Then let me play universal solvent instead of mammoth :)Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Did you happen to look at my analysis? I'm really not sure at all I can win on my Play, so I think you should win both.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Emperor Crocodile has a drawback! Knew I missed something, that makes it much easier for me to win.
Did you see my comment? Firebolt is a sorcery, so Firebolt + 3 tokens are unable to kill the croc. Vine Trellis is also a 0/4, so it will not die to blocking a 1/1+shock. Firebolt is basically dead except to the dome.
Wrath needs 5 1/1s to trade with Croc, but you also get to build up to your 3/3s while that's happening. This race is not obvious.
T1 Grove / Vitu
T2 1c / Garrison
T3 2c / Vitu
T4 Trellis / Farm
T5 1c / Vitu - 1 token
T6 2c / 2 tokens
T7 3c / 3 tokens, attack with 2, 1 gets through [H=19]
T8 Croc / 4 tokens, no profitable attacks
T9 1c, attack with Croc / 5 tokens, hold back to trade [H=19, W=15]
T10 2c, hold Croc / 6 tokens, hold back to trade
T11 3c, hold Croc / 7 tokens, hold back to trade
T12 Croc trades with 5 tokens / 3 tokens, no profitable attacks into EOT 3/3 Ambush
T13 1c, hold elephant / 4 tokens
T14 2c, hold elephant / 5 tokens
At this point Wrath will reach enough tokens before the slow Ambush flashback
What if Elephant Ambush is played first instead?
T1 Grove / Vitu
T2 1c / Garrison
T3 2c / Vitu
T4 3c / Farm
T5 4c / Vitu - 1 token
T6 Ambush / 2 tokens, no profitable attacks
T7 1c, attack with elephant / 3 tokens, hold back to trade [W=17]
T8 2c / 4 tokens
T9 3c / 5 tokens
T10 4c / 6 tokens
T11 Croc / 7 tokens
T12 1c, no profitable attacks / 8 tokens
T13 2c / 9 tokens
Croc is too slow here too
What if they're both played on the same turn?
T1 Grove / Vitu
T2 1c / Garrison
T3 2c / Vitu
T4 3c / Farm
T5 4c / Vitu - 1 token
T6 hold / 2 tokens, no attack in case Ambush, EOT 5c
T7 hold / 3 tokens, no attack in case Ambush, EOT 6c
T8 hold / 4 tokens, no attack in case Ambush, EOT 7c
T9 hold / 5 tokens, no attack in case Ambush, EOT 8c
T10 Ambush + Croc / 6 tokens
T11 1c, Croc trades with 5 tokens / 2 tokens
T12 2c, elephant attacks / 3 tokens, hold to trade [W=17]
T13 3c, no profitable attacks / 4 tokens
T14 4c / 5 tokens
Wrath wins this too
WW Wrath
maxx!: Forest, Glistener Elf, Invigorate, Scale Up
Disagreement with alpha, I think you've got me in both games.
1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla
OTP I T2 you. OTD you can play Rootwalla turn 1 to block. I Scale Up before attacking, you chump so you don't die. I get in 1 attack before you land Raiders. After that, I can't handle both of your threats and I can't race. If I attack, you can just opt to race and win by a turn. If I sit back, you can attack with your 2/2 only, force me to use my Invigorate blocking, and then Treetop races me. 3-3
2. jhhdk: Plains, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Flickering Ward
I can't beat this at all. OTP you chump my Scaled Up T2 attack, then play your second Trailblazer. It takes me 6 unblocked attacks to kill you, but it only takes you 3 turns to get your Trailblazer up to 2/6. At that size, I can't attack into it, so you can spend as long as you need pumping it to 20 power with pro-green to kill me. 0-6
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Putrid Imp, Reanimate, Faultgrinder
Yeesh. OTP you can chump with the Imp, and then on your second turn Faultgrinder takes out my Forest, shutting off Invigorate. I can't beat a 4/4 with a 1/1. 0-6
4. dte: Hickory Woodlot, island, Squirrel Nest, Wistful thinking
OTP I poison you T2. OTD you Wistful me T2. 3-3
5. Reeplcheep: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Ulamog's Crusher, Strider Harness
This would be 3-3 if Ulamog's Crusher was legal. 6-0?
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Inquisition of Kozilek, Plagued Rusalka, Hired Poisoner
OTP you get a deathtouch blocker that I can't attack into, then Inquisition me. I think you should take Invigorate. Scale Up is a Sorcery, and I can't ever attack into Hired Poisoner. Then you attack me to death with Plague Rusalka. I either block and trade, letting you kill me with your other 1/1, or just take it until I'm dead. 0-6
7. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Emperor Crocodile
Rushwood Grove can't ever make mana before you're dead. 6-0
8. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Boros Garrison, Golgari Rot Farm, Firebolt
You can't make R fast enough to Firebolt my Elf. 6-0
9. maxx!: Forest, Glistener Elf, Invigorate, Scale Up
This is me :]
10. FTW: Wind-Scarred Crag, Ancient Tomb, Stone Rain, Porcelain Legionnaire
OTP you can make a blocker in time, but then you die to Elf beats because you have no other threats or removal. OTD you can Stone Rain me before I attack, and then your Legionnaire races my Elf. 3-3
11. Tylert: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Honey Mammoth
OTP the Elf gets you. OTD you make your Eldrazi, but then immediately have to block and my 10/8 trades with your 8/9. 4-1
12. silkster: Island, Ancient Tomb, Aven Eternal, Wistful Thinking
OTP I poison you T2. OTD you Wistful me T2. 3-3
3+0+0+3+6+0+6+6+3+4+3 = 34, or 31 if Reep gets to play a different card
I was hoping to see a lot of storage lands and Treetop Villages this round, since Village had the best performing decks that didn't get banned last round, and a storage land deck won. Turns out everyone had the same idea to just play fast combo now that FoW is gone.
I kept thinking Invigorate cost 4 and I could not Inquisition it. Agree that I win both since I can take it. Updating my results.
I don't think I've ever seen Invigorate's mana cost paid, so it's a reasonable mistake :)
Whoops, that's what I get for thinking I knew what that card was. Seems I had the right conclusion for the wrong reason though.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
The Round of Turn-Two Combo
Me: silkster: Island, Ancient Tomb, Aven Eternal, Wistful Thinking
1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla
It's hilarious that I actually cast the Rootwalla for you. On your play, you have enough mana to pump it and the temp to apply pressure, so I must trade. WD
4 points
2. jhhdk: Plains, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Flickering Ward
[cards]You get to make a 1/4, which isn't good enough.[/strike] WL
3 points
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Putrid Imp, Reanimate, Faultgrinder
Turn 2 combo decks go WL.
3 points
4. dte: Hickory Woodlot, island, Squirrel Nest, Wistful thinking
Great minds! WL
3 points
5. Reeplcheep: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Ulamog's Crusher, Strider Harness
WL
6 points, sad Crusher
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Inquisition of Kozilek, Plagued Rusalka, Hired Poisoner
You take my threat for the draw, and sneak in a threat on the play. DL
1 point
7. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Emperor Crocodile
Flashback comes too late. WW
6 points
8. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Boros Garrison, Golgari Rot Farm, Firebolt
6 points
9. maxx!: Forest, Glistener Elf, Invigorate, Scale Up
I almost submitted this deck. More WL against turn 2 combo.
3 points
10. FTW: Wind-Scarred Crag, Ancient Tomb, Stone Rain, Porcelain Legionnaire
I also almost submitted a Stone Rain deck. I thought LD would be popular, but it loses so hard to Aether Vial. I tried to make Pillage work, but the double red was too tough. Being able to play your threat on turn 1 is really good though. Darn. LL
0 points
11. Tylert: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Honey Mammoth
More turn 2 WL.
3 points
38 points, maybe. I wrote this up and then started reading the others and realized I was losing a bunch more than I thought I was. I wonder if dte has the exact same score. Edit: nope. :(
Well, that went pretty much as expected. I was a little worried about potential DL against Wasteland, but I thought the depths to which we've scraped for 1-drops might leave nothing left to pair it with. Even if I knew what everyone else would be playing, I'm not sure I could have done much better, or at least not without carefully checking which of you does the best and likely just copying that. There were two other decks that I've been considering since round 4, and I'm sad to realize that I won't get to play both of them. It turns out that one was getting ~42 and I think the other was getting 6 this round. Maybe I should have gone for the fun one, but it really benefited from a few specifics this round that I couldn't rely on. Safe is safe. Edit: except it wasn't that safe, cause I lose to more than I thought. Safe is Safe-ish. Though it turns out I should have just played the Wasteland myself. And now it looks like the deck I've been most looking forward to is being banned. :(
The Ulamog's Crusher -> Hand of Emrakul is awkward. I'm fine with it because it affects me and dte the same. I'd probably feel a bit salty if the result hurt me, cause who knows if the fallback was Hand or Devastator? It's even worse for Universal Solvent. There are just too many things that it could have been, like equipment, Legionnaire, Tracer, or a dozen other things.
Last edited by silkster; 12-17-2020 at 04:25 PM.
Indeed the turn 2 round!
Or the round of the easy maths :)
1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla
6-0. Squirrels > rootwalla
6
2. jhhdk: Plains, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Flickering Ward
6-0. Wistful thinking take the game.
12
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Putrid Imp, Reanimate, Faultgrinder
3-3. 2 turn 2 decks mirror :) In my gauntlet I used striped riverwinder to save a card, and it was never good enough. This is definitely better.
15
4. dte: Hickory Woodlot, island, Squirrel Nest, Wistful thinking
me
5. Reeplcheep: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Ulamog's Crusher, Strider Harness
6-0 or 3-3, depending? I'll write 6 for now, but perfectly fine with the switch.
21
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Inquisition of Kozilek, Plagued Rusalka, Hired Poisoner
1-4. T1 discard>T2 deck.
22
7. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Emperor Crocodile
6-0. T2>lategame
28
8. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Boros Garrison, Golgari Rot Farm, Firebolt
6-0. Wistful thinking.
34
9. maxx!: Forest, Glistener Elf, Invigorate, Scale Up
3-3. More T2 mirrors.
37
10. FTW: Wind-Scarred Crag, Ancient Tomb, Stone Rain, Porcelain Legionnaire
3-3. T2 mirror, and multi squirrel > legionnaire.
40
11. Tylert: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Honey Mammoth
3-3, whether it is Honey mammoth or universal solvent.
43
12. silkster: Island, Ancient Tomb, Aven Eternal, Wistful Thinking
3-3. Thinking alike! Funnily enough, I came there by starting with hickory + nest, not through thinking first.
46
That was the most T2 combo round we played so far I guess, with 7/12 decks going for the strategy. I am actually surprised alphastryx's deck being the only T1 control deck did not perform better.
I'm fine if everyone else is ok...
No no no... I was joking (And this card is useless in my deck also).
I would like to, but the issue here is that the Channel decks from previous rounds were playing Eldrazi Devastator, and since decks have been posted already you could have chosen between Devastator and Hand of Emrakul and picked the one that scores better. If it was a clear typo or mistake where it was obvious which card you wanted to play, I could have offered the change, but in this case I don't think it's possible anymore, unfortunately.
For instance: last round you submitted Temple Familiar, which isn't a card. I caught that just in time, and found that the only sensible card you could have meant to play there was Judge's Familiar.
That's a change I can easily make, because there's only one Temple or Familiar card in blue that costs one mana, so you obviously wanted to play Judge's Familiar.
In fact, I didn't even ask you. I just posted your deck with Judge's Familiar instead.
But if I hadn't changed it, and we were to have a discussion there, I could have changed your deck without issue because of these reasons.
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Asthereal's scores for round oops many broken things I forgot about and naively playing just three dudes is probably rather bad.
1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla
That's me. This seemed strong in a grindy meta. Too bad we didn't get one.
2. jhhdk: Plains, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Flickering Ward
Math. I'll math later. Then I mathed and saw how bad this was. You have a 2/6 before I can get you below 15. I'll chalk up 0-6 here.
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Putrid Imp, Reanimate, Faultgrinder
Blowing up my slow land seems pretty good. 0-6
4. dte: Hickory Woodlot, island, Squirrel Nest, Wistful thinking
The Nest surely beats my anti-discard tech which I totally added as anti-discard tech because I'm psychic. 0-6
5. Reeplcheep: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Ulamog's Crusher, Strider Harness
Sorry I missed the illegality of Crusher before posting decks. 6-0
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Inquisition of Kozilek, Plagued Rusalka, Hired Poisoner
Well, I did choose a deck that poops quite hard on Inquisition. Still, it makes my Raiders only be 2/2, but the Rootwalla and Village do work here for the wins. 6-0
7. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Emperor Crocodile
Yay my slow deck is faster than another deck. 6-0
8. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Boros Garrison, Golgari Rot Farm, Firebolt
I'm too fast again. 6-0
9. maxx!: Forest, Glistener Elf, Invigorate, Scale Up
maxx!'s analysis is exactly my own. OTD he kills me T2, OTP I can chump just in time. 3-3
10. FTW: Wind-Scarred Crag, Ancient Tomb, Stone Rain, Porcelain Legionnaire
Blowing up my slow land seems pretty good again. 0-6
11. Tylert: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Honey Mammoth
OTD I die, OTP I'm just in time to make blockers but can't attack so we draw (see below). 1-4
12. silkster: Island, Ancient Tomb, Aven Eternal, Wistful Thinking
OTD you make me discard all relevant stuff so Walla hits but stays a 1/1 against a 2/2 flying and a 1/1 army. OTP I'm just in time to get a two mana land in play, which allows my Walla to grow. This should draw against your 2/2 flyer and 1/1 army. 1-4
Total: 29 points
vs. Tylert:
A: Village
T: Woodlot
A: Slow land, bouncing my Village
T: Channel into Devastator (T=12)
A: Village
T: Attack, A=12
A: Morph Raiders, discard Walla, play Walla, Raiders is now 5/5
T: Attack, A=4
A: If I attack, I'll die on the backswing, but I have 9 power&toughness to block so we draw.
OTD I'm too slow.
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I am not that good at this, feel free to verify my results.
1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla I grow "fast" enough that it becomes unfavorable to attack, WW
2. jhhdk: Plains, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Lagonna-Band Trailblazer, Flickering Ward <-- ME
3. GoblinSmashmaster: Swamp, Putrid Imp, Reanimate, Faultgrinder DL
4. dte: Hickory Woodlot, island, Squirrel Nest, Wistful thinking OTP i resolve FW, but lose race. LL
5. Reeplcheep: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Ulamog's Crusher, Strider Harness Annihilator LL
6. alphastryk: Swamp, Inquisition of Kozilek, Plagued Rusalka, Hired Poisoner LL, IoK takes FW, HP has free reign.
7. H: Rushwood Grove, Vine Trellis, Elephant Ambush, Emperor Crocodile WW
8. Wrath of Pie: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree, Boros Garrison, Golgari Rot Farm, Firebolt WW, I win the "race" of snails
9. maxx!: Forest, Glistener Elf, Invigorate, Scale Up WW
10. FTW: Wind-Scarred Crag, Ancient Tomb, Stone Rain, Porcelain Legionnaire DD
11. Tylert: Hickory Woodlot, Channel, Eldrazi Devastator, Honey Mammoth LL, I cant grow fast enough to block
12. silkster: Island, Ancient Tomb, Aven Eternal, Wistful Thinking WL, OTP i resolve FW before Silk can get it, OTD i don't.
Not quite sure I understand.
OTP I get to resolve Flickering Ward.
If I return it on your end step and cast on my main phase, you will never get it with Wistful Thinking.
It seems to me like I win the race.
Both me and jhhdk think you didn't read Flickering Ward all the way through the end.
EDIT: j was faster.
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Annihilator 1 still kills you slowly if I have Hand of Emrakul, but you should get 6 points for Crusher being illegal.
Once he has a Trailblazer with the Ward on it, he can keep returning it at EOT and replaying it on his main phase, growing it every 2nd turn. That should hold off the 1/1 at the beginning and eventually race the 2/2 flyer. Instant speed means he can play around you sandbagging Wistful Thinking.
If you skip Wistful Thinking OTD and just play Eternal on T2 to get down earlier, he gets to play the 2nd Trailblazer to always block the Army token and your race gets worse.
I think this is a WL.
I really tried to make Pillage work (due to Vial and other stuff). Between being an uncommon and costing double red, it cost too much design space. I couldn't manage a deck that could both play turn 2 Pillage and also produce a decent threat (sorry Branded Brawlers). Common T2 LD opened up more options. So I just went back to Stone Rain and assumed I would LL to Tylert. I considered a few threats, but being able to play Legionnaire on turn 1 seemed strong in turn 2 mirrors or against turn 1 discard.
Reanimate? I would have played some hexproof fatty or token engine but never would have thought of Faultgrinder. Makes Stone Rain look weak.
I guess everyone was waiting on T1 LD and Force of Will to be banned to play their combos.
alphastryk scored decently, but maybe not as high as you'd expect for playing the meta deck. Just goes to show how bad the remaining black 1 drops are.
You made a good point though. When it's not clear what the card should have been, a substitution isn't fair. It could be anything... like Universal Solvent!
I like how you still scored decent points playing 3CB vs 4 cards.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Other players have had to get straight 0s for that before. Tylert once submitted a Chancellor of the Tangle+Myr Superion deck that started as a clean sweep and ended up as all LLs once we realized the rules don't work. H submitted an illegal Commander deck in Deviant Legacy. GoblinSmashmaster once submitted a transform deck that doesn't actually transform (but managed more than 0 points from normal weenie beatdown). In the Storm Crow round, someone submitted a deck that beats Storm Crow.
Normally you do check and let us know if we submit something illegal. But you did warn us at the beginning of the season you'd be too busy with work. That makes it our responsibility to double check the banlist and card tags to make sure our decks work. It's just an extra few minutes.
Yeah, this game is deceptively hard.
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