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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #121
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Isn't Mental misstep banned in legacy? :)
    LOOOL that's a very fair point.
    How did we manage to miss that?

    Anyway, legal now and banned next round?
    I think that might be the best solution.

    Or we could rethink the entire banned list.
    The thing is: half the cards on there aren't dangerous for 4CB anyway.
    Fast mana is dangerous, but for instance card draw is mostly irrelevant.

  2. #122

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Isn't Mental misstep banned in legacy? :)
    This.

    I didn't consider playing it or playing around it because the rules clearly said Legacy B/R. Mishra's Workshop and Sol Ring could also lead to powerful decks, but they're not Legacy legal either. Mental Misstep is quite powerful in this format. Some of the cards could safely be unbanned, but shouldn't that be mentioned beforehand?

  3. #123
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I built my list to be legacy legal expect for the specific cards, had I known Vintage cards were legal I might have chosen differently then.
    Oh well, guess I'll get a support ticket to have my entry fee returned /s

    PirateKing

    1. Asthereal (TO): Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (6)
    ---
    3. Matsu: Both Racks get countered, but a 5/5 is fine too 6-0 (12)
    4. CptHaddock: A Rack and Lupine Prototype gets countered, but the other Rack gets there before the Griffin be relevant 6-0 (18)
    5. Taconaut: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you before Confiscate turns live 6-0 (24)
    6. Mr. Safety: Ensnaring Bridge makes Lupine Protopype sad, but Racks beat Tongs because broken 6-0 (30)
    7. Clx33: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (36)
    8. Fallen_Empire: I explode 0-6 (36)
    9. tescrin: I play Lupine first OTP and win, Sphere locks me OTD, but slow playing Racks wins the race 6-0 (42)
    10. PapriNgomo: Scythe Leopard is a 4/4 at most, Lupine Prototype does just fine 6-0 (48)
    11. ronco: Getting out both Racks sidesteps Nether Spirits eternal blocks, wins the race 6-0 (54)
    12. JackaBo: Thought-Knot Seer dies unless it takes Lupine Prototype, either way Racks race well 6-0 (60)
    13. H: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (66)
    14. mistercakes: We trade 5 and 6 damage, you die in your upkeep seconds before I'm to die 6-0 (72)
    15. Dan Pyre: Phyrexian Crusader is a 5 turn clock without blocks, Racks kill you in 4 6-0 (78)
    16. kombatkiwi: Eternal blocks in spades, but Racks haven't been banned yet so... 6-0 (86)
    17. Tylert: I explode without a permanent to my name 0-6 (86)
    18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of Sanctity doesn't stop The Rack (had to check) 6-0 (92)
    19. spartan117: Two Racks win 6-0 (98)
    20. beardstorm: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (104)
    21. phonics: Something gets Blackmailed, but what's left races faster 6-0 (110)
    22. Sloshthedark: I play Lupine first OTP and win, Sphere locks me OTD, but slow playing Racks wins the race 6-0 (116)
    23. JosefK: Cabal Therapy with perfect info takes both Racks, but Lupine Prototype wins in 4, solo Rack wins in 7 6-0 (124)
    24. spirit of the wretch: I get to keep a single Rack which is enough 6-0 (130)
    25. apple713: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (136)
    26. Darklingske: Even not paying for Lupine Prototype doesn't change the math 6-0 (142)
    27. FTW: Cabal Therapy with perfect info takes both Racks, but Lupine Prototype wins in 4 before Student can do anything but chump 6-0 (148)
    28. Kap'n Cook: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (154)

    154 points
    Ban my deck
    Last edited by PirateKing; Today at 11:53 AM.
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  4. #124
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    25) apple713: You can wait for me to cast eureka to mana tithe it both games. 0-2: 0 --> 40
    Question for Asthereal

    In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?
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  5. #125
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    My list above. He's what I came to:
    1.) Asthereal: I can Force in Dryads and race Boggle both on the play and the draw. 6-0 (6)
    2.) PirateKing: I don't think I can win here. I have to counter the Prototype if I want to be able to win and then even holding Force of Will, both Racks will win the race, play and draw doesn't seem to matter. 0-6 (6)
    3.) Matsu: Pretty sure I can't beat Missteps or Factory, play/draw doesn't matter. 0-6 (6)
    4.) CptHaddock: Can't beat both Misstep and Force. 0-6 (6)
    5.) Taconaut: Eventually lose to Griffin plus Confiscate. 0-6 (6)
    6.) Mr. Safety: Force the Bridge, race the Tongs with Dryad, I don't think play/draw matters. 6-0 (12)
    7.) Clx33: Propaganda will eventually lock me out and I lose to Griffin. 0-6 (12)
    8.) Fallen_Empire: Force the Torper Orb, don't he can do anything meaningful after. 6-0 (18)
    9.) tescrin: I don't think I can beat double Factory. 0-6 (18)
    10.) PapriNgomo: Force Leopard, win with Dryads. 6-0 (24)
    11.) ronco: Force of Will the Smallpox, win with Dryad. 6-0 (30)
    12.) JackaBo: Force The Seer, win with Dryad. 6-0 (36)
    13.) BYE: Myself.
    14.) mistercakes: Force the Culling, win with Dryad. 6-0 (42)
    15.) Dan Pyre: Force Crusader, win with Dryad. 6-0 (48)
    16.) kombatkiwi: This one is actually rather complicated, probably need help getting this right. On the play, I play Trop into Dryad. He plays Bog tapped. I attack, putting him to 17. He untaps, if he plays Smallpox, I Spike it. If he plays Bitterblossom, I have to let it resolve. So, in the case of Smallpox first, it gets Spiked, and on my turn I attack him to 14. On his next turn, he cast Bitterblossom and I can't do anything. On my turn, I attack him to 11. His turn, make one Fairie, go to 10. My turn, I attack, he can't block or he gets no where, so he goes down to 8. His turn, he is at 7 and two has two fearies, so he can attack with one, putting me at 19. My turn, he can't profitably block, so he goes to 5. I think this ends up that once he has 3 Fearies to block with, he can't both block and attack back fast enough to win before he loses to his own Bitterblossom.

    If he plays Bitterblossom first, my first attack still has him at 17. His next turn, I have to Spike his Smallpox and he is at 16 with one Fairie. My second attack puts him to 13. He then drops to 12, has two Faeries. He can't block profitably, so one attacks, putting me to 19. My third attack puts him to 9. His turn, he goes to 8, has three faeries. At this point, he can either block with all 3 tokens, or race. He can't race with taking 3 more a turn, so blocking with all 3 should let him win.

    On the draw, I think it ends up the same, Turn 5, he would be at 9 with 3 tokens and I am at 19. Which is better than when he was on the draw, so the result should be the same. 0-6 (48)
    17.) Tylert: Force the Eureka, win with Dryad. 6-0 (54)
    18.) Ace/Homebrew: Force the Myth, win with Dryad. 6-0 (60)
    19.) spartan117: Force the Vineyard, no way for him to activate the Village, win with Dryad. 6-0 (66)
    20.) beardstorm: On the play, Dryad just directly races and win. On the Draw, Force the Spike to get Dryad and race to win. 6-0 (72)
    21.) phonics: This one is a little complex too. I don't think I can win, because I can't beat Mishra's Factory. So, I can't stop the Rack through the Blackmail, so I lose in any case. 0-6 (72)
    22.) Sloshthedark: I can't race the manlands. 0-6 (72)
    23.) JosefK: On the play, I should win, because we have identical clocks, but mine comes out sooner. On the draw, he can snag my land or creature before I play it, so I have to Force. I think this means I am still a turn faster with my threat. 6-0 (78)
    24.) spirit of the wretch: We can both stop each other's threat, so will just be a draw in every case. 2-2 (80)
    25.) apple713: I believe this is a draw, because I can Force the Mana Tithe, but he can't attack with Factory past Dyrad and I can't attack past Factory myself. 2-2 (82)
    26.) Darklingske: This is another complicated math one. I think I can Force the second Punishing Fire that will need to kill my Dryad, which will give me enough time to win before he can do it again (Hold needs to be tapped for 4 turns, so it's a 5 turn cycle). 6-0 (86)
    27.) FTW: I don't think I can win on the play or the draw here, because I can't Force Student. 0-6 (86)
    28.) Kap'n Cook: I can't beat Rampager and I can't force a draw because of Familiar. 0-6 (86)

    I'm stupid and realized my list was bad the moment I sent it. Force Spike is useless and should be an unblockable threat. Oh well, it would have only done slightly better. 86 doesn't seem terrible though.

    I actually think Force is OK, but Griffin is kind of stupid and OP, but likely The Rack should be banned too and Blackmail seems absurd because it can take lands.

    Keep in mind, I wrote all this pre-coffee so that plus general stupidity likely accounts for any errors above.
    Last edited by H; Today at 12:28 PM.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  6. #126
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Question for Asthereal

    In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?
    Playing optimally, I'd think so.
    Playing anything for either player results in a loss, so it's best case draw for both players.
    Guess WOPR was right all along
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #127
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Playing optimally, I'd think so.
    Playing anything for either player results in a loss, so it's best case draw for both players.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Guess WOPR was right all along
    Not sure what this means.
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  8. #128
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Not sure what this means.
    the only winning move is not to play
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  9. #129
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Ah, ok.

    On a side note, I actually think Force of Will is "good for the format" and is only really absurd in the case where you have Griffin. Even so, those decks are painfully slow, so maybe they are OK.
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  10. #130

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Thanks to Asthereal who organized this awesome tornament!
    My super lame deck gave 80 Points IICC

    Player: Deck OTP OTD Points
    1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island L L 0
    2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype L L 0
    3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep W W 6
    4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep L L 0
    5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate L L 0
    6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs W D 4
    7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda L L 0
    8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought W L 3
    9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory W W 6
    10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear W W 6
    11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal W L 3
    12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer
    13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads L L 0
    14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator W L 3
    15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader W W 6
    16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox W W 6
    17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn W W 6
    18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized L L 0
    19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin W W 6
    20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim W L 3
    21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack W L 3
    22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance W L 3
    23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack W L 3
    24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker D L 1
    25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void W L 3
    26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, [cards]Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold W W 6
    27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare W L 3
    28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager L L 0
    Results 80


    Thoughts:
    The deck wins on the play alot thanks to the built in Thoughtseize. I can not beat fow at all.
    Please let me know if you want me to explain any of the results.
    The rack and lupine prototype where cool tech!

    Bans:
    FOW is very strong, especially with Misthollow Griffin - One of them maybe need the axe?
    Therapy and Blackmail should be banned if Thoughtseize is.

  11. #131
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    1. Asthereal (TO): If you attack with your Factory, I get to Claim it and Bogle wins. So you don't attack, keeping Mana Tithe for defense. If I try to Claim your Factory and protect my Claim with FoW, I have to pitch Bogle, leaving me without a wincon. So I also don't do anything. That's two draws. 2-2 (2)
    2. PirateKing: You have extra mana to cast through tithe and win 0-6 (2)
    3. Matsu: Neither of us cast spells and you race me losing 1 factory but the other wins. 0-6 (2)
    4. CptHaddock: No one casts spells. Misthollow is faster than Mishra 0-6 (2)
    5. Taconaut: Same as above 0-6 (2)
    6. Mr. Safety: OTP you cast tongs before I can counter and I can never attack for fear of bride. OTD I hold out to counter your tongs. If you use spirit guide to pay for tithe I win, so you cast nothing. If I tap out to attack you land tongs then bridge. 1-3 (3)
    7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda Lose race to misthollow 0-6 (3)
    8. Fallen_Empire: OTP you cast torper and win. OTD we stalemate because I counter your torper if you try to play it and I canít tap out to attack. 1-3 (4)
    9. tescrin: 2 Mishraís are better than 1 0-6 (4)
    10. PapriNgomo: Eventually you race and win. 0-6 (4)
    11. ronco: Leyline of the Void too strong. Stalemate because I cant tap out to attack for fear of stalemateÖ 2-2 (6)
    12. JackaBo: OTP you win but OTD itís a draw bcause I canít tap out. 1-3 (7)
    13. H: No spells cast. Mishras blocks old growth and we draw both games. 2-2 (9)
    14. mistercakes: OTP you win but OTD itís a stalemate because I canít tap out. 1-3 (10)
    15. Dan Pyre: Stalemate both games because I can block your attack but canít race. Manatithe irrelevant. 2-2 (12)
    16. kombatkiwi: Stalemate, OTP you never cast bitterblossom for fear of counter and I can never attack. Leyline prevents smallpox from being cast. Smallpox thows game into draw. 2-2 (14)
    17. Tylert: Stalemate because neither of us can tap out for fear of losing. 2-2 (16) He needs to fix his matchup
    18. Ace/Homebrew: Myth bigger than Mishras 0-6 (16)
    19. spartan117: Stalemate, you can never cast Eladamri's Vineyard, but I can never attack. 2-2 (18)
    20. beardstorm: This is like an improved version of mine. OTP you cast zealous guarding before I can counter it. I can never block for fear of island. OTD itís a stalemate because I never tap out to prevent zealous. If you try to seas curse something Iíll counter that and I can race zealous. 1-3 (19)
    21. phonics: blackmail hax 0-6 (19)
    22. Sloshthedark: You win the race because you can block with blinkmoth 0-6 (19)
    23. JosefK: blackmail hax 0-6 (19)
    24. spirit of the wretch: You can pay for hangerback 0-6 (19)
    25. apple713:
    26. Darklingske: Stalemate, 1 pfire prevents attacks but 1 pfire canít win the game either. Leyline strong. 2-2 (21)
    27. FTW: cabal takes tithe and student is bigger than Mishra 0-6 (21)
    28. Kap'n Cook: Greenbelt bigger than mishras 0-6 (21)

    Lessons learned
    Donít submit a list at like 3am on no sleep
    Mishras failed me. Zealous guardian is so much better in my deck.
    Almost no one played removalÖ Everyone with the counterspells and discard.


    Recommended bans

    These are just thoughts. Iíd like to see how the games shake out though before deciding.

    Blackmail (oppressive because it pulls lands, even basics)
    Cabal therapy (has to go if thoughtseize is gone)
    Lion's Eye Diamond (I thought this was good too but no one played this but I was prepared with leyline. Maybe we see how this plays out in future metas?)
    Eureka (4 mana spells are typically all in in this format but chancellor is the problem with it. Alone chancellor is generally garbage so Eureka has to go. If it gets countered itís beat by anything though.)
    Misthollow Griffin or Force of Will (Force seems fine alone because itís a 241 but Misthollow seems like the big offender cause itís the enabler. However, I see problems down the road with the Mercadian counter lands that add counters. They are slow but will typically allow force of will to be too strong because they dont lose a resource to play an additional land)
    The Rack (maybe too powerful because discard is a strong enabler and no one can fill their hand. Maybe people just need to pack removal? Almost no one played removal of any kind)
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  12. #132
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Question for Asthereal

    In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?
    Yes, you are right. i won't play eureka, you won't tap out so it's a stalemate. 2-2.
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  13. #133
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    20. beardstorm: This is like an improved version of mine. OTP you cast zealous guarding before I can counter it. I can never block for fear of island. OTD itís a stalemate because I never tap out to prevent zealous. If you try to seas curse something Iíll counter that and I can race zealous.
    These should both be draws. OTP the only safe time to cast Sea's Claim is after blocks, so you'll have an island in MP2 but he won't have a creature. No other threats remain.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  14. #134
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Super fun contest! I realize now that The Rack is a better win condition than Scalding Tongs (in racing situations.)

    Looks like I ended up with 66 points (round 27 is up in the air.) I'm sure corrections are on their way...

    1- OTP - Force Bridge, Bogle races Tongs LOSS, OTD Bogle first, Force Bridge, races Tongs, LOSS (0)
    2- OTP Ė Racks win race easily, LOSS, OTD same, LOSS (0)
    3-OTP Ė Bridge t1, tongs t2, WIN (3), OTD Bridge t1, Port active prevents Tongs, DRAW (1) {4 total}
    4-OTP-Force Bridge, Misthollow wins race, LOSS. OTD-same, LOSS (0)
    5-OTP-Force Bridge, Misthollow beats, LOSS. OTD-same, LOSS (0)
    6-OTP-BYE (lol)
    7-OTP-another Force/Griffin matchup? Ugh, LOSS, OTD same, LOSS (0)
    8-OTP- big WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
    9-OTP- Bridge meets Sphere, Tongs uncastable, DRAW (1), OTD sphere stops all, LOSS (0) {1 Total}
    10-OTP-Bridge WIN (3), OTD same, WIN (3) {6 total}
    11-OTP-Bridge forces draw, DRAW (1), OTD-smallpox forces draw (discard tongs), if he waits a turn I still land Bridge and he poxes, forcing DRAW (1) {2 total}
    12-OTP-Bridge forces DRAW (1), OTD Thought-Knot takes Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 total}
    13-OTP-Force pitch Spike on Bridge, 3/3 beats LOSS (0), OTD- same LOSS (0)
    14-OTP-Bridge wins easily, WIN (3), OTD Ė same WIN (3) {6 total}
    15-OTP-Another favorable matchup, WIN (3), OTD Ė same WIN (3) {6 total}
    16-OTP-Bog is too slow of a mana source, WIN (3), OTD-bog allows Smallpox but bridge stops beats DRAW (1) {4 total}
    17-OTP-doesnít matt if itís 100/100, Bridge WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
    18-OTP-Bridge t1, even 1/1 Myth loses race WIN (3), OTD-Myth even at 1 can't attack, WIN (3) {6 total}
    19-OTP-Bridge WIN (3), OTD same WIN (3) {6 total}
    20-OTP-Spikes Tongs, DRAW (1), OTD Spikes Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 Total}
    21-OTP-Rack drain, LOSS (0), OTD-Blackmail takes Bridge, Rack & Factory make quick work LOSS (I'm giving my opponent the benefit of the doubt, even I hide Bridge they'll know to take the Guide) (0)
    22-OTP-Bridge and Sphere force DRAW (1), OTD-Sphere wins LOSS (0) {1 total}
    23-OTP-Blackmail takes Tongs LOSS (0), OTD-Blackmail takes a crucial piece, LOSS (0)
    24-OTP-cool combo LOSS (0), OTD-same (LOSS)
    25-OTP-Bridge forces DRAW (1), OTD-Tithe beats Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 total}
    26-OTP-PFire combo too slow with available mana, Tongs WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
    27-OTP-Bridge gets there, I donít think heíd know to name tongs WIN (3), OTD Ė if he goes first in the round I can still force a draw (unlikely he names Bridge in the blind) if he is second OTP he knows Bridge, names it and wins easily. OTD-UNKOWN
    28-OTP-Bridge gets Force-d, Rampager beats LOSS (0), OTD-same but faster LOSS (0)
    Total Points = 66 (Cabal Therapy is a coin flip I think in round 27)
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  15. #135
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Matthew Broderick FTW.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

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