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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #961
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I have a few questions before I launch the final round, as it matters for my preparation for season 3:

    1. How do you guys like the system for season point scoring?
    Do you like the current system? Or did you prefer the previous system with Formula 1 style scoring? Any suggestions?

    I personally quite like the current season scoring system. It's fair, and missing a round doesn't kill you.
    Missing 3 rounds does hurt your standings quite a bit, but rewarding loyal players is a good thing imho.
    I do have one idea for a change though: we could introduce "megaslayer" and "peacekeeper" bonusses.

    In the current system, winning everything is already advantageous, as it grants you 6 season points, but it's such a feat I'd say 3 bonus points could be added.
    This would make the last round more exciting, as someone who's 6 points behind could still become champion if he manages a "megaslayer" bonus.

    Also, awarding a fat bonus for drawing every game could be cool, as it adds a new strategy that wasn't viable before.
    In the current system you get 2 season points for the round if you draw all your games. We could add a 5 point "peacekeeper" bonus, pushing the total cume to 7 points.

    What do you guys think? Bad idea? Good idea?


    2. My current plan for season 3 is a tour that visits all the blocks, starting at the old Ice Age block. So it would like something like this:
    Round 1: Ice Age block (Ice Age, Homeland, Alliances)
    Round 2: Mirage block (Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight)
    Round 3: Tempest block (Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus)
    Round 4: Urza's block (Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Destiny)
    and so on, continuing until wherever we decide to stop. No bannings. If something breaks a round, it only breaks one round anyway.

    2A: Do you guys like this idea?
    2B: How many rounds should we play this?

    I would suggest 12 rounds again, as 12 rounds is a nice number for a season I think.
    I do think we need to decide this beforehand, so we have a clear competition.

    Looking forward to reading your thoughts on season 3!


    EDITS: Cleaned up the post, added a suggestion.
    Last edited by Asthereal; 07-03-2019 at 05:09 AM.
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  2. #962

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I like the scoring method we used.

    Your idea of bonuses is fun.

    I like the idea of going through blocks. However, I do think that there should be some bans. Maybe just the top deck, or top two, but there should be some.

    Concerning the length of each block, I feel like 12 might be too many. We could try 12 for the first season to see how it goes, but I think 8 might be more reasonable. I don't want things to get too stale.

  3. #963
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I like the current scoring method, but also like the idea of bonuses so there are rewards for creative alternative strategies or total domination in one round.

    @Whoshim: My interpretation was that each block gets only one week/round. There's no point of bannings (next week it's a new cardpool anyway) and it never gets stale. Asthereal, is that what you meant?

    For the number of rounds it really depends on how many blocks look fun enough to use for this format. Maybe some should be skipped.

  4. #964
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    @Whoshim: My interpretation was that each block gets only one week/round. There's no point of bannings (next week it's a new cardpool anyway) and it never gets stale. Asthereal, is that what you meant?
    This is correct. First week/round would be the old Ice Age block, so without the new crap. Second week/round would be Mirage block, and so on.
    So bannings have to be decided before each round starts, adn honestly, I think that might be a little hard to do.
    We could ban Force of Will and maybe Cursed Scroll is good? I'm not even sure that's true, as you need to keep a card in hand for it.

    Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure what belongs to the old Ice Age block. That's before the flow of one main set with two expansions.
    Gatherer says Alliances belongs in there, but I'm not sure about Fallen Empires, Homelands and The Dark...
    This is harder than I expected.
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  5. #965
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    This is correct. First week/round would be the old Ice Age block, so without the new crap. Second week/round would be Mirage block, and so on.
    So bannings have to be decided before each round starts, adn honestly, I think that might be a little hard to do.
    We could ban Force of Will and maybe Cursed Scroll is good? I'm not even sure that's true, as you need to keep a card in hand for it.

    Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure what belongs to the old Ice Age block. That's before the flow of one main set with two expansions.
    Gatherer says Alliances belongs in there, but I'm not sure about Fallen Empires, Homelands and The Dark...
    This is harder than I expected.
    As "printed" Ice Age block was Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances.

    It was later "changed" to be Ice Age, Coldsnap, and Alliances. Homelands (now), Fallen Empires, The Dark, Legends, and Arabian Nights don't really have "blocks" to be in, they were really made to be "stand-alone" in a sense.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  6. #966
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    all good for me except bonuses.

  7. #967

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Bonuses for DD across the board is a bad idea, because it makes that the optimal strategy unless the bonus is really small.

    In block formats the real constraint is going to be mana, because most blocks lack storage lands.

  8. #968

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Ah, sorry about the misread of the block idea. The block plan is good.

    Concerning the DD bonus, if I remember rightly, the 4CB rules indicate that the deck must be able to win a game, so you cannot just design the deck to draw games with no win condition. Plains, StP, StP, StP is not a legal deck, for example. So I think it is worth having the bonus in place just for fun. I don't think it will be awarded often.

  9. #969
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Yeah I think with that 4CB rule that your deck must be able to win a game against a goldfish to be legal, it should avoid degenerate DD strategies like 3 answers + 1 land but reward some accidental DDs from creative control decks with weak win conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure what belongs to the old Ice Age block.
    "Blocks" didn't exist back then. There were Core Sets (with only reprints) and Expansions (with new cards). Expansions were smaller sets with 8-card boosters. They were not created with any sort of Limited or Block formats in mind, just an additional pool of cards to expand the game. These expansions were: Legends, Arabian Nights, Antiquities, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands.

    Ice Age was a new concept, a standalone large set instead of a small expansion. It included basic lands, a larger card pool, reprints of staples like Counterspell and Dark Ritual, and could be played either on its own or combined with older Magic cards. It was the first non-core set available in Starter decks and 15-card boosters. It was very popular.

    Chronicles (reprint set) and Homelands (expansion) were released after Ice Age, but Homelands was not released as part of the Ice Age block and really had nothing to do with it. It was just chronologically between Ice Age and Alliances. Blocks did not exist then. Homelands was a bust of a set with underpowered cards and the worst lands in the game. After the failure of Homelands and Fallen Empires, WOTC abandoned the 8-card booster single expansions with parasitic mechanics. Instead they went back to the popular Ice Age and printed an expansion for that: Alliances.

    Then Mirage was the first implementation of the 3-set block design. Once they established the formula of 3-set blocks, Ice Age was incomplete, so they eventually printed Coldsnap to finish out the block.

    tl;dr - Alliances is in the block. Homelands is not, and sucks. It should either be Ice Age + Alliances or Ice Age + Alliances + Coldsnap.
    To have more interesting 4CB decks, I recommend adding Fallen Empires (lands like Hollow Trees and Havenwood Battleground). Old creatures sucked. We need mana. Otherwise it's a lot of Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Tundra Wolves, Tundra Wolves...

    Edit: (I guess there are some creative options like
    Snow-Covered Swamp, Insidious Bookworm, Dark Ritual, Kjeldoran Dead
    Snow-Covered Mountain, Orcish Conscriptsx3
    Snow-Covered Mountain, Orcish Lumberjack, Snow-Covered Forest, Karplusan Yeti
    ... but the existence of StP ruins your fun. Extra mana improves things.)
    Last edited by FTW; 07-03-2019 at 07:08 AM.

  10. #970

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    Ah, sorry about the misread of the block idea. The block plan is good.

    Concerning the DD bonus, if I remember rightly, the 4CB rules indicate that the deck must be able to win a game, so you cannot just design the deck to draw games with no win condition. Plains, StP, StP, StP is not a legal deck, for example. So I think it is worth having the bonus in place just for fun. I don't think it will be awarded often.
    The base CB rules actually do not require winning the game against a (blank) goldfish, otherwise Karn Liberated/storage land/two removal or disruption spells or Reanimate/creature discard/land/removal are not legal submissions.

    Now Backbuild is a different story...

  11. #971
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Bonuses for DD across the board is a bad idea, because it makes that the optimal strategy unless the bonus is really small.
    Actually it wouldn't be. We would need to make the "win all" score + bonus bigger, so that the optimal strategy is to win every game.
    Also, the "draw everything" strategy has the big disadvantage that if you fail, you score rather poorly. So if you go for it, it HAS to work out.

    But I see rather mixed response to the bonusses. I'll wait for a few more replies and see where we end up. If the response stays mixed, I'll leave it out.
    Or if someone who opposes to the idea has thoughts on how to make it better (different bonus numbers, for instance), be sure to post them here.


    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    As "printed" Ice Age block was Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances.
    Thanks. Let's start with that one, then. So:

    R01: Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances
    R02: Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight
    R03: Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus
    R04: Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Destiny
    and so on.
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  12. #972
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Thanks. Let's start with that one, then. So:

    R01: Ice Age, Homelands, Alliances
    Looks like my comment was indeed too long for anyone to read. Repeating the relevant part..

    tl;dr - Alliances is in the block. Homelands is not, and sucks (it was just printed chronologically between Ice Age and Alliances but had nothing to do with it, it was a standalone expansion like Fallen Empires. 3-set blocks didn't exist back then, they started with Mirage). Coldsnap was printed later to finish the block. It should either be Ice Age + Alliances or Ice Age + Alliances + Coldsnap.

    To have more interesting 4CB decks, I recommend adding Fallen Empires to get lands like Hollow Trees and Havenwood Battleground. Old creatures sucked. We need mana. Otherwise it's a lot of Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Tundra Wolves, Tundra Wolves...

  13. #973
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Looks like my comment was indeed too long for anyone to read. Repeating the relevant part..

    tl;dr - Alliances is in the block. Homelands is not, and sucks (it was just printed chronologically between Ice Age and Alliances but had nothing to do with it, it was a standalone expansion like Fallen Empires. 3-set blocks didn't exist back then, they started with Mirage). Coldsnap was printed later to finish the block. It should either be Ice Age + Alliances or Ice Age + Alliances + Coldsnap.

    To have more interesting 4CB decks, I recommend adding Fallen Empires to get lands like Hollow Trees and Havenwood Battleground. Old creatures sucked. We need mana. Otherwise it's a lot of Plains, Swords to Plowshares, Tundra Wolves, Tundra Wolves...
    Ah right, I may have missed that bit.

    I personally really hate the fact that they added Coldsnap from 2006 to a block from 1995.
    Also, I'm not a fan of adding Fallen Empires, as it doesn't belong to the "block".
    Perhaps we should just start with the first proper block then: Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight.
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  14. #974
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ah right, I may have missed that bit.

    I personally really hate the fact that they added Coldsnap from 2006 to a block from 1995.
    Also, I'm not a fan of adding Fallen Empires, as it doesn't belong to the "block".
    Perhaps we should just start with the first proper block then: Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight.
    Yeah I'm fine with that. Mirage was printed with block cohesiveness in mind and has some better 1 drops.

    The 1 drops in Ice Age, Alliances, Homelands, etc are really terrible. Without storage lands or sac lands from Fallen Empires, the decks would be very boring. Plains + Tundra Wolves + StP seems broken in comparison.

  15. #975
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah I'm fine with that. Mirage was printed with block cohesiveness in mind and has some better 1 drops.

    The 1 drops in Ice Age, Alliances, Homelands, etc are really terrible. Without storage lands or sac lands from Fallen Empires, the decks would be very boring. Plains + Tundra Wolves + StP seems broken in comparison.
    Nah, there are much better options, but I won't spoil any, in case people convince me te start with Ice Age and Alliances without an additional set that doesn't really belong.
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  16. #976

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Actually it wouldn't be. We would need to make the "win all" score + bonus bigger, so that the optimal strategy is to win every game.
    Also, the "draw everything" strategy has the big disadvantage that if you fail, you score rather poorly. So if you go for it, it HAS to work out.
    It is much easier to go DD against everyone than to WW against everyone, because there is no need to include a win condition.

    Also a proposal for the block formats: Always have Mage-Ring Network legal, so the formats aren't all about 1- and 2-drops.

  17. #977

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I wouldn’t legalize extra cards that don’t belong to the blocks in question. After trying to work through 4CB scenarios using only Mirage and only Tempest (the sets, not the blocks), I realized there’s more to both formats than meets the eye. One-drops aren’t the only strategy. Many blocks contain cards — sometimes very obscure cards — that let you build 4CB decks with bigger spells, and it would be a pity for those cards to be outcompeted by a card that doesn’t come from the block being used.

  18. #978
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Yeah I agree Mirage, Tempest and future blocks should be left alone. There are powerful creative strategies in those blocks.

    I just think Ice Age + Alliances is extremely underpowered. The problem is that the cheap creatures suck while the answers are extremely good. Battery lands would let you play higher cc threats without taking up more slots. If you have to spend additional slots to ramp out bigger threats, you have fewer total threats and answers while another deck can answer your threat using minimal resources. Spells like Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will and Pyrokinesis are OP compared to the quality of creatures.

    If you don't want to add extra sets, what about skipping Ice Age completely? There are so many other fun blocks to get to, actual cohesive blocks built with Limited and Block Constructed in mind.
    Last edited by FTW; 07-10-2019 at 09:52 AM.

  19. #979
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I agree with the idea that we shouldn't add cards to the blocks. The blocks will provide us with options, we just have to get a little creative here and there.
    But anyway... time for the last round.


    The final round (12) of 4CB Season 2, the Vintage Bannathon, has started!

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 12, so you can start sending me your decks.
    You will find standings for round 11 and new bannings based on results from round 11 in the Google Spreadsheet, or on the previous page, or in the first two posts of the thread.
    (If scores change still, I will adjust everything accordingly. NOTE: If scores do change, this might affect bannings.)

    DEADLINE FOR ROUND 12: WEDNESDAY the 10th of July, at 6:00AM Central European Time.
    (Note time zones. 6AM CET on Wednesday is like 9PM on Tuesday evening in EST.)

    PLEASE NOTE:
    - The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Goblin Guide, Mogg Fanatic, Pithing Needle, Cavern of Souls (so with card tags around each card, and not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S02R12 in the topic. Most of you already do this. Thanks a lot, this really saves me the time and hassle of copying and pasting text and tags!
    - The banned list (you'll find it in the second post and in the Google Spreadsheet). So keep an eye on what you send in.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Also, the Google Spreadsheet has been updated: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Happy deck designing everybody! Let's see if we can stop FTW from taking the crown!


    Fun fact: Two of you already sent me your decks, so I have extensively meta'd against them and will crush you.
    Unless you send something new, in which case I might lose 0-6 against you. I'll PM the guys in question as well.
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  20. #980

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    The reason I suggested Mage-Ring Network is because Block CB variants usually end up as 5CB to allow for more options, so as the weakest storage land it has the same effect on 4CB while having a cost of not producing colored mana (which can be irrelevant, but nothing can be perfect).

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