LOL dte, silkster and I all played the Chancellor+2 counter deck to beat the 2 counter decks.
Now to see if my "End the Turn" tech is good enough to beat the uncounterable stuff and recursion triggers.
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
Against non-Chancellor decks, my 1/1 forces you to cast the first spell, otherwise it just wins.
1. Asthereal (TO): If you try to cast Chromium pitching Guile, I End the Turn (exiling all uncounterable spells and abilities from the stack), which also stops the Guile reshuffle. If you try to counter Discontinuity, I cast Dualcaster Mage copying it and End the Turn again with a bonus 2/2. You're better off discarding Whelk to cast Chromium, letting it get countered, then casting Guile as a 2nd threat. Dualcaster can't stop that, so I just cast Chancellor to get 7 power in bodies. I would race you so we stare. DD 2-2
2. dte: I think our 1/1s just run into each other and draw. Whoever tries to resolve a spell first loses the counter war. If you just play 2 creatures I can't counter both, but I can counter the blue one and cast my own Chancellor to stare. DD 2-2
3. jhhdk: Very cool idea, but combo is just obliterated by counters and my 5/5 is big. WW 6-0
4. Wrath of Pie: I think you can't make any progress casting spells. If you cast Guile pitching Guile, I End the Turn (and if you try to counter I Dualcast and End the Turn again), then you'd have no threats. If you cast Guile pitching a counter, I Spelljack it. If you counter, I Dualcast your counter and win. If you let me Spelljack and cast a 2nd Guile, I play Chancellor+the stolen Guile and race you. WW 6-0
5. alphastryk: This should work out the same as Wrath. If you play Guile pitching Guile, I End the Turn and can Dualcast your counter back at you. If you play Guile pitching something else, I Spelljack it. If you try to counter, I Dualcast your counter back at you and win. If you let me Spelljack and cast a 2nd Guile, I play Chancellor + stolen Guile and race. WW 6-0
6. Tylert: If you ever try to play your 1 threat, I can End the Turn, and if you try to counter, I Dualcast and really End the Turn. WW 6-0
7. Serguei: If you try to Wheel and Deal me, I Dualcast it back at you with the Guile trigger on the stack. If you either counter my Wheel or let it resolve, I End the Turn countering yours and your Guile triggers.
Otherwise this is like Wrath and alphastryk. If you play Guile discarding Guile, I End the Turn and if you counter I Dualcast and End the Turn again. If you play Guile discarding Wheel, I Spelljack it. If you try to counter, I Dualcast your counter back. If you let me Spelljack and cast your 2nd Guile, then I cast your Guile + my Chancellor and race you. WW 6-0
8. Reeplcheep: If you try to flash in Arbiter, I End the Turn and win, so that's a bad line for you. Your best line is to go for 2 threats. If you lead with Dragonlord, I have to End the Turn. Then if you play Arbiter, it would stop me from playing Chancellor, so I have to Dualcast in response. My 1/1 and 2/2 stare at your 2/3. DD 2-2
9. GoblinSmashmaster: If you try to resolve Arbiter/Recovery, I Spelljack it, and if you try to counter I just Dualcast your counter to counter it. WW 6-0
11. H: Similar to the other 2x Guile matches. I Spelljack your first Guile. If you counter, I can't counter back but I can just Dualcast a 2nd Spelljack copy. If you cast a 2nd Guile, I play your Guile + Chancellor and race. WW 6-0
12. maxx!: This is really interesting tech. If you Slaughter Games first, I Dualcast it targeting you in response to the Eidolon trigger so you can only do 1 thing in response. If you counter or cast Surrak in response, I End the Turn exiling everything and stopping the Eidolon trigger, winning with my 1/1. If you let my Dualcast Slaughter Games resolve, I exile Surrak from your hand and then End the Turn anyway, countering yours and stopping the Eidolon trigger, even worse for you. So you do not try to cast Slaughter Games. If you cast Surrak first, I End the Turn exiling it in response to the Eidolon trigger and then you have no threat, then I cast my Chancellor. If you cast Surrak pitching another card, I End the Turn, then you can cast your 2/2 but I make a Dualcaster to trade and my 1/1 still wins. WW 6-0
13. silkster: Same as dte match. Our 1/1s stare. Whoever plays a spell first loses the counter war. If you Take Possession my 1/1, split second stops me. But then I cast my Chancellor. If you Counterflux it, I Spelljack my own Chancellor and recast it to win. If you play Chancellor instead I Spelljack it and get 2 Chancellors. So you do not want to cast Take Possession first and we stare. DD 2-2
56 points (16 wins, 8 draws, 0 loss)
Edit2: Dualcaster Mage over a counter helped me out vs H and maxx!'s uncounterable spells, Spelljack was sufficient vs the 2x Guile decks, while Counterflux only would have helped vs Asthereal I think.
Edit3: Spelljacking my own spell is tech that can win counter wars vs uncounterable counters.
Last edited by FTW; 01-27-2021 at 08:20 PM.
The card says "target spell" and then "that spell's mana cost", with no "if it was countered" clause. It should get the counters either way.Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Indeed. First thing I can see is that at least FTW and Silkster have registered basically the same deck as me, I guess it cannot be too wrong. Second is that a lot of MU will not be that easy to solve, even if there shouldn't be too much combat math.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
Chancellor forces my opponent to do the first move if they do not play chancellor as well.
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2-2. Dream halls war resulting in 2 1/1 trading?
2
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
6-0. If you play something, I counter the green spell and snatch the blue one.
8
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
6-0. I think your best hope is to cast guile over and over, starting T1. guile, discard guile. Snatch guile with gearhulk. attack for 12. guile, discarding any of the other, counterflux. win.
14
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
6-0. Snatch guile.
20
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
6-0. Again, you having to make the first move make you lose the counter war.
26
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
6-0, see WoP.
32
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
6-0. Trap does not really work as a free card, as you cannot cast GAA if you use the trap, so you still have only 2 spells. if you use summoning to cast GAA, I steal it.
38
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
6-0 in 20 turns.
44
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
2/2. Gobs trade and we don't see more action.
46
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
0-6. That one is pretty strong against my approach.
46
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
1-4. Eidolon is a great idea! OTP I can steal a draw by plying chancellor, discarding counterflux. You cannot counter it, or I gearhulk-snatch your counterflux and draw (4 gobs, chancellor and hulk on the battlefield), and I then have 8 power, so a 3 turns clock, and you can only have a 6/6. When you are OTP, you can start by slaughter game, discarding eidolon, and take out snatch. Then you can play Surrak safely.
47
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
2-2. The mighty 1/1 gobs battle...
49
My other deck would have done slightly better, losing only to jhhdk and Serguei and drawing vs Silkster.
Otherwise, quite complicated all these guile MUs. I might easily be wrong for many MUs.
I also think there will be an insane amounts of draws.
You should have played that. Then I would've won at last a single match. :-)
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
1. Asthereal: I guess that whoever plays a spell first looses. Whatever you do I can Aethersnatch it, whatever I do you can spelljack it or Draining whelk it. so nobody does anything 2-2 --> 2
2. dte: Having a free 1/1 is good. You don't do anything. If I try to play my blocker you try for example to couinterflux it, I'll aethersnatch that but you will aethersnatch my aethersnatch and win. 0-6 --> 2
3. jhhdk: If you play first, I aethersnatch one of your threat and aethersnatch or counter the other card you play. If I play the UR dragon first it outclasses your threats and I can counter Aluren or Casualties of war. 6-0 --> 8
4. Wrath of Pie: Whoever plays first looses. 2-2 --> 10
5. Alphastryk: Whoever plays first looses. 2-2 --> 12
6. Me.
7. Serguei: You can allways play wheel and deal as the first spell and win from there because you'll get a guile in the end. 0-6 --> 12
8. Reeplcheep: If you play anything, I can aethersnatch it. So if you try to play dragonlord, I aethersnatch it and win, so you try to counter but I counter mindbreak trap and win. So you don't do that. If you try to play arbiter T1, It's the same scenario. If you try to play something with flash, You can't play a second spell so I win. So you don't do anything, but I have a 10/10 and wins from there. 6-0 --> 18
9. Goblinsmashmaster: If you try to play grand arbiter, I can Aethersnatch it so you counter and I counter for the win, so you don't do anything. If I try to play The Ur-dragon, You spelljack it, I Aethersnatch your spelljack and you counter my aethersnatch. Draw. 2-2 --> 20
10. FTW: Best tech, having a free 1/1. 0-6 --> 20
11. H: Same as others: If you try to do something, I aethersnatch it. If you try to do something after I aethersnatch it. So you don't do anything. However, when it's my turn, I can play a 10/10 with aethersnatch back up. whatever you do, I win because a 10/10 is faster than a 6/6 even with a free turn). 6-0 --> 26
12. Maxx!: If you try to play something, I can aethersnatch it. If you play something else I can do that also. If you don't do anything, I have a 10/10 to kill you. 6-0 --> 32
13. Silkster: another 1/1 to kill me :) 0-6 --> 32
Total 32: I knew I was bound to get that many draws with that deck. But I was afraid to play a T1 deck like 2x Vengevine + 2x Craterhoof behemoth or 4x Demi-god of revenge for good reasons. WHeel and deal being an instant is huge against aethersnatch. I don't understand why people played spelljack over it, because it counters and there are uncounterable spells.
This meta seems about right. I agree with Reeplcheep in that building your own Sphere effect is the way to go, I just didn't manage to solve that particular puzzle. Having the red chancellor is also a good call because it produces a threat in a non-interactive way which is big.
Results for round https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iof5pRAIZmw:
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
Draining Whelk is a good call, is its a Counterspell that leaves a threat behind. I really wish I'd know about Aethersnatch! the noncreature clause on Commandeer bites me here, as you can play Chromium, I have to Trap it and then you can Whelk the Trap and I can't interact. If I try to be proactive and play a Guile, you can Spelljack and if I counter that you can Whelk. I can't ever get through. LL
0-6
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch
The chancellor sets it up so I have to try to be proactive or die to the goblin. If I try to be proactive, you have 2 counterspells to my one and I can't get through. LL
0-6
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
I should always be able to counter Alluren if you play it, and Guile beats your creatures in combat. WW
6-0
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
I think the double Guile mirror is almost always a staring contest. EDIT: However, Comandeer can't counter creatures, so if you just jam both Guiles on your turn 1 you get one of them through and win the race. DL
1-4
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
This is me
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
I can't be proactive or I lose the counter war, especially with your double Aethersnatch. If you ever play your Dragon however, I win the counter war. This ends up being a staring contest. DD
2-2
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
EDIT: Thanks to Tylert for figuring it out. You will allways play wheel and deal at my EOT. So if I play the counter war, you will end up with 2 Guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If I try to Guile first, you answers with Wheel and Deal that you have to counter while I can, and you can Mindbreak Trap my Guile for the win. LL
0-6
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
The noncreature clause on Commandeer bites me again here, otherwise this would be a staring match. LL
0-6
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
If you ever try to proactively play Grand Aribter, I Trap it, you counter that back, and I Commandeer your counter, so that doesn't work for you. If I ever try to play Guile discarding Guile, You cast one of your counters but I'm able to counter back. Then Guile beats Grand Arbiter in combat even if you play it as a follow up. WW
6-0
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
Another goblin forcing me to be proactive. if I play a Guile, you counter, I counter back and you Dualcaster Mage my counter. LL
0-6
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
OTP, I play my Guile and you have to try to Last Word. If you do, I can Trap back. and get it through. OTD, you can try for your own Guile, but I can counter twice to your single counterspell. Either way, we both end up exhausting our counters and it becomes a Guile race since they are all essentially unblockable. Due to my 2 counterspells, I think I can always end up with a Guile in play 1 turn earlier to win the race. WW
6-0
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
Sandstorm Eidolon is awesome tech! it lets you essentially have 3 spells when everyone else only has 2 available.
OTP: I can lead with Guile right away, but because Surrak has Flash I never get to win a race. even though I can push a Guile through. Looks like a staring contest. D
OTD: You can lead with Slaughter Games which I have to Trap, you can Counterflux back but then I Commandeer. You can play Surrak but I eventually get a Guile and we end up staring at each other over 6/6s again. D
2-2
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
Yet another chancellor producing a goblin to steal the initiative. Again with 2 counterspells. LL
0-6
Total: 23 points
Last edited by alphastryk; 01-27-2021 at 11:13 AM.
How does counterflux help against Asthereal (interested question)?
The MU is a bit hard to figure out.
I don't think it helps you but it helps me.
Discontinuity ending the turn stops the line of Chromium discarding Guile for value, exiling both the uncounterable creature and the Guile trigger (and if he tries to counter I Dualcast Discontinuity and REALLY End The Turn, with a bonus 2/2 - Counterflux would also work).
His optimal line is to Chromium discarding some other card, forcing me to still End the Turn to counter it because I played Spelljack instead of Aethersnatch so I can't steal it. That leaves him with only 2 cards in hand, only able to play either Whelk or Guile. If he tries to cast either, Counterflux can counter it and win but Dualcaster Mage cannot stop a creature, and casting Chancellor can only draw vs Guile.
In your case I don't think it helps because you can't End the Turn, so he gets to recur Guile and play a 3rd thing.
Wheal and deal is an instant. So it can be played in your upkeep. If you try to flash something in response, serguei can mindbreak trap it. one guile will come back. It's more a 0-6
Can't Silk just steal the gob and counter any creature you play?
Seguei will allways play wheel and deal at your EOT (it's an instant). So if you play the counter war, he will end up with 2 guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If you try to guile first, Serguei answers with wheel and deal that you have to counter and he can mindbreak trap your guile for the win.
So it's more 0-6 I think.
Edit: I'm wrong. I can't respond to Take Possession due to Split Second. But I could Spelljack my own creature to dodge his counter, then recast it to win.
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable DD - I expect to see this result a lot.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch LL - Aethersnatch is definitely better than Spelljack (most of the time, that is).
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix WW
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile WD - On the play I can actually resolve Guile first (Commandeer can't hit creatures, so I just cast both Guiles). On the draw you have to cast something to force me to use Time Stop to avoid Guile reshuffles, and Guile + Mindbreak Trap backup does the trick.
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon DD
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap DD - Time Stop does things!
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap DD
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap WD - I can force a Guile through on the play.
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack LL
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word WD - I cast Guile pitching the other Guile. If you Last Word it, I let it resolve and wait to Spelljack if you cast your own Guile. Otherwise, I just wait to redraw my Guiles and cast it again. On the draw, you cast Guile pitching Nexus, and I have to Spelljack because you just pass if I cast Time Stop and win later, so you Last Word to force the Guile through and I have to Time Stop to draw.
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon LL
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge LL
5w11d = 26 points
My analysis led to double-counterspell being a virtual requirement. I did consider Tabernacle, but the issue is that only leaves you with three cards, and the noncreature win conditions were a bit lacking. On the other hand, it would have done things against the incredibly techy Chancellor of the Forge that I missed and might have been a trump in some of the Guile mirrors, so I probably should have just accepted the 3 card hand (probably with Beacon of Destruction as the win condition, which makes Spelljack actually better than Aethersnatch in this case) and the draws I was bound to get anyways. (Grand Arbiter Augustin IV was also on my list, but sorcery-speed threats are sort of bad in this format.)
Last edited by Wrath of Pie; 01-28-2021 at 10:57 AM.
Take possession has split second ;)
Split second!! That was probably the way to break the format... nothing can answer that.
Actually tabby + shivan gorge + dust bowl + mercadian bazaar was my other deck, and would have done great.
My plan was crea + 2 counters, or no spell.
But I was scared of wheel and deal, and of combo decks that kill T1 / without attacking.
See my explanation for the alphastryk match up.
Seguei will allways play wheel and deal at your EOT (it's an instant). So if you play the counter war, he will end up with 2 guiles in the graveyard at the beginning of his turn and will be able to cast it first and win.
If you try to guile first, Serguei answers with wheel and deal that you have to counter and he can mindbreak trap your guile for the win.
more 0-6 I think.
Ah, right, it's not just uncounterable. So he takes my token. I have to play a creature to answer the board, he can counterflux it,and if I End the Turn I counter my own creature.
EDIT: Wait, I can't counter his Counterflux on my Chancellor, but I can Spelljack my own creature in response and then recast the Chancellor to win! So I think he has to hold back Take Possession to have a 2nd counter and we stare. Whoever plays the first permanent loses.
I did look at split second threats, but none of them beat Guile in a race.
Agreed, updating my results.
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