Horned Kavu is 4/5 with a 0/1 blocker. If you attack I block and win. So you don't and we draw (because you can allways do first blood). 2/2Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
Ugh, did I miss an illegal deck? That's a shame. Sorry about that!
(BTW, Shield Sphere is also uncommon. The Thopter seems the only one still sort of legal right now...)
I'll calculate my own results tomorrow, probably. Don't think I'll be able to tonight.
Join the 4 Card Blind competition!
Shield Sphere was common in Masters Edition, back when they were trying to get old cards on Magic Online. It was easier to do that than remaster a bunch of old sets. (This was back when there were dailies that gave prizes solely in boosters.)
Thought he could play a creature first and then lava dart in response to trigger, but forgot his mountain is never untapped in the first place OTP.
maxx!: Swamp, Liliana's Steward, Dead Weight, Shamble Back
1. Asthereal (TO): Khalni Garden, Azorius Chancery, Selesnya Evangel, Esper Stormblade
I can always make you discard with Steward before you cast a creature. You can't cast your Evangel without both of your lands, so no matter what you discard you'll only have 1 creature left that you can play, and both of them die to Dead Weight, so Shamble back should get there. 6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Ferocious Tigorilla
Embarrassingly, there's no way for me to get both of my creatures in play at the same time. I can't ever block, so I have to try to race.
OTP:
m!: Steward
GS: Tigorilla
m!: Dead Weight, attack (GS 19)
GS: Attack (m! 18)
m!: Sac Steward, Shamble Back (m! 20)
We both need 10 attacks to win now, but you get to attack first. OTD is even worse. 0-6
3. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Memnite, Mana Skimmer, Culling the Weak
Are we ok with just calling Memnite Ornithopter? I'm fine with it, but Memnite (and Phyrexian Walker, haha) would both be illegal submissions. Anyway I can kill your 2/2. 6-0
4. dte: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Battle Screech, Battle Screech
Welcome! I can always make you discard with Steward before you cast anything. You have to keep both lands to ever do anything, so you have to discard a Screech. Fortunately for me, that means you're just barely short of being able to Flashback either of them, so you get 2 1/1 birds. I can Dead Weight one of them, so Shamble Back should get there. 6-0
5: FTW: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Ornithopter, Kjeldoran Dead
OTP I can play Steward. If you Cry, I can just pitch Dead Weight, then activate Steward to make you discard Kjeldoran Dead (or Ornithopter if you held that, but either way you can't play your Dead). Shamble Back gets there afterward.
OTD you can Cry and Haunt Ornithopter before I can play a creature. I'm definitely gonna lose 2 cards to Cry, and I can't beat KD with either of my threats, so I discard a threat, then Dead Weight Ornithopter on my turn and lose my other threat, forcing a draw. Or I can save Dead Weight for KD, but playing it on Ornithopter is funnier and forces the issue sooner, so let's go with that.
4-1
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
alphastryk ran a bunch of lines in their post and I can't find anything that doesn't result in draws either. 2-2
7. Wrath of Pie: Khalni Garden, Selesnya Sanctuary, Qasali Pridemage, Selesnya Evangel
OTP I play Steward. You play Garden, then I make you discard. You can't pitch your bounceland or you're totally locked out, so you have to discard a creature. I have Dead Weight for whichever creature you didn't discard, then get there with Shamble Back.
OTD you play Garden, I play Steward, then you play your bounceland. Steward is pretty bad while you're holding Khalni Garden, so I'll just keep him as a 1/2 and attack. I think I have to keep Dead Weight for your Evangel. Unfortunately for me, you can sit back with both Garden and Evangel in hand, and just attack with an exalted Pridemage. I can't Shamble until a creature dies, and you have no incentive to play into my removal. If I sac Steward, you pitch Khalni Garden, and now I can't beat your Pridemage with just my Zombie. Dead Weight on Pridemage means Evangel goes active, and I can't beat that.
3-3. Very cool deck
8. maxx!: Swamp, Liliana's Steward, Dead Weight, Shamble Back
This is me : ]
9. silkster: Swamp, Fume Spitter, Liliana's Steward, Bone Picker
This is a really hard one. I see tons of lines for draws, but I'm gonna try to find a winning line for me.
OTP I can play Steward. You can play either 1-drop, then I can Dead Weight it and sac Steward to make you discard. Bone Picker would stay dead in your hand forever, so you have to keep your other 1-drop. Then on my turn I can Shamble and that beats whatever 1-drop you have left. If you don't make a turn 1 play, I attack you with Steward until you're dead. If your turn 1 play is Fume Spitter and sac immediately, then I sac Steward to make you discard and then have Dead Weight for your other card, then Shamble to finish. I think I have all your lines covered here.
OTD you can lead with Steward or Spitter. If it's Steward, let's say I Dead Weight him. Your next turn then has to be Fume Spitter, and then mine has to be Steward. You can then sac Fume Spitter, make a Bone Picker, and then I can't race with a 2/2 and a 0/1, even starting from 22 life. So that's a loss for me. Instead, I could hold Dead Weight and play my own Steward on turn 1. You can sac yours and make me discard Shamble, then you have to play Bone Picker of leave it stranded. I remove Picker, and then we just have Steward vs Fume Spitter, which is a draw no matter how we do it. So the best I can do when you lead with Steward is force a draw.
OTD if you lead with Spitter, I can play my Steward, and then you can either play Bone Picker or your own Steward. Either way, I could then sac my Steward to get your last card, leaving you with either a Bone Picker, or a Fume Spitter and a Liliana's Steward. The Bone Picker play loses immediately, since I can Dead Weight it and still have Shamble. If instead it's the 2 1-drops, I can Dead Weight Steward and then win with Shamble against Fume Spitter. So you should lead with Steward and force the draw with the line above.
4-1 ?
10. H: Mountain, Lava Dart, Grim Initiate, Grim Initiate
This is tricky. I think Liliana's Steward is better as a creature, but first strike might still do me in. Maybe I can try to race and force you to stay behind for a draw?
OTP
m: Steward
H: Initiate
m: Dead Weight, attack (blocking here seems awful)(H 19)
H: Initiate
m: Shamble (m 22)
Things get dicey here. You can dart my Zombie to death on your turn, leaving me with a 1/2. Or I can sac Steward now to get rid of the first half of dart. If I do that, then you can just attack me with one creature until I either block or attack back, letting you kill it. If I hold Steward, the same things happens. You can attack with one guy at a time, and if I ever block you can finish off my blocker with Lava Dart. If instead I try to attack back, you can block and dart.
0-6
11. Tylert: Forest, Mountain, Bond Beetle, Horned Kavu
Dead Weight Bond Beetle. 6-0
6+0+6+6+4+2+3+4+0+6 = 37
Disappointing but reassuring that 3 other people went for similar black decks. Disappointing because I thought I would have an edge this round with a good read, but reassuring that my read wasn't too far off.
Me: silkster: Swamp, Fume Spitter, Liliana's Steward, Bone Picker
1. Asthereal (TO): Khalni Garden, Azorius Chancery, Selesnya Evangel, Esper Stormblade
Garden. Steward. Chancery, Use Steward, play Bone Picker. Losing the Garden/Evangel leaves you behind in the race, so discard Stormblade. My clock leaves you with 7 turns. Garden -> Evangel -> make token means you do 0, 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 5 at most, slowed by the Fumes. 6 points
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Ferocious Tigorilla
On my play, Fume Spitter. Tigorilla. Use Fumey, play Bone Picker. You kill in 7 turns. I do 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 to win in 6 turns.
On your play, I think I'm too slow so I'm on the blocking plan. WD, 4 points
3. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Memnite, Mana Skimmer, Culling the Weak
The play is crucial here. 3 points
4. dte: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Battle Screech, Battle Screech
I'm in time to pluck a Battle Screech to deny flashback and Fume Spitter + Bone Picker is more toughness than two birds can chew through. 6 points
5: FTW: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Ornithopter, Kjeldoran Dead
On my play, I lead on Fumespitter. If you play Cry, I land Bone Picker first and win the race. If you play KD, I kill it and make a threat.
On your play, T1 Kjeldoran Dead means I get to cast two spells and win, so you play Ornithopter + Cry. I play Fumey and we draw. WD 4 points
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
On my play, Steward into Bone Picker wins because you either discard one of your threats or discard the Cry and I get to play Fume Spitter.
On your play, you can sequence Spitter into Cry to force two discards, but I lead on Steward which can nab the Shamble Back in time. If you T2 Shamble back, it lets me cast Bone Picker and discard your Cry to protect my Fume Spitter, so I end up with 4 power to 3 (soon to be 3 to 2). WD, 4 points
7. Wrath of Pie: Khalni Garden, Selesnya Sanctuary, Qasali Pridemage, Selesnya Evangel
On my play, I catch one of your spells with Steward and win the race. On your play:
Garden - > Steward -> Sanctuary -> Bone Picker (discard Garden) -> Pridemage -> Spitter, Picker hits for 3.
You now have 6 turns.
T1 Play Evangel, hit for 3. Silkster at 17.
T2 3x5 isn't enough. Making a token means you'll do at most 4x4. Another token makes it 5x3, so not enough. 6 points
8. maxx!: Swamp, Liliana's Steward, Dead Weight, Shamble Back
On my play: Steward -> Steward -> Bone Picker (discard Shamble) -> Dead Weight, and Steward bounces with Fume Spitter.
On your play: T1 Steward into T2 Deadweight my 1 drop + discard leaves me with at most 1 power, which loses to the Shambler. DL, 1 point
10. H: Mountain, Lava Dart, Grim Initiate, Grim Initiate
My initial impressions on this match include LL, DD, and WW as possibilities. I'm intrigued.
Lave Dart can't kill both of my small creatures to keep me from Bone Picker, but it does kill the flyer, and I think it's bad for me if that happens. My game plan is to play the Steward and not use it, then play the Fume Spitter and not use it. If you Dart down either of my creatures at any point, then I use the other on my next turn and make 3 power that will win the race. If you play both Initiates, then I Steward away the Dart and make a winning Bone Picker. So it's Spitter + Steward in play against one Initiate. This means that Steward can attack. You can combine your first strike damage with the Dart to kill both of my creatures, but this is on my turn and Bone Picker will win. Blocking with the Initiate just loses resources. You can attack back with the Initiate. I attacked first, so I'm 1 point ahead, but you can Dart to finish, so you're two points ahead, but once you attack with the Initiate, I can start attacking for 2. So I think this is a win, regardless of who starts. 6 points, hopefully
11. Tylert: Forest, Mountain, Bond Beetle, Horned Kavu
Fume Spitter kills the Bond Beetle, and the Steward goes all the way. 6 points
Edit: On the draw, I need to play Steward into Picker (discarding the bounced beetle), then Fume Spitter is enough of a speed bump to win the race. Still 6 points, but not as automatic.
46
I wrote this up before looking at other people's analysis. A few of my longer musings were confirmed. I've highlighted the two differences.
Cards I had to read this round: Esper Stormblade (flying or shroud?), Shamble Back, Grim Initiate (forgot first strike and that it doesn't just automatically make a 1/1). I didn't think double Grim Initiate looked too threatening, but I think it's putting up a very nice 4.2 this week.
3.7 points for a round is definitely an edge over the maximum theoretical average of 3. The 7 rounds so far have had averages of2.63, 2.39, 2.44, 2.32, 2.49, 2.46, and 2.54.2.92, 2.66, 2.71, 2.58, 2.77, 2.74, and 2.82 (had a wrong denominator; divide by 10 to average points, then divide by 9 because you have 9 opponents).
Last edited by silkster; 08-21-2020 at 02:41 PM.
OTD you can't kill the bond beetle t1 since it targets itself. You have to steward t1 and activate + bone picker t2 to get rid of bounced beetle. t3 you can start racing which you will win with the -1/-1 counter and a free chump.
Sounds right to me
Silkster vs GoblinSmashmaster
Spitter / Tigorilla
Bone Picker / 17
Steward. 17 / 14
13 / 11
9 / 8
5 / 5
1 / 2
OTP you're fast enough to race.
OTD GoblinSmashmaster would win the race, and if the Tigorilla has Menace then you have to trade with both creatures to draw.
That looks correct too. If alpha plays Spitter and you play Steward, alpha has no winning lines.
Fume Spitter can't kill 1/2 Bond Beetle when Tylert goes first.11. Tylert: Forest, Mountain, Bond Beetle, Horned Kavu
Fume Spitter kills the Bond Beetle, and the Steward goes all the way. 6 points
T - 1/2 Beetle
S - You're better off playing Steward here.
T - Kavu, returning Beetle
S - Discard Bond Beetle. Bone Picker.
T - 3/4 Kavu attacks [S=17]
S - Fume Spitter. Bone Picker attacks [T=17]
Now you can both attack for 3, but Fume Spitter buys you one chump block and then shrinks it to 2/3, so you still win the race.
I thought I made a relatively simple deck, but seems some of these might need deeper analysis?
H: Mountain, Lava Dart, Grim Initiate, Grim Initiate
1. Asthereal (TO): Khalni Garden, Azorius Chancery, Selesnya Evangel, Esper Stormblade
I think the fact that the taplands slow you down, means I have plenty of time to land both Initiates and then double Dart the Evangel, then First Strike deals neatly with Stormblade. 6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Ferocious Tigorilla
Yeah, not seeing how we don't draw both, since First Strike and Dart deal with that monster. 2-2
3. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Memnite, Mana Skimmer, Culling the Weak
Memnite aside, as was said, I can only work a draw on the Draw, but I can win on the Play. 4-1
4. dte: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Battle Screech, Battle Screech
Hmm, so 4 1/1's vs my two removals and two First Strikers? I think I can win this in both cases. 6-0
5: FTW: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Ornithopter, Kjeldoran Dead
I think FTW has it right, I can discard one Initiate to Cry and Dead isn't too good vs Dart. 6-0
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
This one I am really not sure about. Alpha has me down as winning both, but I am not exactly sure on the lines.
When I am on the Play, I'd Mountain into Initiate, if I Mountain and pass, I don't think I gain anything. Alpha can then Cry and I'd discard Dart, or just play Spitter. In the case of Cry, I play the second Initiate next turn. Now Spitter can come in. I could kill the Spitter with a Dart flashback, but I think that would be bad since then I can't really kill the Zombie. So I'd just attack. Alpha needs the Zombie though, so he would have to kill one Initiate. The question is, can I win that race now, since Shamble Back gains two life? I think since I am on the Play here, the answer might be yes, but only just barely. So then that makes me think that on the Draw, I might just lose. Going to need to really think this out more.
FTW did the alaysis below, looks like 4-1.
7. Wrath of Pie: Khalni Garden, Selesnya Sanctuary, Qasali Pridemage, Selesnya Evangel
I have to Dart the Evangel, which means Pridemage is a problem. I don't think I can race it even on the Play. 0-6
8. maxx!: Swamp, Liliana's Steward, Dead Weight, Shamble Back
I don't think I see a flaw in maxx!'s analysis, since I can discard Dart and still flash it back if Steward gets used. 6-0
9. silkster: Swamp, Fume Spitter, Liliana's Steward, Bone Picker
I think silkster is right, the threat of Bone Picker puts me in an unwinnable position. 0-6
10. H: Bye, myself.
11. Tylert: Forest, Mountain, Bond Beetle, Horned Kavu
I think I win on the Play, since I can Initiate first, then kill the Beetle with Dart, flashback Dart. On the Draw, I can only force a draw. 4-1
Maybe 38? Still not exactly sure about vs. Alpha though.
Last edited by H; 08-21-2020 at 01:50 PM.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That adds up to me, for some reason I didn't play out me OTP with you leading on Steward. Updating results.
8 1/1s after flashback! The deck is strong undisrupted. The problem is a single discard spell reduces that to 2 1/1s (both flashbacks are turned off).
If you double Dart the first 2 birds, you can turn off flashback and then race 2 1/1s.
You don't have to race. Dart + First Strike is powerful. You can keep 1 creature on defense and attack for 1 first strike with the other. If he blocks, flashback Lava Dart kills the blocker and your guy lives. If he attacks a 2/2 into a 1/1 Army, flashback Dart trades with it. He can never deal you damage or stop your attacker.
8 1/1s are unimpressive, the real trick is that they fly.
T3 you are attacking into a deathtouch bone picker... Its a simpler win to just trade the 3 power dudes and then you have a 1/1 vs nothing
Hi, and thanks for the welcomes!
I played Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Battle Screech, Battle Screech, which turned out to be too often easily disrupted. I thought it was powerful and did not care about blockers or a single removal, but it does very poorly vs mana denial, double removal and single discard.
Coming late makes it easy to count :)
1. Asthereal (TO): Khalni Garden, Azorius Chancery, Selesnya Evangel, Esper Stormblade
WW, 6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Ferocious Tigorilla
WW, 6-0
3. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Memnite, Mana Skimmer, Culling the Weak
LL, 0-6
4. dte: Remote Farm, Remote Farm, Battle Screech, Battle Screech
Me
5: FTW: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Ornithopter, Kjeldoran Dead
LL, 0-6
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Cry of Contrition, Fume Spitter, Shamble Back
LL, 0-6
7. Wrath of Pie: Khalni Garden, Selesnya Sanctuary, Qasali Pridemage, Selesnya Evangel
WW, 6-0
8. maxx!: Swamp, Liliana's Steward, Dead Weight, Shamble Back
LL, 0-6
9. silkster: Swamp, Fume Spitter, Liliana's Steward, Bone Picker
LL, 0-6
10. H: Mountain, Lava Dart, Grim Initiate, Grim Initiate
LL, 0-6
11. Tylert: Forest, Mountain, Bond Beetle, Horned Kavu
WW, 6-0
Not a single draw, or WL, only 6-0 or 0-6.
So that should be 24 (4x 6-0, 6x 0-6).
Oh, yeah, I totally blanked on the Flashback and was thinking it was an alternate casting cost which it obvious isn't when you read the card, like I did but obviously didn't, haha. But yeah, Dart still seems pretty good since I can get down both Initiates before I need to use it.
Hmm, so that should work on the Draw though?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Good question.
A - Cry of Contrition, discarding Lava Dart
H - Grim Initiate
A - Fume Spitter
H - Attack with Grim Initiate, forcing Fume Spitter to kill it. 1/1 Army. 2nd Initiate.
A - Shamble Back making 2/2
H - Now you can attack with 1 Initiate and leave the other to defend. If the 2/2 either attacks or blocks, it dies to first strike + flashback Dart, so you win.
That line does work on the draw. But A doesn't have to Cry first. A can build towards double Cry.
A - Fume Spitter
H - Grim Initiate
A - Double Cry of Contrition, with Fume Spitter killing the Initiate. Create a 1/1 Army and discard both Lava Dart and the 2nd Initiate.
Then Shamble Back makes a 2/2 that beats a 1/1 Army
This line is bad for you. You need to stop the double Cry.
A - Fume Spitter
H - Lava Dart the Spitter, to prevent double Cry
A - Cry of Contrition, discarding an Initiate
H - other Initiate
A - Shamble Back, making a 2/2.
H - Initiate + flashback Dart beats the 2/2, but if A avoids combat the Initiate can't race so this would draw.
draw
Looks like you draw OTD.
OTP you can play both Initiates under double Cry, so you don't have to play around it and can just win.
WD 4-1?
Last edited by FTW; 08-21-2020 at 05:32 PM.
@FTW thanks for playing that out, makes sense to me - will update my results yet again :)
Thanks, I will update, sorry this week I have just been lacking more time to do better analysis.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I was just lying in bed thinking about how Bond Beetle would have been better as a 2-toughness creature when I realized that it can give the counter to itself, so it IS a 2-toughness creature. I then spent a few minutes finding this line and came to post it, but found that it's already been posted. Thanks!
I'm still surprised that the Grim Initiates did so well. Not that they're bad, because they're clearly not. In fact, a slew of 1/1s with some light removal that can combine with combat damage to take down larger creatures was my first successful deck. But somehow, when I looked at these guys I didn't think much of it. I guess I'm trying to find out how my initial impression was so off so that I can learn from it. Lava Dart is a known quantity that I've had on my shortlist for a while, but it never seemed quite good enough. I guess that changed now that most of the bigger creatures are gone. Well chosen!
Last edited by silkster; 08-21-2020 at 04:07 PM.
I think it was just a really good meta deck. 4 bodies and 2 removal spells pair up really well against attrition decks, and most of us played those. With the dies triggers and flashback, you can't get ahead by trading 1-for-1s. Lava Dart is also very strong against strategies like Quirion Ranger and Sparksmith that didn't see play this week but could have. First strike + Lava Dart is also a nice interaction. GoblinSmashmaster can't even smash through with a 4/3.
Now that land destruction is banned and the big 1-drop fatties are banned, most things it would lose to are out, so that helps too.
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