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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #521
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post

    But more importantly:
    Field of Ruin keeps scoring well. We had it on the watchlist for a while and I almost banned it last round.
    If someone is extremely opposed to banning it, speak up, or it gets the hammer for round 6.
    Very glad to see this happen as many of the decks I wanted to play involved the lands that produce 2 mana but bounce another to your hand. I feel like this might open up the creative doors an we'll see some new decks.
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  2. #522
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    ROUND 6 of Season 1 (Legacy) FOUR CARD BLIND has started!

    I have PM'ed myself my deck for the round.
    So... you can all start PM'ing me your submission for this sixth round.

    DEADLINE: Wednesday the 27th of March, at 6:00AM Central European Time. (That's my time. Just send me the deck Tuesday evening latest, you'll be fine).

    PLEASE NOTE:
    - The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
    Please send your deck as follows: Goblin Guide, Mogg Fanatic, Pithing Needle, Cavern of Souls (so with card tags around each card, and not above eachother), with your Username and 4CB S01R06 in the topic. Many of you already did this for previous rounds. Thanks a lot, this really saves me the time and hassle of copying and pasting text and tags!
    - The banned list (you'll find it in the second post). Don't send in illegal decks. I might catch it and notify you, but if I overlook it, you miss out on the round.
    There is one change for round 6. Field of Ruin is now banned. We've had it on the watch list, but it keeps dominating, so I decided to give it the axe.
    The banned list is open for discussion. Cards of the current watchlist are: Lion's Eye Diamond, Eureka, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Leyline of Singularity, Shelldock Isle and Elixir of Immortality.

    After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.

    If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

    Happy deck designing everybody!

    ABOUT ROUND FIVE:
    If you haven't posted your scores yet. Please do so this weekend, so I can post scores and update standings before the deadline for round 6.
    We also have a public Google Spreadsheet. You can enter your scores there as well.

  3. #523

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I would look at adding Shelldock Isle to the watchlist, it is usually banned in non-vanishing 3CB and it is likely still good enough to deserve the status in 4CB.

  4. #524
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I would look at adding Shelldock Isle to the watchlist, it is usually banned in non-vanishing 3CB and it is likely still good enough to deserve the status in 4CB.
    Done. I might be adding more after the decks for this round are posted.

  5. #525

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Here are some cards that I would consider unban candidates, ignoring the cards banned in Legacy that are otherwise blanks:

    Daze - It is better than Force Spike, but the upgrade is minor at best.
    Dark Ritual - Turn 1 Liliana of the Veil/Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath is actually rather fair (and Liliana still requires a win condition to go with it). There is some risk involved here, but I think the upside is worthwhile.
    Reanimate - The best combo version is slower than LED/Rites, so I fail to see why it's banned. There is a bit of risk with a Dark Ritual unban, but being unable to win if the opponent doesn't play any creature cards that don't reshuffle is a real drawback.
    Trinisphere - Trinisphere is really only good on turn 1, and in the current format finding a compatible win condition to go with Turn 1 Trinisphere is rather difficult.

  6. #526
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I have no idea if it is broken or not, but I got very aroused just thinking about Dark Ritual.
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  7. #527
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Here are some cards that I would consider unban candidates, ignoring the cards banned in Legacy that are otherwise blanks:
    My reasoning:

    Daze - Free cards very dangerous. Force Spike is infinitely worse because you have to choose between casting a threat of leaving open Spike mana.
    Dark Ritual - Turns on a LOT of really dangerous things.
    Reanimate - I forgot about the LED/Unburial Rites combo. I would have wanted that banned at the start. Insane combo is insane and unfun for most. But yeah, I forgot, and it didn't dominate.
    Trinisphere - Yeah, this card is sooo insane in 4CB. I banned it out of principle. And finding a threat that works with it isn't that hard. Manlands, Chancellor of the Forge, you name it. Very doable.

    From these four, I'd say unbanning Reanimate is probably the safest, since LED/Rites is already a thing that doesn't dominate that much. Still, I have my doubts.

    PS. Blue power 9 cards are banned out of principle. They don't do anything in 4CB, but blue power 9 cannot be legal in a format called "(something) Legacy".

  8. #528

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    My reasoning:

    Daze - Free cards very dangerous. Force Spike is infinitely worse because you have to choose between casting a threat of leaving open Spike mana.
    The problem is that Force Spike is not really that good (reactive mini-Sphere turns out to be worse than proactive Sphere), so a slightly upgraded Force Spike should not be that dangerous.

    Dark Ritual - Turns on a LOT of really dangerous things.
    Convince me, because fast mana is a lot less scary than it looks (unless it's Black Lotus, which is ridiculous to the point that it makes turn 1 Artifact Blast look better than it actually is). It is rather weak in 3CB, so the extra card does give some risk, but the scariest thing I can think of is turn 1 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, which is not really that scary compared to other options.

    Reanimate - I forgot about the LED/Unburial Rites combo. I would have wanted that banned at the start. Insane combo is insane and unfun for most. But yeah, I forgot, and it didn't dominate.
    I think LED/Rites is actually fine because it is an all-in hand that has varying weaknesses based on construction. Honestly, that isn't even the best LED combo legal.

    Trinisphere - Yeah, this card is sooo insane in 4CB. I banned it out of principle. And finding a threat that works with it isn't that hard. Manlands, Chancellor of the Forge, you name it. Very doable.
    It is weak to storage lands (which really need the encouragement outside of Force of Will) and Sphere of Resistance has roughly the same effect while allowing more cards to be played with it. That could possibly mean that Sphere should be banned along with Trinisphere, but I think you are overvaluing Trinisphere. (Played in too many 3CB rounds with it legal along with Workshop, and pretty much wished that I had played Sphere over Trinisphere every time.)

    Curious how you power out turn 1 Trinisphere and win with manlands, I think Chancellor of the Forge is the only real option, which is less scary than it looks.

    I am aware that some of the cards are banned because of format constraints (which is why I didn't bother with them); not a big loss though.

    While I'm here, I should really start on that card blind blog...

  9. #529
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    The problem is that Force Spike is not really that good (reactive mini-Sphere turns out to be worse than proactive Sphere), so a slightly upgraded Force Spike should not be that dangerous.
    Force Spike and Daze are two very different things. Do you see anyone playing Spike in Legacy? Nope. Daze, though? Absolutely. And in DtB's at that.
    Cards that can be cast for no mana are always dangerous. To me, Daze feels specially dangerous because you get to execute your own plan while still having permission at the ready that only costs one card.
    We could try to unban it, but I think it will dominate. Still, it's not unfair, so it shouldn't messup our enjoying 4CB.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Convince me, because fast mana is a lot less scary than it looks (unless it's Black Lotus, which is ridiculous to the point that it makes turn 1 Artifact Blast look better than it actually is). It is rather weak in 3CB, so the extra card does give some risk, but the scariest thing I can think of is turn 1 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, which is not really that scary compared to other options.
    Actually, turn one Ob Nixilis is pretty dangerous. But there are plenty of things that can be done with Ritual. I would oppose unbanning Dark Ritual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I think LED/Rites is actually fine because it is an all-in hand that has varying weaknesses based on construction. Honestly, that isn't even the best LED combo legal.
    My original plan was to eliminate all fast combo AND ban Force of Will. That seemed more fun to me.
    But naturally, I forgot to ban a few combo pieces, and many people advocated to keep FoW legal.
    So yeah, that happened, and now we have a number of things banned that might be possible to unban.

    But the problem with keeping FoW and combo legal is that the meta will become limited to "combo", "anti-combo" and "something that beats anti-combo but loses to combo".
    If that happens, our 4CB will turn into poker rather than creative deck building. I want to prevent that.
    But since we have a limited number of combo decks that seem not to dominate too much, we could look at unbanning this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    It is weak to storage lands (which really need the encouragement outside of Force of Will) and Sphere of Resistance has roughly the same effect while allowing more cards to be played with it. That could possibly mean that Sphere should be banned along with Trinisphere, but I think you are overvaluing Trinisphere. (Played in too many 3CB rounds with it legal along with Workshop, and pretty much wished that I had played Sphere over Trinisphere every time.)

    Curious how you power out turn 1 Trinisphere and win with manlands, I think Chancellor of the Forge is the only real option, which is less scary than it looks.
    There's always Dryad Arbor, which sees criminally limited play. But I miscalculated my other options, so that might be it.


    Unbannings
    So concluding: Wrath here suggests we unban a few cards, namely:
    - Trinisphere
    - Reanimate
    - Daze
    - Dark Ritual

    Who feels like these cards should be okay to unban?

  10. #530

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Force Spike and Daze are two very different things. Do you see anyone playing Spike in Legacy? Nope. Daze, though? Absolutely. And in DtB's at that.
    Cards that can be cast for no mana are always dangerous. To me, Daze feels specially dangerous because you get to execute your own plan while still having permission at the ready that only costs one card.
    We could try to unban it, but I think it will dominate. Still, it's not unfair, so it shouldn't messup our enjoying 4CB.
    I would consider Daze roughly on par with the current power level of the format. It is actually rather similar to discard in that it is worse on the draw. The only potential issue is that it naturally pairs with Chronomaton, but that is more of a problem with Chronomaton being the best 1-drop threat available without special constraints.

    Also, another excuse to play something like Durkwood Baloth is always welcome.

    Actually, turn one Ob Nixilis is pretty dangerous. But there are plenty of things that can be done with Ritual. I would oppose unbanning Dark Ritual.
    It looks dangerous, but when you have turn 1 reanimation it looks tame in comparison.

    I think you want a fairer format, but getting there is much more difficult than you think, because there is always something that will break the format given the restrictions built into it.

  11. #531
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    FTW: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Web of Inertia

    ...
    9. Strawberry Dwarf: I can Force one Shoal, but the other works. OTP Web locks you with me at 1 life. OTD both Griffin and Web are 1 turn too slow. 3-3
    ...

    Turns out Propaganda would have won me more games than Web, beating Strawberry Dwarf (no lands) but still losing to Field of Ruins decks and drawing with CptHaddock and Whoshim. I forget why I thought Web was good. Maybe City of Traitors -> Lupine Prototype, but that's banned.
    You are way too optimistic (maybe you missed FoW costs you that 1 life):

    You OTP create the Web on T5 when you absorbed my 4 attacks (-8 life), my next turn I play both Shoals (in main phase before attack to exile one to attack), you FoW one (-1 life) and you lose 9 life from the attack. You are at 2, face two 1/1s, your storage land is empty, and I still have 1 Shoal in grave to pay the Web next turn.
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  12. #532
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Standings for round 5 (according to current scores in the Google spreadsheet):

    1. Wrath of Pie: 46, 5 season points
    2. Tylert: 42, 3 season poins
    3. Asthereal: 41, 2 season points
    3. apple713: 41, 2 season points

    5. Strawberry Dwarf: 39
    6. FTW: 36
    7. Ace/Homebrew: 29
    8. Whoshim: 23
    9. spirit of the wretch: 21
    10. CptHaddock: 20
    11. JackaBo: 16
    12. H: 14

    Also, we have just 3 entries so far for round 6. Where is everybody?

  13. #533
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    i will post my entry on monday or tuesday as usual.
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  14. #534
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry Dwarf View Post
    You are way too optimistic (maybe you missed FoW costs you that 1 life):

    You OTP create the Web on T5 when you absorbed my 4 attacks (-8 life), my next turn I play both Shoals (in main phase before attack to exile one to attack), you FoW one (-1 life) and you lose 9 life from the attack. You are at 2, face two 1/1s, your storage land is empty, and I still have 1 Shoal in grave to pay the Web next turn.
    I had you playing the exact same line, but I had myself at 3 life facing two 1/1s (with 1 Shoal left in GY). Your math checks out. I must have forgotten the FoW life or miscounted the damage from the resolved Shoal. You win both.

  15. #535

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    2. Wrath of Pie: Field of Ruin, Phyrexian Revoker, Steel Overseer, Ancient Tomb LL
    3. CptHaddock: Form of the Dragon, Dwarven Hold, Maze of Ith, Pithing Needle WW 6
    4. Whoshim: Plains, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Gideon's Lawkeeper WD 10
    5. spirit of the wretch: Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Chalice of the Void, Eater of Days LD 11
    6. JackaBo: Bayou, Elves of the deep shadow, Smallpox, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Me
    7. Ace/Homebrew: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Radiant Fountain, Smallpox, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn DD 13
    8. FTW: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Web of Inertia LL
    9. Strawberry Dwarf: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal LL
    10. Tylert: City of traitors, Field of ruin, Phyrexian revoker, Chronomaton LL
    11. H: Chalice of the Void, Rackling, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors LD 14
    12. apple713: Magus of the Moon, Rift Bolt, Simian Spirit Guide, City of Traitors LL

    14 Points, wow a new low!
    I do agree that this format need some shake up. If i t wasn't for that I wanted to submit a different strategy each time I would have run Lupine/FoR every round, it's the tier one IMO.
    Honestly, this has been fun but it takes sooooo much time! I'm jumping off the wagon while...
    Happy brewing!

  16. #536
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Also, we have just 3 entries so far for round 6. Where is everybody?
    I haven't been engaged since round 2...this format looks solved already, or very close to it. The novelty was very exciting, but after a few rounds I just ran out of steam for brewing anything new. Brewing is all this format is about, it's not like we are mastering decks to make top 8.

    Just my $0.02. It was super fun in the beginning but it's lost it's shine.
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  17. #537

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I haven't been engaged since round 2...this format looks solved already, or very close to it. The novelty was very exciting, but after a few rounds I just ran out of steam for brewing anything new. Brewing is all this format is about, it's not like we are mastering decks to make top 8.

    Just my $0.02. It was super fun in the beginning but it's lost it's shine.
    This is why I usually prefer the vanishing model, because it deals with the solved format issue nicely.

  18. #538
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    This is why I usually prefer the vanishing model, because it deals with the solved format issue nicely.
    Maybe this means we should be banning cards at a faster rate. If it takes too long to ban, the format is too "solved" and player interest declines. We can unban things later, but for the sake of diversity it might be better to ban things right away (first suggestion) instead of waiting 1-2 more rounds to see proof of dominance (aka boring).

  19. #539
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    We could take the same approach as modern and ban things that end the game before a certain turn. That way decks have at least 3 turns (or however many turns we decide) to do something awesome.

    I agree with mr safety to an extent that the format seems solved because there are very few cards that compete on the level that we are currently at. Setting the bar this high really hurts other decks / options.

    Since this format is so limited, I think we also have to be more vigilant in banning. Whether or not the banned list is vanishing, it might be helpful to track the top decks from previous rounds and run them against the current round to see if they are still outperforming. This sounds like alot but really it should only take about 15 min to run your deck throuh yhe field unless your deck is very complex.
    Play 4 Card Blind!

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  20. #540
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Personally I don't see a problem with decks that can win fast, as long as they're fragile and lose to disruption (Force of Will, Duress, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice, Force Spike, Daze, Karakas, Smallpox, Innocent Blood, Mental Misstep, Foil, Mind Swords). Most of them don't win before turn 3 anyway, and there's enough diverse disruption and different decks to use them that fast decks should be fair.

    However I think we should have banned Field of Ruin and Lupine Prototype sooner. We should strongly consider banning Leyline of Singularity now that Field of Ruin is gone, because Leyline+Karakas too easily invalidates most creature strategies without Field of Ruin + cheap artifact shenanigans.

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