In official tournaments it would have been a basic land of their choice but I aggreeOriginally Posted by dte
I’m fine with that.
Oh crap, I missed that as well. Hmm... It's not really in line with what we did before, but this time it's multiple entries we'd lose otherwise. Can most of us live with this change?
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8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
I sent a 2nd message changing from Iona to Archon at the last minute, expecting Iona to be hated out. Let's see if that was wise.
1. Asthereal (TO): Turn 1 Archon on Planeswalker should do it. WW 6-0
2. jhhdk: OTP Turn 1 Archon on Enchantment stops you. OTD Iona on Green would have been better. You play 2x Exploration and Xantid first. I play Archon but can't stop the Swarm. Racing math below. WL 3-3
3. Wrath of Pie: I have to name Instant. As early as turn 2 you loop Elixir to negate my damage, then eventually you have enough mana to start making tokens. Iona would have raced. LL 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP Turn 1 Archon on Enchantment shuts off Exploration and races 2/3 Lynx. OTD your 6/7 Lynx races my 5/6 Archon. Iona would have been better. WL 3-3
5. dte: OTP Turn 1 Archon on Enchantment takes away your interaction. OTD you ritual out Stylus + Fiend before I get Veil up. WL 3-3
6. Reeplcheep: OTP Turn 1 Archon on Enchantment slows you down. OTD you play Turn 1 Exploration + Mountain, I play Archon naming Planeswalker instead of Iona on Green, so you still get turn 2 Azusa + Valakut + 2 mountains. Archon gets some damage in before dying to 4 Mountains per turn. WL 3-3
7. H: OTP Turn 1 Archon shuts off your deck. Edit: OTD you make 5 zombies because I forgot to count the land. That's enough to beat through vigilant Archon WL 3-3
9. alphastryk: Assuming this is Force of Negation, I wait a turn to cast Veil first and go off turn 2 with Archon naming Instant, then ignore Dack and Land Equilibrium. WW 6-0
10. maxx!: Assuming this is Force of Negation, I go off turn 2 with Veil and have Archon name Enchantment. That stops your combo, then vigilant Archon races you. WW 6-0
11. silkster: I can beat either mass discard (4 Plains + Unburial) or Leyline (turn 6 Archon), but not both. LL 0-6
12. Tylert: Another match where Iona would have been better. I can't name both Instant and Planeswalker, but they're both black. LL 0-6
13. Serguei: I go off turn 2 with Veil protection and Archon names Instant. WW 6-0
39 points (13 wins, 11 loss)
With Iona instead: 60 points (WW against everyone except dte, silk and H)
FTW vs jhhdk OTD
J: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid
F: Archon naming irrelevant card type
J: Scute Swarm. 3 Forests -> 2 insects + 2nd Swarm.
F: Attack for 5 vigilance
J: 3 Forests -> +2 Swarms, +4 Swarms, +8 Swarms = 14 new Swarms (16 total + 2 insects). Attacks into 5/6 not wise yet.
F: Attack for 5 vigilance
J: 3 Forests -> +16, +32, +64 = infinite new Swarms (actually 112 new ones, plus 16 from last turn). Attack with 16 Swarms + 2 insects. 1 swarm dies, 17 damage goes through
F: Attack for 5 vigilance
J: Attack with infinity Swarms = lethal
Last edited by FTW; 02-10-2021 at 11:52 AM.
I just treated them as FoN. In many cases the result is the same, but not being able to counter creature-based engines is relevant.
Exile vs just counter can also be relevant I think.
True. And not being able to protect your own spell, without having to wait 3 turns to play out 3 extra Islands.
Still, I'm fine with them being FoNs. We've done replacements before when they were very close to equivalent in function and/or name.
Asthereal's scores for round no time to think or analyse:
1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
That's me. It was either this or no entry. So let's see if I can score more than zero points.
2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
You go T1 Forest > Exploration > Forest > Xantid. From there I can't counter Scute and you have multiples well before my walkers can land. Cool deck, making great use of the lands. 0-6
3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
T1 you cast Elixir. From here, whatever I do to stop your stuff, you can make me do twice. I'm guessing I won't survive this. 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
You don't need the Curio to play three lands per turn. When you can play a land, there will be a basic land to play. I should have caught this and sent you PM about it, but unfortunately I was busy doing other stuff. T1 Forest > Exploration > Forest > Exploration > Plains > Lynx is viable. From here you do 6 damage per turn. So OTD I die, but OTP I can cast Vraska in time to blow up your Lynx and win? Wait, do I actually win a game? 3-3
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
I misread Stilus. Math from dte says I can draw OTP but not OTD. 1-4
6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
I think I lose to Exploration > Valakut even if we don't count the other two cards. My deck isn't very good. 0-6
7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
I lose to the three 2/2s no matter what I do. 0-6
8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
No Planeswalkers for me. 0-6
9. alphastryk: Island, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
Dack can kill my hand, so I need to counter it. Beacon would beat me long term so I'll need to counter that as well. What you can do is play four lands and play Land Equilibrium. I can't counter it, because you'd follow up with Dack and I'd lose my hand or have to counter that and lose to Beacon. So I let it resolve. Now if I cast Vraska I'll be tapped out and you can resolve Dack and I lose my hand again, but if you do that I get to keep Vraska an extra turn. And Vraska can kill Dack. So I do that: LE resolves, I tap lands, play a land and sac one, cast little Vraska and +1 it to 6 loyalty. If you cast Dack and make me discard two, I'll keep a Counterspell for Beacon. Afterwards Vraska kills Dack and I win with little Vraska with Counterspell up. If you instead Beacon Vraska, it goes to 1 loyalty, but I get to untap with my entire hand turned on. SO I think I win either way. 6-0
10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Island
Little Vraska eats the Hydra, Griffin and Chain get countered. 6-0
11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
Shocking. 0-6
12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Fun fact: annihilator 6 isn't that big of a deal after playing 15 basics. I start with Island-go for a few turns, so I can counter Lily. I can play Vraska TU with UUUU open, and start ticking her up in order to go for the ultimate, which is my plan to win. I don't see how you stop me. Another 6-0?
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
Ula is a lot more dangerous. Vraskas can only destroy. But I only need UU open for Vraska TU, so I can make the three 1/1 game winners by turn 9 with protection. You can stop all of them, but the turn after I cast Vraska TU, I drop Vraska RS, which I tick up by making 2/2s and then ultimate in order to lower your life total to 1, which is also a way to win. I'll add math below. I think I win this. 6-0
Total: 28 points.
EDIT: We decided on a new rule: banned cards get to be replaced by basics of choice. Which is silly in this round, but better than losing everything. Edited my results.
Against Serguei
S: Island1
A: Island1
S: Island2
A: Island2
S: Plains1
A: Island3
S: Island3 (cast Griffin is a bad idea, I'll Counterspell it)
A: Island4
S: Island4
A: Forest1
S: Island5
A: Swamp1
S: Island6
A: Island5, Vraska TU. You counter with FoN. I let that resolve.
S: Island7, cast Griffin. Counter with Counterspell.
A: Island6, cast Vraska RS. Make 2/2. Plow it. A=22.
S: Island8
A: Make 2/2
S: Island9
A: -10 make you 1 life, attack for the win.
Last edited by Asthereal; 02-17-2021 at 06:17 AM.
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Combo?
305.2. A player can normally play one land during his or her turn; however, continuous effects may increase this number.
305.2a To determine whether a player can play a land, compare the number of lands the player can play this turn with the number of lands he or she has already played this turn [...]. If the number of lands the player can play is greater, the play is legal.
611.2. A continuous effect may be generated by the resolution of a spell or ability.
611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as “until end of turn”). [...].
611.3. A continuous effect may be generated by the static ability of an object.
611.3b The effect applies at all times that the permanent generating it is on the battlefield [...].
It actually screws me quite badly, haha, but it isn't as if I was going to win anything realistically.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Does that make you neutral, in favour or against?
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Neutral, I don't really care much, just noting that I played what I did figuring most people would not play FoN. Turns out I was right, but ultimately also completely wrong!Does that make you neutral, in favour or against?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I don't think this is an error.
T1 Forest. Exploration. Plains. Lynx
T2 Island. Curio. Forest. Exploration -> bounce Exploration.
Forest. Exploration -> bounce Exploration. x 10000
attack with infinity Lynx
If you can stop Curio, then he has the "backup plan" of T1 Exploration -> Exploration -> Lynx and 6 damage per turn.
OTD Cat wins on turn 2.
OTP you would have Counterspell up to stop Curio, and the 6/7 Lynx is just slow enough to die to Vraska.
T1 Dark Ritual -> tel-jilad stylus -> mesmeric fiend -> Tap Stylus in response.
Fiend goes to the bottom of his library, then a card gets permanently exiled from your hand.
T2 He draws Fiend and casts it again, Stylusing it in response.
T3 same thing...
Basically he exiles 1 card per turn from your hand, then can eventually do the same to permanents with Reality Acid while the 1/1 attacks.
However you have double Counterspell and Stylus can't save things that don't resolve.
OTP he exiles both Counterspells before you hit 2 mana, then the Vraskas.
OTD he can exile 1 Counterspell but then you have a Counter up for the next Fiend and he can never resolve Fiend again.
These decks are complicated.
I posted the math for the Scute Swarm deck in my post. I think it'll matter for many others.
3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker WW - Double checking on the draw, Transgress gets countered, I recur Transgress with Elixir, it gets countered again, you get to resolve both Vraskas, I Trophy away Unseen, you get to ultimate and I barely survive thanks to Elixir.
2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm WL
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration WW
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid WL
6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth WW
7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards LL - Not much I can do against a Zombie army.
8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach WW
9. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium WW?
10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Negation WW?
11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void WW - On the draw, I get down Elixir and the City-Tree and work toward making an army of tokens. Thanks to Elixir lifegain (relevant because you can hardcast Changle), I have enough of a buffer to make the army even through the threat of Path and Changle/Shocker blocks.
12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn WW
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin WW - Transgress the Mind causes you issues in that I am free to loop Trophy with Elixir, and you never get to cast Ulamog.
20w = 60 points
Transgress the Mind was anti-ramp/anti-Eldrazi tech (it was that or Appetite for Brains), otherwise that slot would have probably been Oko. Interestingly, this format is probably deep enough for its own season, which I hope we can be in favor of so that everyone can legally submit Force of Will and not feel bad about missing cards banned in Legacy. (OK, the real reason is because the format is interesting.)
Fourth card actually makes Elixir loops more reasonable, although that might just be the presence of Force of Negation making me say that.
Last edited by Wrath of Pie; 02-11-2021 at 08:21 AM.
If you recast an Exploration the game sees it as a new card and allows you to play another land. An old Enchantress trick with Words of Wind.
Additional land plays don't work like this. Bouncing the Exploration temporarily reduces the number of additional land plays for the current turn, so recasting it just resets the value.
Huh. Has this rule changed? I thought you used to be able to declare which land was the extra land, instead of checking the total number.
That was my best interpretation of his deck. Otherwise I don't know what that Curio does. Was it just to play 3 lands a turn?
The entries: 6. Reeplcheep: Exploration, Azusa, lost but seeking, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
To be completed later...
1. Asthereal (TO): Counterspell, Counterspell, Vraska the Unseen, Vraska, Relic Seeker
WW 6-0
2. jhhdk: Exploration, Exploration, Xantid Swarm, Scute Swarm
Lots of math...
WW 6-0 but close otp per Jdhk.
3. Wrath of Pie: Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy, Transgress the Mind, Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
LL 0-6
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Exploration, Steppe Lynx, Cloudstone Curio, Exploration
With confirmation below that the combo doesn’t work, WW 6-0.
5. dte: dark ritual, tel-jilad stylus, mesmeric fiend, reality acid
LL 0-6 per analysis below.
7. H: Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, From Under the Floorboards
OTD I am forced to chump with asuza, so I lose. OTP 3bolts plus 2 blockers stabilized and annihilates before you can rebuild.
3-3.
8. FTW: Veil of Summer, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Archon of Valor's Reach
Without exploration I can only bolt once, not twice, before I die.
WL 3-3
9. alphastryk: Force of Will, Dack Fayden, Beacon of Destruction, Land Equilibrium
No matter what you force I get to start bolting you with 8 lands on t4. That’s good enough OTP. OTD I am 1 land short.
WL 3-3.
10. maxx!: Mistcutter Hydra, Misthollow Griffin, Food Chain, Force of Will
LL 0-6 fow on exploration makes me too slow.
11. silkster: Shocker, Path to Exile, Chancellor of the Tangle, Leyline of the Void
Expected shocker but not leyline. I believe I get to valakut everything before you kill me regardless.
12. Tylert: Liliana of the veil, Leyline of sanctity, Assassin's trophy, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Valakut gets trophied and you get annihilated after killing kozilek twice.
13. Serguei: Force of Negation, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, Swords to Plowshares, Misthollow Griffin
You can force and plow my enablers, but I can bolt griffins before it kills me and I get to annihilate you first (because I get at least 1 land off of Azusa)
Last edited by Reeplcheep; 02-11-2021 at 11:25 AM.
Rules for game state-based effects have changed several times since Urza's Saga. I don't think the combo works either, but we'll need to do a deep dive into the rules to be sure.
I actually thought the Curio was there to be able to make three lands per turn, which isn't needed under the 4CB rules for this round. I didn't see the combo attempt at all.
EDIT: How I think it works:
You have an Exploration in play and one in hand, and Curio in play. You are allowed to play two lands in total now.
You play Exploration2, it resolves. Curio now triggers. With this trigger on the stack, before anyone is allowed to do anything, the game checks how many lands may be played. That answer is now 3.
The trigger resolves, bouncing Exploration1. After this has resolved, and before anyone gains priority, the game again checks how many lands may be played. That answer is now 2.
Then you get priority and are allowed to drop a land, if you have played less than 2 lands yet this turn.
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I tried searching on Wizards website, only to be reminded how much it sucks, so I gave up on that route. (The answer is probably there somewhere.)
The Curio is probably because of the nonfunctional combo you mentioned, it's actually a blank.
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