The most ridiculous turn 1 kills involve cards like LED and draw 7s, by just redrawing your hand over and over again and then Storm infinity:Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Lion's Eye Diamond, Echo of Eons, Pull from Eternity, Grapeshot
LED makes WWW. Then crack for UUU, discarding hand. Cast Echo from graveyard. It goes to exile and you redraw the others. Cast Pull for W, putting Echo back in graveyard. Play LED, crack, cast Echo from graveyard. Each loop nets +2 mana. Repeat x10000.
Infinite mana & infinite storm.
This is also infinite mana & storm, but just "wins" by discarding their hand and attacking for 15 Annihilator 6.
Lion's Eye Diamond, Wheel of Fortune, Regrowth, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
LED make RRR. Cast Wheel, crack in response for GGG, Emrakul reshuffles. Wheel resolves, drawing the rest. Cast Regrowth returning Wheel. LED for RRR. Cast Wheel, crack LED for GGG.... Repeat x10000
LED and draw 7s are too good. But banning LED isn't enough.
Delif's Cone, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
Fountain of Youth, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top, Grapeshot
Claws of Gix, Elixir of Immortality, Ichor Wellspring, Grapeshot
Memnite, Elixir of Immortality, Skullclamp, Grapeshot
Infinite mana & infinite storm again.
Banning the storm mechanic isn't enough because Banefire, Exsanguinate, Storm Entity, Aetherflux Reservoir, or any other win condition works in most of these turn 1 storm decks.
Even if you ban the obvious looping cards like draw 7s, Bauble, Top, and Elixir, you can also do silly things like this
Shield Sphere, Shrieking Drake, Cavern Harpy, Tendrils of Agony
Sheild Sphere for UUU. Drake to return it. Sphere making BBB. Harpy, returning itself and Drake. (UBB floating, 19 life, 4 storm).
Drake returning Sphere. Sphere making UUU. Harpy, returning itself and Drake (UUB floating, 18 life, 7 storm)
Drake returning Sphere. Sphere making UUU. Harpy, returning itself and Drake (UUU floating, 17 life, 10 storm)
Drake returning Sphere. Sphere making BBB. (UUBBB floating, 12 storm)
Tendrilsx13
These ones are also problematic
Infinite turns till Reactor wins:
Mox Opal, Voltaic Key, Time Vault, Darksteel Reactor
T1 Barren Glory, then Chant their turn:
Dark Sphere, Lotus Petal, Orim's Chant, Barren Glory
T1 Prison tries to stop these combo decks from playing spells.
Can't cast artifacts or 0 cmc spells:
Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Archon of Valor's Reach, Cavern of Souls
Lose your hand and graveyard, with free protection slot:
Tormod's Crypt, Dark Deal, Nether Spirit, Chancellor of the Annex
Can hardcast either Chancellor or Lavinia, and equip for faster clock:
Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Annex, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Bone Saw
Too bad most of those decks lose 0-6 to this turn 0 deck
Leyline of Anticipation, Memnite, Memnite, Collective Defiance
"Turn 0" Memnites cast kicked Collective Defiance, destroy their hand and burn something
Banning Leyline helps, but then there are just a lot of decks that 3-3 each other winning turn 1 OTP by either comboing off or locking the opponent out before they can play.
There are just too many silly things you can do with that much free mana. We need some more restrictive bannings in place or to punish the use of 0-mana artifacts.
Last edited by FTW; 12-28-2020 at 09:48 AM.
5-1 card blind: You get to make a 5 card hand, but your opponent gets to exile ANY card from your hand before the game begins.
Hey guys, as you probably noticed, I was gone for Christmas. Normal posting should resume now, though I'm not home yet.
I hope everybody had nice Christmas days!
Sure you don't want to go non-land here? Otherwise we'd be forced to take an extra land, just to be sure we can cast something.
But anyway, as you guys have posted enough ideas for more than one season of Deviant something, I thought I'd add my own plan to the discussion.
This is what I had in mind:
DEVIANT LEGACY - PART 2 (we start with our Legacy banned list again, possibly with additional bannings)
1. Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).
2. Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an Aether Vial token in play. Additional bannings: Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker.
3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players.
4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation.
5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal token in play. (Funny: I saw this one posted earlier as well. Great minds...)
6. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.
7. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with [W] [U] [B] [R] [G] in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end.
8. Alpha: Only cards printed in Alpha are legal.
9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life, the game ends in a draw.
10. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.).
11. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal.
12. Unique: Each player gets 6 additional points in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round. NB: To calculate season points, the points for the round are still divided by the number of opponents in the round, so it's possible to gain more than 6 season points this round.
The sharper among you will probably recognize a number of these from the 3CB Reddit thread that one of you posted to help me find ideas for the first Deviant season.
But anyway, I think I'll swap a few of the above with rounds from your ideas, but I'll save all of them so we can create a third Deviant season afterwards.
Please let me know what you like and don't like from my list, and what your favourite ideas are from the other suggestions, so I can get a feel for which round seem interesting to you guys.
Or just post that you like most of these and are interested in playing multiple seasons of Deviant something with the mentioned ideas.
PS. I'll look at the results for the season soon and post the official standings afterwards.
For now I have to say: what a race! Well done to both silk and dte for one of the closest finishes we've ever had!
Join the 4 Card Blind competition!
Tabernacle might be fine, but no need to risk it.
The big issue is that it just breaks any artifact with converted mana cost 0, as per the genius of FTW.oooohhh artifact lands :) those should be banned of course :)
Each turn, you may play a basic land from outside the game.please quote your land rule variant that has been around and is a way better implementation :) I just made this to mimic hearthstone!
Honestly could be its own season, the format is rather deep.
It was printed after the first season ended, and it hasn't been relevant because we have been playing variant formats the whole time.Haven't we ban it in a previous season?
Poor Canada, it has become the token nation of bears. You did solve the Monstrous Hound issue, simply by playing another land, so that's good, and the clock is fast enough that the "lose if your opponent does something" plans I am aware of aren't legal.
Suppression Field? (The bigger issue is probably that the token is an artifact, so it is actually vulnerable to artifact destruction and thus the token is actually a trap to build around, which is probably why the emblem implementation was favored.)2. Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an Aether Vial token in play. Additional bannings: Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker.
No comment here, other than poor Elspeth, Knight-Errant isn't so good, but I can live without wanting to spam Elspeths for a round.3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players.
Beast Within is hilariously good with Elixir of Immortality in this format (I wouldn't even think of submitting anything else, honestly), and new printings have not changed that other than to make Assassin's Trophy an option. You probably also have to look at the shuffle Eldrazi and Exploration, but Elixir loops are a more pressing concern.4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation.
Interested to see if this diverges from a vanilla Legacy format.5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal token in play. (Funny: I saw this one posted earlier as well. Great minds...
Same here.6. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.
Wheel and Deal is a card, one that the format will likely revolve around unless it is banned.7. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with [W] [U] [B] [R] [G] in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end.
Not really compatible with the Legacy banlist, because no Lotus means we are stuck with dueling 1- and 2-drops.8. Alpha: Only cards printed in Alpha are legal.
I look forward to the pro-lifegain round.9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life, the game ends in a draw.
Vanilla Legacy with sorceries banned does not seem that interesting.10. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.).
Interesting concept, but probably not in practice.11. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal.
This is a potentially interesting deviation on a vanilla Legacy round, because the bonus points make slightly suboptimal choices potentially better, but we all know that, so it becomes a double metagame.12. Unique: Each player gets 6 additional points in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round. NB: To calculate season points, the points for the round are still divided by the number of opponents in the round, so it's possible to gain more than 6 season points this round.
I like all ideas posted, could be very fun, and there are a lot of different ones!
Maybe we could go chaos: every week, at random a deviant rule from the long list of all propositions, with a banlist at random among a list as well (e.g. Modern/pauper/peasant/vintage bannathons, plus the 4CB legacy banlist, normal modern, block from 1-2 blocks at random. Thassa's oracle is always banned).
Like this every week, we get a surprise format. Some may be fully broken, most probably not at all. Both card pool and rules will vary a lot. Bonus: no need to chose or decide anything :)
I'm a little behind the times, but here are my results from round 12:
1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla
Encroach puts in work. WW
6-0
2. jhhdk: Forest, Golgari Rot Farm, Broken Fall, Ochran Assassin
Encroach was a good choice. WW
6-0
3. dte: Rugged highlands, Vitality charm, Lightning Axe, Serene remembrance
OTP: Encroach gets it done. W
OTD: Encroach is dead, and your loop defeats my terrible creatures. L
3-3
4. Wrath of Pie: Mountain, Crystal Vein, Geomancer's Gambit, Kris Mage
OTP: Encroach and then Mummy gets it done, as you can never ping Mummy without trading and you never get to blow up my land. (Wrath had this as a draw as well, but I'm pretty sure its a win for me) W
OTD: You can lead with Vein to dodge Encroach, but then I just play out Mummy and can always force a draw by attacking first. D
4-1
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Geothermal Crevice, Forest, Dark Deal, Basking Rootwalla
OTP: Encroach takes away Crevice / Dark Deal, and I'll be left with a 2 creatures, each of which defeats Rootwalla on its own. W
OTD: You can lead on Crevice, forcing me to play a creature before I lose my hand. After that though, all we can do is draw by sitting back or trading 1/1s. D
4-1
6. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Pharika’s Chosen, Cauldron Familiar, Witch’s Oven
I don't see a way for me to interact or beat your Familiar / Oven loop. LL
0-6
7. alphastryk: Swamp, Encroach, Ruthless Ripper, Festering Mummy
This is me. I went back and forth on Encroach vs Specter's Shriek, but ultimately decided land hate was better vs slow decks, and I already beat the fast poison deck without discard.
8. silkster: Forest, Mountain, Orcish Lumberjack, Acidic Slime
OTP: I can play out both my creatures before Slime takes my land. I don't see a path to anything but a draw here. D
OTD: I get my land Slimed before I can play a second creature. L
1-4
9. FTW: Island, Zulaport Duelist, Force Spike, Dismember
Encroach is bad and all your cards have text. LL
0-6
10. Tylert: Aether vial, Island, Faceless butcher, Qasali pridemage
Can't beat Vial decks with Encroach. LL
0-6
11. H: Mountain, Reckless Waif, Forge Devil, Branded Brawlers
My creatures are too much worse than yours. Also you have 3 to my 2. LL
0-6
12. maxx!: Treetop Village, Selesnya Sanctuary, Silhana Ledgewalker, Armadillo Cloak
Encroach gets it done. WW
6-0
Total: 30 points.
I like the suggestion for the chosen card to be non-land. There also need to be clear rules about the order in which the cards are chosen.
Most of the suggested rounds look good. I'm interested in 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 the most. I think 2,4 need to be fixed. Dislike 8, and I can't really get a read on 10,11,12, so I defer to others.
1. Canadian Backbuild: Having suggested almost exactly the same Bears deck and being Canadian, I feel very seen. :)
2. Vials Galore: I think 4 creatures with a free vial is going to be REALLY complicated and messy. That's why I was going for wonkier card types and essentially trying to restrict it to 3CB+Vial.
3. Berserker: I was trying to figure out how to make creatures more relevant. This seems good.
4. Basic Bloom: With 4 cards, this feels like we'll get dozen matches that no one will have the ability and patience to solve. We would need a lot of bans. Or maybe a Rest In Peace emblem.
5. The Coin:
6. Bleed: I like this, or Impatience or Antagonism. I almost listed Copper Tabled in my list.
7. WUBRG: This looks wild. I think some of the more seasoned players will wreck me, but I like this.
8. Alpha: This feels underwhelming.
9. Race for Life: I love this idea. I would also add "effects that would cause a player to win or lose the game instead do nothing".
10. The Epic Round: I thought this made sorceries much stronger, but Wrath of Pie disagrees and now I'm really intrigued.
11. Concise: Wild. I have no idea.
12. Unique: My only suggestion is that you make the payoff directly in round points. With 11 players, 6 match points is 0.6 round points, so I'd just call it that.
What if for a multicolored round you had something like "players start the game with 3 basic lands of their choice, but the mana they produce can't be spent on colorless requirements"? It might need some other tweaking, and maybe it strays far enough that it's its own thing.
Given the name of the round, I would make that 1 round point ;)
Other than that, I like it all.
I have a couple of rules questions about 4CB, maybe better if I post them now between rounds:
- Is the fact that all information is known used for ruling? e.g. Library of leng + Tortured existence, if I understand correctly is a pretty bad interaction in a normal game as you cannot reveal the card, but what about perfect info xCB?
- What happens with draw replacements? I imagine the series of "words of Xx" should be legit and quite powerful, but do not remember seeing them in the thread, so I am unsure?
The real issue is that the token can be easily interacted with, defeating the purpose of the round.
Land Rule is not as bad as you think once you ban Elixir loops (the other loops are easier to interact with, because Elixir shuffles itself, but Beast Within/Assassin's Trophy are probably still an issue).4. Basic Bloom: With 4 cards, this feels like we'll get dozen matches that no one will have the ability and patience to solve. We would need a lot of bans. Or maybe a Rest In Peace emblem.
Someone else has played a bit too much Backbuild, it seems.
I stand corrected, Mana Short is way better than Wheel and Deal.7. WUBRG: This looks wild. I think some of the more seasoned players will wreck me, but I like this.
Sorceries have to be really good to compete with creatures, so the only good options are token generators. Otherwise, you just play without them at all.10. The Epic Round: I thought this made sorceries much stronger, but Wrath of Pie disagrees and now I'm really intrigued.
alphastryk is correct that he beats me on the play, just a bit too slow to do anything about it.
Banning only Wheel and Deal only goes so far as long as Quicken is legal...
Round "zoo": players start with RGW in their manapool. This mana does not disappear at the end of phases and cannot pay for generic manacosts.
Removing U and B would remove most of the worst offenders, and promote the least used colors?
Quicken has the issue of costing a card slot and more importantly requiring the initial blue mana, so you had better be ready for it to be countered at least once, if not twice. It's not as good as you want it to be, especially when we banned most of the good mass discard.
We could simply not ban anything, because the format is going to be insanely broken anyways.
Quicken, Dark Deal, Veil of Summer, Nether Spirit looks pretty strong for a turn 0 deck, with Veil also protecting you from Mana Short and Wheel & Deal
If Dark Deal and Wheel of Fortune are both banned, that helps.
Mind Twist for X=3 is still dangerous, but more vulnerable to counters. Maybe you play something like Force of Will, Quicken, Mind Twist, Chancellor of the Forge so you can Twist for X=4 with FoW backup OTP, and then attempt to instant-speed Twist for X=3 OTD but risk counters, while your actual wincon is immune to counters, discard and mana denial.
Of course those types of decks lose to the simple 4x Chancellor of the Forge, which itself loses to the "fair deck" version:
Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Seething Song
They can also get predated by Turn 0 prison decks like Scout's Warning, Lodestone Golem, Force of Will, Misdirection
As you can see, this quickly devolves into a turn 0 format. Why would you ever go to the main phase when you start the game with 5 mana and can take actions in the upkeep?
I'm assuming Leyline of Anticipation was already banned, otherwise this is really 3CB.
I like dte's Zoo version. Not allowing it to be used for generic costs limits the broken plays you can make. Just be ready to beat T1 Woolly Thoctar.
Last edited by FTW; 12-30-2020 at 08:21 AM.
That is weak to the double-counter hands, along with good turn 1 flash threats. (Veil is definitely a big upgrade over Silence though.)
Shuffle Eldrazi also make that plan look rather bad, but playing a card that is likely never going to be cast is probably not worth it as anti-discard tech. On the other hand, they do enable LED loops that are resilient, probably some validity to that plan.
I love how most of these just lose to a boring common from Zendikar Rising.
Join the 4 Card Blind competition!
I guess flash creatures are a pretty strong counter strategy. It still becomes a turn 0 format, but maybe it wouldn't be that broken.I love how most of these just lose to a boring common from Zendikar Rising.
1 point seems crazy high, but it's also the final round of an intentionally crazy season, so maybe we want to open the door to insane comebacks. With a bit of luck, you could close a 6 point gap.
I asked about this a while ago with morphs. I think the conclusion is that all information is public. I think a good example is Mountain, Mountain, Goblin Piker, Lightning Bolt against Mountain, City of Traitors, Skirk Marauder, Scornful Egotist. When I asked, I was shut down by someone who said there's always a best line of play, but at least in the context of 4CB there is not. I'll play out one morph and start attacking with it. Do you bolt it or block? Depends what I did, which depends what you think I would do.
I think the added rule in 4cb is "you do not lose as a result of trying to draw from an empty library". Alternatively, it might be "whenever you would draw a card, you may choose not to", The difference here would be if I activate Words of War targeting your bear and you cast Harm's Way to redirect it to my bear. In one version, my bear dies; in the other, it lives.
Make it a vial emblem named Aether Emblem that taps. I don't think this is a problem at all.
I don't remember specifics, but I remember 3 cards seeming like too many when dealing with cards with buyback, or with activated abilities that make tokens or that give +1/+1 counters. It only gets worse when you start looping those, even if you're only buying back your cards once.
Honestly, I can't even remember if I've ever played Backbuild. I think I might have played one round once. Impatience, Antagonism, and Copper Tabled are just cards that I own, two of which sat in my trade binder for years after I rare-drafted them.
I quite like Round Zoo (starting with RGW that only pays for colored costs). You can still do a bunch of crazy things
Wait, what common from Zendikar Rising beats those broken decks? Edit: I guess Living Tempest beats a bunch of them.
Last edited by silkster; 12-30-2020 at 05:48 PM.
I might be wrong about this, but I think these are the rules our group has been using.
You have a draw step each turn. You do not lose from trying to draw from an empty library, but you also cannot replace a draw unless there is a real card there. (e.g. you cannot dredge back Stinkweed Imp or Darkblast with 0 cards in library, and Words of War does not work).
All information is public to both players, even if it would normally be concealed to the active player. For example, when there's an Emrakul reshuffle, both players know the order of the library. This matters because the "random" order has to be the worst order, but the effectiveness of the orders can depend on the opponent knowing which order you get your cards. To resolve this, we've always assumed the opponent is aware of the order of the reshuffled cards and plays against it optimally.
Asthereal could clarify.
Well, in a normal magic game, dredge does not work with an empty library, but words of war does.
I think there was a round with island sanctuary, it seems more similar to words of war (but still different).
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