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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #1821

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Moosedog View Post
    I guess I'm missing something, but the nexus does not retain the counters. So I can kill the nexus with the megaliths - not race it. And I can wait and activate ravine once adding 17 counters for one attack.
    It does retain the counters, actually.

  2. #1822
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Moosedog View Post
    I guess I'm missing something, but the nexus does not retain the counters. So I can kill the nexus with the megaliths - not race it. And I can wait and activate ravine once adding 17 counters for one attack.
    Nexus will absolutely keep counters placed on it, despite not being a Creature the whole time. There are even lands that have +1/+1 counters "naturally" like Llanowar Reborn. The same goes for counters that Ravine gains.
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  3. #1823
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    So I was missing something. Learned something new today. Thanks. Will edit my post.

    And FTW - I believe I have a line where I can force a draw. I edited my first post to walk through it.

  4. #1824

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    But you have Hangarback Walker beatdown while Overseer grows both. Shouldn't that help, at least OTP?

    If they block and trade (or even block with bigger and kill you), you get 1/1 flying tokens to stop Blinkmoth beatdown. Tokens + Overseer should be a win for you, so they can't let Walker die. That means you can keep attacking every turn with a growing Walker and have it unblocked, so is that any faster than Blinkmoth?

    The math is complicated but there must be some wins there, especially against Memnite.
    The issue is that they can (and should) cast both threats, so they can attack me back for more damage thanks to having a manland.

  5. #1825
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Moosedog View Post
    I guess I'm missing something, but the nexus does not retain the counters. So I can kill the nexus with the megaliths - not race it. And I can wait and activate ravine once adding 17 counters for one attack.
    Actually, Blinkmoth Nexus does retain the +1/+1 counters.
    Your Raging Ravine wouldn't work properly if manlands wouldn't retain counters.

    EDIT: You guys are fast tonight.

    EDIT2: I read about the plan for Wrath against the Overseer decks to pump Walker and use it to attack. If it dies, he might get many tokens.
    I did some math in my results post (previous page). My double Overseer deck also double-pumps my Nexus, so I'm fast enough by the looks of it.
    It's a good plan though against the other almost-mirrors. Should do some more math there to see if Wrath can win some games there.
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  6. #1826

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Against Tylert Revoker names Hangarback Walker, and it creates the same problem of three bodies vs. two bodies. I can never actually attack with Hangarback because I will easily lose the race, while Nexus beatdown gets me.

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Against Tylert Revoker names Hangarback Walker, and it creates the same problem of three bodies vs. two bodies. I can never actually attack with Hangarback because I will easily lose the race, while Nexus beatdown gets me.
    Oh god, i Forgot that :) I thought the loss of tempo of casting revoker was too high...
    Ok so I keep the same score.

  8. #1828
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    FTW and Moosedog: you have different outcomes for your games in your score posts.
    Can you guys check eachother's lines and find out what the final scores should be?


    Your combined plans amount to this:

    F: Urborg, Affliction
    M: Ravine
    F: Muta (summoning sickness), wait for second land by M
    M: Reaches
    F: Cast Smallpox, M=19, F=19, sac Urb, M sacs Ravine and discards Megaliths
    M: M=16, play Blast Zone, Reaches c=1
    F: wait
    M: M=13, Reaches c=2
    F: wait
    M: M=10, Reaches c=3
    F: wait
    M: M=7, use Blast Zone to destroy Affliction FTD

    So that's two draws unless I'm missing something.
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  9. #1829
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Yes, the draw makes sense to me.

    And I have a follow up question about the counters remaining on lands. What would happen in this scenario? I have a blinkmoth that is pumped with pendelhaven, and it is blocked by an inkmoth and receives an infect counter. So at end of turn it loses pendelhaven and also stops being a creature, so the land does not die but retains the -1/-1 counter? So if I went to reactivate blinkmoth next turn it would immediately die before I could pump with pendelhaven?

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Moosedog View Post
    Yes, the draw makes sense to me.

    And I have a follow up question about the counters remaining on lands. What would happen in this scenario? I have a blinkmoth that is pumped with pendelhaven, and it is blocked by an inkmoth and receives an infect counter. So at end of turn it loses pendelhaven and also stops being a creature, so the land does not die but retains the -1/-1 counter? So if I went to reactivate blinkmoth next turn it would immediately die before I could pump with pendelhaven?
    No, it would die by the time you got priority to activate your Pendelhaven.

    The key is is that SBA (state based actions) are checked whenever anyone would gain priority, but before they actually do gain priority.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  11. #1831
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Preliminary standings for round 7:

    Rank. Player: Score - SP
    1. Asthereal (TO): 22 - 4,4
    2. FTW: 18 - 3,6
    3. Tylert: 16 - 3,2
    3. H: 16 - 3,2
    5. Wrath of Pie: 6 - 1,2
    6. Moosedog: 2 - 0,4

    Which leads to the banning of:
    Blinkmoth Nexus, Quicksand and [cards]Steel Overseer/[cards]

    And season standings look like this:
    1. Asthereal (TO): 27,8
    2. FTW: 18,7
    3. Tylert: 18,3
    4. Wrath of Pie: 16,4
    5. H: 15,5
    6. Moosedog: 3,4

    FTW continues his climb and has now claimed second place.
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  12. #1832
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    ROUND 8 of SEASON 5: MODERN MADNESS has started.

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 8, so you can start sending me your decks.

    DEADLINE: Wednesday the 4th of March, at 11:00AM Central European Time.
    (That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)

    PLEASE NOTE:
    The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Swamp, Mountain, Blightspeaker, Combust (so with card tags around each card, and not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S05R07 in the topic.
    Many of you already do this. Thanks a lot, this really saves me a lot of time and hassle of copying and pasting text and tags!
    Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. It will grow every round. You'll find the banned list in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Also, if you've been lurking on this thread and looking to join, you can step in anytime, any round. That's no problem at all. Just send me your deck before the deadline, and I'll add you to the competition.

    Happy deck designing everybody!
    Join the 4 Card Blind competition!

  13. #1833
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    About 24 hours until the deadline, and we're at 4 entries. Don't forget to send your deck!
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  14. #1834
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Deadline has passed and it looks like I have everybody, so here we go:

    DECKS FOR ROUND 8 OF SEASON 5: MODERN MADNESS

    1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Selesnya Sanctuary, Loxodon Smiter, Knight of Autumn
    2. Moosedog: Plains, Pendelhaven, Basilisk Collar, Adanto Vanguard
    3. Tylert: Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Elixir of Immortality, Abrupt Decay
    4. Wrath of Pie: Mage-Ring Network, Urza's Factory, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista
    5. H: Forest, Gilded Goose, Island, Oko, Thief of Crowns
    6. FTW: Inspiring Vantage, Spirebluff Canal, Stromkirk Noble, Meddling Mage

    Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
    I'll update the Google Spreadsheet for the season, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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  15. #1835
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Asthereal scores for round 8:

    1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Selesnya Sanctuary, Loxodon Smiter, Knight of Autumn
    That's me, sporting a heavily meta'd deck that should still be able to function on its own. And of course nobody plays FTW's deck from last round...
    2. Moosedog: Plains, Pendelhaven, Basilisk Collar, Adanto Vanguard
    Knight can destroy the Collar. You can attack for 4, and if you do, I can attack for 7. But you dan't have to. Math below: one win, one draw. 1-4
    3. Tylert: Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Elixir of Immortality, Abrupt Decay
    Decay will kill all my dudes. I can't destroy Elixir with Knight because you'll use it before I can. We can trade Villages, but you get yours back. 0-6
    4. Wrath of Pie: Mage-Ring Network, Urza's Factory, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista
    Wow, this will require some math. I haven't calculated every line yet, but it looks like I'm fast enough. Preliminary calcs below. 6-0
    5. H: Forest, Gilded Goose, Island, Oko, Thief of Crowns
    A 3/3 per turn and I have no way to stop it. That's not going to fly. 0-6
    6. FTW: Inspiring Vantage, Spirebluff Canal, Stromkirk Noble, Meddling Mage
    Mage stops one of my 4/X guys, I cast the other and trade with Noble, then Village stops Mage. OTP I'm fast enough to attack FTW, OTD I have to defend. 4-1

    Total: 11 poins


    EDIT Against Moosedog
    Vanguard costs two mana. Need to redo this completely...

    OTD
    M: Plains, Colla
    A: Village
    M: Haven, cast Vanguard
    A: Sanctuary, bounce Village
    M: Equip (or not, probably doesn't matter), attack for 3, A=17, M=23
    A: Village (tapped)
    M: Attack for 4, A=13, M=27
    A: Cast Knight, destroy Collar
    M: Attack for 4, block with knight, you pay 4, M=23, Knight dies
    A: Cast Smiter
    M: Attack for 4, A=9
    A: Will still lose the race here.

    OTP
    A: Village (tapped)
    M: Plains, Collar
    A: Sanctuary, bounce Village
    M: Haven, cast Vanguard
    A: Village (tapped)
    M: Equip (or not, probably doesn't matter as it allows me to cast Smiter first), attack for 3, A=17, M=23
    A: Cast Knight, destroy Collar
    M: Attack for 4, block with knight, you pay 4, M=19, Knight dies
    A: Cast Smiter
    M: Attack for 4, A=13
    A: Attack for 7, M=12
    M: Attack for 4, A=5
    A: Attack for 7, M=5
    So M will lose the race. Conclusion: M can't attack when on the draw and has to defend.


    Against Wrath

    W: Land
    A: Village (t)
    W: Land, cast Walker
    A: Sanct, bounce Village
    W: Tick up Walker HW=2/2
    A: Village (t)
    W: Tick up Walker HW=3/3
    A: Cast Knight, kill Walker, you get 3 1/1 tokens
    W: Cast Ballista, attack for 3, A=17
    A: Cast Smiter, attack for 2, W=18
    W: Network=1, attack for 2?
    I think I'm fast enough.


    Against FTW

    OTD
    F: Noble
    A: Village (t)
    F: Mage (Smiter), att, A=19, N=2/2
    A: Sanct, bounce Village
    F: att both, A=15, N=3/3
    A: Village (t)
    F: att both, A=11, N=4/4
    A: Cast Knight as 4/3
    F: att with Noble, block and trade
    A: Now I can't attack as I'm a 7 turn clock and you're a 6 turn clock.

    OTP
    A: Village (t)
    F: Noble
    A: Sanct, bounce Village
    F: Mage (Smiter), att, A=19, N=2/2
    A: Village (t)
    F: att both, A=15, N=3/3
    A: Cast Knight as 4/3
    F: Wait and defend. You now have a 3 turn clock with both, 8 turn clock with just Mage.
    A: I now have a 3 turn clock if both go through, 5 turn with just Knight, 7 with Village.
    So I attack with just Knight. If you block with Noble, they trade and I win. If you don't and attack next turn, I'll trade Village for Noble and still win.

    So OTP I'm fast enough. OTD not. 4-1
    Last edited by Asthereal; 03-04-2020 at 09:17 AM.
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  16. #1836
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Damn.

    My deck would have been so much better with assassin's trophy instead of Abrupt decay :)

    1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Selesnya Sanctuary, Loxodon Smiter, Knight of Autumn
    2. Moosedog: Plains, Pendelhaven, Basilisk Collar, Adanto Vanguard
    3. Tylert: Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Elixir of Immortality, Abrupt Decay
    4. Wrath of Pie: Mage-Ring Network, Urza's Factory, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista
    5. H: Forest, Gilded Goose, Island, Oko, Thief of Crowns
    6. FTW: Inspiring Vantage, Spirebluff Canal, Stromkirk Noble, Meddling Mage

    1. Asthereal: Not fast enough to stop the recursion. I will kill your dudes and trade treetops eventually to get it back. 6-0 --> 6
    2. Moosedog: Vanguard + Pendelhaven = 4 damage per turn, so one less than elixir. I destroy collar first, then i Recur elixir every turn to gain 5 life until I have an arbitrary large amount of life, then i start pointing abrupt decay at knight every two turns to make you loose 4 life every two turns and finish the job with treetop. 6-0 --> 12

    OTP: T1 = Treetop. plains, collar.
    T2 = RotFarm. pendhelhaven, vanguard.
    T3 = treetop, Abrupt decay the collar. Attack (M16)
    T4 = Elixir, use elixir (M21). attack (M17)
    T5 = draw decay. Attack (M13).
    T6 = Draw elixir, elixir, use elixir (M18). attack (M14)
    T7 = Draw elixir, elixir, use elixir (M19). attack (M15).
    T8 = ....

    OTD: T1 = plains, collar. Treetop
    T2 = pendhelhaven, vanguard. RotFarm.
    T3 = Equip collar Attack (M16, Y20). Abrupt decay the collar.
    T4 = attack (M12). Elixir, use elixir (M17).
    T5 = Attack (M13). Draw decay.
    T6 = Attack (M9). Draw elixir, play elixir, use elixir (M14)
    T7 = Attack (M10). Draw elixir, play elixir, use elixir (M15)
    T8 = ...
    3. Me.
    4. Wrath of Pie: I kill Walker as soon as i see it, and i think I'll have enough time to kill balissta after that. I can then recur decay to kill the tokens produced by the factory every 8 turns and still win. 6-0 --> 18
    5. H: Decay kills Oko, then goose and i win with treetop. 6-0 --> 24
    6. FTW: You block decay with mage. OTP: I can stop noble before it goes over 2 counters, and draw by not doing anything. OTP: I'm one turn too slow and noble will become big enough to overpower elixir recursion. 1-4 --> 25
    OTP: T1 = Treetop. Vantage, Noble.
    T2 = Rotfarm. Canal, Mage naming decay, att (M19 N1)
    T3 = Treetop, elixir. Att (M15 N2).
    T4 = I don't do anything. If you attack with noble, I trade and can start recuring elixir to gain an arbitrary large amount of life (5 per turn, compared to the 2 per turn you'll deal to me and win with treetop). If you don't, we draw because you can't attack and i can't keep treetop up and use elixir at the same time. so draw.

    OTD: T1 = Vantage, Noble.
    T2 = Canal, Mage naming decay, att (M19 N1). rotfarm.
    T3 = Att (M15 N2). Treetop, elixir.
    T4 = Att (M10 N3). Noble can start attacking freely and will do more damage than i can prevent / recur at some point... loss.

    25 points. In the end Abrupt decay or assassin's trophy would have been the same :)

  17. #1837
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Against Moosedog
    OTD
    M: Plains, Vanguard
    A: Village
    M: Haven, tap Plains to cast Collar, use Haven, attack for 4, A=16
    A: Sanctuary, bounce Village
    M: Equip (or not, probably doesn't matter), attack for 3, A=13, M=23
    A: Village (tapped)
    M: Attack for 4, A=9, M=27
    A: Cast Knight, destroy Collar
    M: Attack for 4, block with knight, you pay 4, M=23, Knight dies
    A: Cast Smiter
    M: Attack for 4, A=5
    A: Will lose the race here.

    OTP
    A: Village (tapped)
    M: Plains, Vanguard
    A: Sanctuary, bounce Village
    M: Haven, tap Plains to cast Collar, use Haven, attack for 4, A=16
    A: Village (tapped)
    M: Equip (or not, probably doesn't matter), attack for 3, A=13, M=23
    A: Cast Knight, destroy Collar
    M: Attack for 4, block with knight, you pay 4, M=19, Knight dies
    A: Cast Smiter
    M: Attack for 4, A=9
    A: Attack for 7, M=12
    M: Attack for 4, A=5
    A: Attack for 7, M=5
    So M will lose the race. Conclusion: M can't attack when on the draw and has to defend.
    Against Moosedog, Vanguard cost 1W. so review your math :)

  18. #1838
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    6. FTW: Inspiring Vantage, Spirebluff Canal, Stromkirk Noble, Meddling Mage

    1. Asthereal (TO): OTP I play Noble. You play tapped land. I play Meddling Mage naming Smiter and Noble becomes 2/2. You play tapped Sanctuary, returning Village. Noble becomes 3/3 [A=15]. You play tapped Village. Noble becomes 4/4 [A=10]. You play Knight of Autumn as a 4/3. Now you're forced on defense to draw.
    OTD you play Village, I play Noble. You play Sanctuary, I play Mage naming Smiter and Noble becomes 2/2 [A=19]. You play tapped Village. Noble becomes 3/3 [A=15]. You play Knight of Autumn as a 4/3. I decline the trade and don't attack. Can I force a draw here because I'm ahead in life? You can't let me get through with Noble.
    For now LD 1-4

    2. Moosedog: OTP I play Noble. You play Collar. I play Mage naming Vanguard and that's game.
    OTD you play Collar, I play Noble. You play Vanguard. I play Mage naming Assassin's Trophy. You can equip the Collar and race me.
    WL 3-3

    3. Tylert: OTP I play Noble. You play Village. I play Mage naming Decay and grow to 2/2 [T=19]. You play Elixir and Farm. Attack and grow to 3/3 [T=15]. You play Village tapped. Attack and grow to 4/4 [T=10]. 4/4 Noble is too big for you to stop or race with lifegain.
    OTD you play Village, I play Noble. You play Elixir and Farm, I Mage Decay and grow to 2/2 [T=19]. You play Village tapped. Noble grows to 3/3 [T=15]. You can't race with Village, so you leave up Village to block and pass. You could block and trade, then activate Elixir on your upkeep to gain 5 and get back Village, so I can't race you that way.
    WD 4-1

    4. Wrath of Pie: OTP I play Noble. You play a land. I play Mage naming Walker and grow to 2/2 [W=19]. It takes you 5 turns to add a counter to Ballista, or 3 turns to cast Ballista as X=2, either way you're way too slow to handle Noble.
    OTD you play a land, I play Noble. You could play Ballista X=1 to trade with Noble, but then I play Mage naming Hangarback Walker and win, so instead you play Hangarback Walker X=1. I play Mage naming Ballista and attack with 1/1 Noble. I think your optimal line is to let Noble through a few times and grow Walker. Eventually Noble is 5/5 and you can block and trade as a 5/5, making 5 Thopters to win.
    WL 3-3

    5. H: OTP I play Noble. You play Goose. I play Mage naming Oko and win.
    OTD you play Oko first. Goose is tapped and you have no food, so you probably need to Elk my Noble before it gets counters (which don't get removed if you Elk it later). I play Mage and attack Oko (Oko=2). Goose makes a Food and you Elk it (Oko=3). Now I can't kill Oko and I lose.
    WL 3-3

    14 points (4 wins, 2 draws)

  19. #1839
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    25 points. In the end Abrupt decay or assassin's trophy would have been the same :)
    Nice deck!

    I noticed Elixir was still unbanned and was afraid of Elixir loops, that's why I played Meddling Mage :)

  20. #1840
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    H: Forest, Gilded Goose, Island, Oko, Thief of Crowns

    1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Selesnya Sanctuary, Loxodon Smiter, Knight of Autumn
    I think I can make enough 3/3's to hold down the fort, since the Sanctuary slows you down some. 6-0

    2. Moosedog: Plains, Pendelhaven, Basilisk Collar, Adanto Vanguard
    Vanguard can only hit Oko the first time for 5, which leave him at one loyalty if I make a Food. From there, I can make a chump blocker every turn until I have 6 loyalty and then steal the Vanguard in exchange for a Food. 6-0

    3. Tylert: Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Elixir of Immortality, Abrupt Decay
    Can't do much here. 0-6

    4. Wrath of Pie: Mage-Ring Network, Urza's Factory, Hangarback Walker, Walking Ballista
    This one is more complicated, because of how +1/+1 counters work.

    On the Play:
    T1 H: Forest, Goose, Food.
    T1 W: Land.

    T2 H: Island, sac Food, Oko, make Food [6 loyalty].
    T2 W: Here, if Wrath plays Hangerback, I can just steal it, then there is likely no way Ballista can race either. So, I think Ballista must be the play. So, other Land, Ballista [1 counter].

    T3 H: I can't steal Ballista now, since it can ping in response, then Hangerback certainly beats Goose. It is unclear if making a 3/3 is the way to go, or if making Food is better. Let us try making a 3/3. Make a Food with Goose, make it a 3/3, Oko [7 Loyalty].
    T3 W: Ballista can't attack, ping won't do anything. If Wrath plays Hangerback, I could steal it and again, that is not a race that could be won, so it would have to be pinged with Ballista, but that loses the game too. So, I think the "answer" must be to charge up the Network, if anything is to work. Network [1 charge].

    T4 H: Actually, I think I just win here, because Oko has 7 Loyalty, so making a Food and Steal the Ballista is now an option, since a ping would kill the Ballista, but not Oko.

    I don't know that being on the Draw changes this really, since Goose can block Ballista and if Wrath pings to kill Goose, Oko is still unchecked.

    Tentative 6-0.

    5. H: Bye, myself.

    6. FTW: Inspiring Vantage, Spirebluff Canal, Stromkirk Noble, Meddling Mage
    I win on the Play, lose to Mage on the Draw. 3-3

    21, maybe?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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