Short me before I get priority in my main phase, but then I can counter whichever you play with Tibalt's Trickery and stay on my plan to main phase Mage. If you try to use the other card (whichever one I didn't counter), then my window is open to flash in the Mage. Mage resolves and names Vendetta. 6-0
10. FTW: Rushwood Grove, Quagnoth, Dovin's Veto, Assassin's Trophy
Mage sticks, but if I name Assassin's Trophy, Quagnoth gets there. If I name Quagnoth, we can fight over Trophy, but Veto gets the final word. I could try Edict instead, but Veto counters that too. I can't play both Trickery and Edict, so you take this one. 0-6
The game begins on your upkeep (OTP I just pass). I flash in Mage and name Dovin's Veto. You play your land. You need to attempt to Trophy my Mage before you resolve Quagnoth (forcing me to counter), or else I'll still have BR in the pool and be able to Edict you. I don't think it matters when you Trophy, as long as you do it before resolving Quagnoth, so let's just say you do it now and I counter. You've got WUR in the pool and need to tap Grove 4 times (3 counters + remove). I can attack you for 3 before each tap, so that puts you at 8 when Quagnoth resolves. You can't race from this spot, and I can't attack into your big guy. 2-2
11. Serguei: Mana Short, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
I absolutely cannot beat Tabernacle so I have to play for a draw. I can counter Mana Short with Trickery, and then sit on Edict until you activate either of your manlands. Even if you save all your WUBRG to use as extra Factory activations, you can't hit me enough times to kill me without having both of your mana-producing lands. 2-2
12. silkster: Saprazzan Cove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Petrified Field
More Tabernacle. Ulamog is slooooooow but I can't get rid of him permanently. Edict works once, but he shuffles up and comes back after a dozen or so turns of storing mana. 0-6
13. maxx!: Savage Summoning, Meddling Mage, Tibalt’s Trickery, Diabolic Edict
This is me :]
6+6+2+0+0+6+6+6+6+2+2+0 = 42
Tibalt's Trickery is just a counterspell for 1R. My U is tied up in Mage, and blue counterspells get hit by REB, etc. I don't think the rest of the text is ever relevant in this round.
Yes. I eventually realized that being able to do things on the first upkeep was unusually strong (since normally nobody has mana), so fighting over resources at instant speed seemed good. Mana Short, Quagnoth, Wheel and Deal, Surrak Dragonclaw, and every non-U counterspell (Red Elemental Blast, Tibalt's Trickery, Mana Tithe, etc.) were all on my radar. I completely missed Tabernacle somehow.
Last edited by maxx!; 03-03-2021 at 04:15 PM.
True, storage land + emrakul = waiting is not an option. Nice deck then!
Yes, but I thought everybody would play instant speed to answer Mana short and Wheel and Deal. I thought both would be coupled with pyroblast/tibalt's trickery to resolve. I expected much more of those.
I also expected tabernacle but did not think so many people would play around it!
Vs FTW, you both agree but I think it should be DD: T1 of FTW, grove and 3/3 mage naming veto.
Maxx attack, FTW 17
T2, grove 1 counter
Maxx attack, FTW 14
T3, FTW cannot cast Watnot, otherwise it takes edict --> 2nd counter
Maxx attack, FTW 11
T4, FTW cannot cast Watnot, otherwise it takes edict --> 3rd counter
---> draw. FTW cannot cast Quagnoth fast enough. If he uses trophy on mage (->Tibalt's T), he has to wait two turns. In all cases you end up staring.
You can also use it as an enabler ;)
That's the decks I posted about above with lesser masticore, flusterstorm and colossus.
You're right. I didn't consider that FTW would have to save up 2 extra mana to protect Quagnoth. I can get in 4 attacks before FTW has 8 usable mana, and naming Veto lets me protect my Mage from Trophy with Trickery. 2-2 looks right. Updating.
Ah, I meant in my deck, but I actually missed that interaction when you first posted this list. Clever!
Did anybody else consider Through the Breach, Blightsteel Colossus, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation or was I the only one? Looks like it would've been 36 for me, so I'm glad I didn't, but it was a thought.
Good point.
If you name Veto, I can protect Quagnoth from Edict by responding with Trophy on Mage (getting back Veto) and then countering Edict (while you're out of mana for Tibalt), which would leave me with Quagnoth vs an empty board FTW. But that means casting Quagnoth on turn 7. I didn't consider that if I wait that long you could just not cast Edict. By then I'm too low in life to attack back so we stare.
DD
That's a good one. The two Through the Breach ideas I had were with Emrakul+storage land or with Worldspine Wurm. Wurm because if necessary you can play it on the first upkeep in response to Mana Short/Wheel and Deal/flash creatures and still get 3 5/5s. But it lacked ways to protect that line, so I didn't give it much thought.
I missed Blightsteel. That's a dangerous T1 kill, but it's also hard to win OTD because you can't use Pacts when they go first.
Edit:
Can you win this using stack tricks with Edict?
maxx: Diabolic Edict. Hold priority.
maxx: Savage Summoning
Now if dte tries to Summon in response to your Summoning or Mage, you just let the stack resolve and Edict will kill his creature, so Mage is getting through.
This is galaxy brain stuff. I think you're onto something, but I don't see a line that leads to a win (yet). Mage will stick for sure, but if dte doesn't respond and just lets the Edict do nothing, I think I have to name Eater of Days. Afterward, dte can Savage Summoning -> Lavinia, and now we both have 3/3s. If we trade, dte gets Eater back and wins, so I can't attack and I can't block. dte would get the first attack and race me.
Yeah, nevermind, this just leads to a draw. If you do it on his End Step, you'll get 3/3 Mage naming Eater and you'll get the first attack, but 3/3 Lavinia will stall you. If you try to sequence Edict somewhere higher in the stack, dte can Savage Summon in Eater after Edict resolves but before Mage does, so that just loses. It's a cute trick but I can't see a way to convert it into a win, because you need 2 things to answer his 2 things, so you can't afford to burn Edict on nothing.
I did consider a few variations around this, with different protection packages (SSG + REB/flusterstorm/veil, FoN + pacte,.... They were all bad for what I expected). The trouble is that you have to deal with counterspells, including flusterstorm, removal like PtE, and any dude with toughness 2+. That starts to be a lot...
Boseiju, Who Shelters All is definitely important tech for Breach strategies, because it leaves you with an extra mana to play something to get around the blocker issue, and solves the counterspell issue. (Exiling removal is an issue, but pure creature removal has issues in rounds like this, so I would be fine losing to it.)
Probably still not that great because blocker + counterspell still causes issues, though, because then the extra spell eats the counter.
12. silkster: Saprazzan Cove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Petrified Field
1. Asthereal (TO): Mindbreak Trap, Elvish Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide, Chromium, the Mutable
Chromium was the last deck I was on before submitting, but I couldn't decide between City of Traitors and double spirit guide. WW, 6 points
2. jhhdk: Bayou, Grave Titan, Sylvan Safekeeper, Leyline of Lifeforce
Well, this was going to go wide around my alternative choice of Maze of Ith too. LL, 0 points
3. dte: City of traitors, Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Eater of Days
For most of the week, my default was Savage Summoning + Meddling Mage. I didn't remember and couldn't find Lavinia. Nice find. LL, 0 points
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Force of Negation, Surrak Dragonclaw
I briefly considered Surrak, but mostly felt that Chromium seemed better. That was just a guess though, and I'm curious to see how Surrak does.
WW, 6 points
5. Wrath of Pie: Restoration Angel, Red Elemental Blast, Mercadian Bazaar, Chandra, Awakened Inferno
You can Chandra on turn 3 which effectively does 1 damage on the spot, then you kill me on your 8th turn. I can cast Ulamog on turn 7 to kill on turn 9. Darn.LL, 0 points
Wrath has me winning here, but I'm guessing he tried to win with Restoration Angel.
On further thought, this looks WL (see post below). 3 points
6. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Force of Negation, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Sea gate restoration
Sea Gate Restoration is nice Tech, but I can just go over the top. WW, 6 points.
Damn! The one mana tax actually buys you the very last turn that you need. That's so frustrating. On my play, I can slow you down by a turn, but it costs me a turn to do that, so no help.
7. alphastryk: Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Veil of Summer, Barren Glory
I actually didn't think of Barren Glory for this round, but I would not have had the guts to go for it anyway. I thought people would be on double counterspell for sure. LL, 0 points
8. H: Llanowar Reborn, Prowling Serpopard, Mana Leak, Mana Tithe
All these slow decks that I could have chewed through with Chromium! Argh! LL, 0 points
9. Tylert: Memnite, Mana short, Vendetta, Silence
WW, 6 points
10. FTW: Rushwood Grove, Quagnoth, Dovin's Veto, Assassin's Trophy
Finally, the Assissin's Trophy that I absolutely should not have been playing around.
To win without casting Trophy, you need 5 attacks, which means you need 11 mana, which means you need to charge the grove 6 times. Using Trophy on Tabernacle doesn't save mana, but using it on Cove buys you a lot of time. You now need 13 mana, so 8 charges. You Trophy before I untap with 5 counters, so my turns are: tapped, 1 counter, 2, 3, 4, tapped, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Ulamog, which is turn 13. Your turns are: tapped, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, Quagnoth, attack 1, attack 2, attack 3, attack 4, attack 5, which is 15 in total, which means that I have time to kill your land.I won't even be able to block since it will die to my own Tabernacle on my turn, but I can rebuy it later.Err, Ulamog is indestructible.WW, 6 pointsNope.
11. Serguei: Mana Short, Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Mana Short means that can't do anything until turn 13, which is too late. LL, 0 points
13. maxx!: Savage Summoning, Meddling Mage, Tibalt’s Trickery, Diabolic Edict
I thought more people would play Tibalt's Trickery and another counter, which is why I zagged. Actually, Summoning + Meddling + Tibalt's was my first deck, but I never found a card I liked for the last spot. I really wanted to be able to use all my cards. WW, 6 points
27 points by my count, after three corrections.
It turns out that Assassin's Trophy was not the deal that I thought it was going to be. I guess I should have played Dust Bowl instead of the Petrified Field, which would have gained me 2 points against FTW, and would have won me games against jhh, dte, Wrath, Reep, H, and Serguei, for a net +35. Ooops! Would have been 20W, 2D, 2L.
And no one went for Wheel and Deal or anything similar, so being ready for that didn't help.
I thought most decks would either be instant-speed only (like Chromium, Surrak, or Savage Summoning) or have two counterspells like Tibalt's Tricker and Veil of Summer. Mana Short seemed like it's strong in the abstract, but I didn't think it would play well. That said, I didn't choose so great myself, so take my thoughts as mediocre.
I didn't think of that. I think I would have passed on it because it doesn't do well on the draw against any kind of prison. But it might have made me rethink my deck choice. It certainly makes Tabernacle look bad. I noticed that Serra Avatar has the possibility to turn 1 kill, but I never seriously thought about it.
Last edited by silkster; 03-06-2021 at 04:27 AM.
Indeed I did. Does Ulamog destroying Chandra make a difference?
Actually, I think it does. In my original calculation, I'm 2 turns off, and I know that the last emblem doesn't matter since 1+2+3+4+5+5 is enough, but I'm now seeing:
Silkster on the play:
Tapped land; tapped land.
1; 1
2; Chandra - em1
3; em2
4; em3
5; em4
cast, kill chandra; em4
attack; em 4
attack.
And 1+2+3+4+4+4 is only 18. So I'm just in time on the play. Looks like we both thought we were LL but we're actually WL. :)
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