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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #541

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    That way decks have at least 3 turns (or however many turns we decide) to do something awesome.
    That would require a sizable ban list, because the critical turn most of the time is turn 1.

    There is nothing wrong with a fairer format, but at that point you end up doing something like banning all turn 1 discard, and I think part of the spirit of Card Blind is that the format is insanely broken and it is better to embrace that.

  2. #542

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think we need to decide what we want the format to look like. What is the end goal?

    There will always be combo and control unless we ban so many cards that they are not practical anymore. If we do that, then what?

    I think that the goal is to have as diverse a meta as we can, but with 4 card decks, that is going to be pretty tough.

    I am fine with any decision. Part of it is that I don't know how we can avoid the problems unless we create a huge ban list. I don't know how diverse we can really make the format.

  3. #543
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I think we should ban the top deck every round. Period.
    Vanishing format.
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  4. #544
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    I think we should ban the top deck every round. Period.
    Vanishing format.
    This.

    I would like to see a new season with a very minimal banned list
    - Fast Mana (Moxen, Lotus, Sol Ring, etc)
    - Broken (Balance, Burning Inquiry, Time Vault, etc)
    - Stupid (Shahrazad)

    Everything that isn't completly and obviously busted may roam free for a little.
    Then ban the 1-3 best performing decks each round.
    That should make for a very voletile and interessting format I think.
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  5. #545

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    If we really wanted to dig deep into the card archives, we could ban all cards used each round. With a 12 round season, I think we could still create workable decks by the last week without having to unban anything. That would definitely keep things interesting.

  6. #546
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    One more suggestion: rotate legality according to format (Vintage, Legacy, Modern, Standard, Pauper.) Leave the ban/restricted list intact but know that as soon as you solve Legacy everyone has to move on to Modern with that format's card pool for the next round.

    You could also do it by set/block/past-standard format as well. Limit the card pool not by the ban-list but rather by set/era. I would definitely be down for that, because it would give brand new opportunities for brewing that are fresh. If all we had was Lorwyn/Morningtide or Time Spiral block it could super fun, combining a draft feeling with 4-card blind. Once you get through those eras you could do a Chaos draft type of format, like Ravnica/Odyssey/Champions of Kamigawa. Then it becomes a lot harder to solve.

    Just some thoughts.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You could also do it by set/block/past-standard format as well. Limit the card pool not by the ban-list but rather by set/era. I would definitely be down for that, because it would give brand new opportunities for brewing that are fresh. If all we had was Lorwyn/Morningtide or Time Spiral block it could super fun, combining a draft feeling with 4-card blind. Once you get through those eras you could do a Chaos draft type of format, like Ravnica/Odyssey/Champions of Kamigawa. Then it becomes a lot harder to solve.
    This does sound like a lot of fun indeed.
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  8. #548
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch View Post
    This does sound like a lot of fun indeed.
    Standard doesn't sound fun. decks will be either 3 1 drop, or 2 1 drop 1 removal or 1 2 drop 1 removal or 1 3 drop.
    I don't see anything except creature based decks winning.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    The decline in participation is worrying. In my opinion, we could do two things:
    1. We could cut this season short and switch to a "bannathon" or so variant, or
    2. I could ban and unban faster.

    So far I've been reluctant to ban too much, since there was a lot of opposition against bannings at first.
    I could change this. For instance, I could unban all cards suggested by Wrath of Pie for next round.
    That should shake things up a bit. Afterwards we could ban and/or unban more stuff, if we like.
    However, this only works if people actually post about what they want banned and unbanned.

    Or we could do both.

    My suggestion would be we do this:
    - We cut this current season down to 8 rounds.
    - I unban Daze, Dark Ritual, Trinisphere and Reanimate for next round.
    - After round 8, we start a Vintage (yes, we'll play Lotus and Moxen) Bannathon, where all cards that make top-5 in each round get added to the banned list.
    Who's in favour? Who's against?


    PS. By the way, this format is VERY not solved. This round I score points with a deck shown in the opening post.
    There's been plenty of time to find a solution to a deck that's known, and that doesn't do anything on turn one.

    PPS. Five entries for round 6, with about 16 hours until the deadline.

  10. #550
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Standard doesn't sound fun. decks will be either 3 1 drop, or 2 1 drop 1 removal or 1 2 drop 1 removal or 1 3 drop.
    I don't see anything except creature based decks winning.
    Finding the best deck would be easier, yes...but it wouldn't be stale. You would have to switch to a different format the next week. I personally like the 'draft format' 4CB idea the best. Standard isn't fun as a constructed format (to me) but doing a chaos draft format with 4CB would be pretty cool.

    I think doing a Pauper 4CB would be hella fun, honestly.
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  11. #551
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    My suggestion would be we do this:
    - We cut this current season down to 8 rounds.
    - I unban Daze, Dark Ritual, Trinisphere and Reanimate for next round.
    - After round 8, we start a Vintage (yes, we'll play Lotus and Moxen) Bannathon, where all cards that make top-5 in each round get added to the banned list.
    Who's in favour? Who's against?


    I like Vintage, so I'm fine with that. The first couple rounds will likely be crazy and then get more interesting as things go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    PS. By the way, this format is VERY not solved. This round I score points with a deck shown in the opening post.
    There's been plenty of time to find a solution to a deck that's known, and that doesn't do anything on turn one.

    PPS. Five entries for round 6, with about 16 hours until the deadline.
    There is often a big difference between "appears solved" and "is solved." Likely this is a good illustration of how it works in regular, ol' 60 card Constructed Magic too.

    I'm still trying to think of a deck that doesn't suck totally. I'll have a list in soon.
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  12. #552
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    PS. By the way, this format is VERY not solved. This round I score points with a deck shown in the opening post.
    There's been plenty of time to find a solution to a deck that's known, and that doesn't do anything on turn one.
    Perception is reality; if enough people see it as solved, it doesn't matter if it really is or not. I'm not positive about this, I can only speak for myself, but that isn't even the biggest issue. It was novel, now it's boring. I think this project needs something to make it sexy again. I mean, 4CB is the handjob of magic formats. Give us a little foreplay and the chance to indulge our kinks.
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  13. #553
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Perception is reality; if enough people see it as solved, it doesn't matter if it really is or not. I'm not positive about this, I can only speak for myself, but that isn't even the biggest issue. It was novel, now it's boring. I think this project needs something to make it sexy again. I mean, 4CB is the handjob of magic formats. Give us a little foreplay and the chance to indulge our kinks.
    Some people also feel it costs them too much time to find a strong deck.
    That's going to get a lot worse of we keep it fresh all the time.

    But anyway, I really feel like we should do what I suggest:
    Cut this one short with two more rounds with a ton of cards unbanned, and then go for a bannathon for season 2.
    We start super insane with all the sick cards, and ban everything that scores top-5 (or top-3, depending on interest).

    For season three, I would be interested in what someone suggested above: block based. We could turn that into an entire season:
    Round 1: Ice Age, The Dark, Fallen Empires.
    Round 2: Mirage, Visions, Weatherlight.
    Round 3: Tempest, Stronghold, Exodus.
    And so on. That'll keep things fresh. I'm not sure about how to handle bannings yet though.

    This seems like a heck of a lot of fun to me. Also very difficult, but yeah.

  14. #554
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    I'm not sure about how to handle bannings yet though.
    If you go this route I don't think you will need to ban cards. The broken interactions will be limited. I mean, Urza's block will have Show and Tell and Tinker but no Blightsteel Colossus or Emrakul.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Some people also feel it costs them too much time to find a strong deck.
    That's going to get a lot worse of we keep it fresh all the time.
    I don't know, I could see it as the opposite. Because you know that whatever was really strong before, won't be there in a vanishing format. So, something new might well be better now, the new meta is relatively "unknown" so finding a deck you can think of a "plausibly good enough" is likely easier. If nothing is banned, then you go right back to the same drawing board you were at before, only more constricted every time nothing was banned.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Maybe you're right.
    Valuable insights, everybody!

    All in favour of, and all against, my suggested course of action, please post here.

    (For those who missed it, I suggested this.
    Participation rates are dropping fast. To counter, I want to do the following:
    - I cut down this season to just 8 rounds instead of the planned 12. So next season starts very soon!
    - For round 7 I unban Daze, Dark Rit, Reanimate and Trinisphere. I will also be vigilant in (un)banning more, if it looks sensible.
    - Season 2 will be Vintage bannathon, so we start with all the insane cards, and top decks get banned for next rounds.)

  17. #557

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    I am in favor of all three points.

    Additionally, I would rather have the average points/week scoring method instead of the top 3 method that was mentioned earlier.

  18. #558

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch View Post
    This.

    I would like to see a new season with a very minimal banned list
    - Fast Mana (Moxen, Lotus, Sol Ring, etc)
    - Broken (Balance, Burning Inquiry, Time Vault, etc)
    - Stupid (Shahrazad)

    Everything that isn't completly and obviously busted may roam free for a little.
    Then ban the 1-3 best performing decks each round.
    That should make for a very voletile and interessting format I think.
    Shahrazad is not actually that stupid, it just halves both life totals because both players lose due to being unable to draw a card in the subgame and Shahrazad only cares about winners.

  19. #559

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Standard doesn't sound fun. decks will be either 3 1 drop, or 2 1 drop 1 removal or 1 2 drop 1 removal or 1 3 drop.
    I don't see anything except creature based decks winning.
    Creatures do usually dominate Standard CB formats, but the real breaker is token generators if available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    The decline in participation is worrying. In my opinion, we could do two things:
    1. We could cut this season short and switch to a "bannathon" or so variant, or
    2. I could ban and unban faster.

    So far I've been reluctant to ban too much, since there was a lot of opposition against bannings at first.
    I could change this. For instance, I could unban all cards suggested by Wrath of Pie for next round.
    That should shake things up a bit. Afterwards we could ban and/or unban more stuff, if we like.
    However, this only works if people actually post about what they want banned and unbanned.

    Or we could do both.

    My suggestion would be we do this:
    - We cut this current season down to 8 rounds.
    - I unban Daze, Dark Ritual, Trinisphere and Reanimate for next round.
    - After round 8, we start a Vintage (yes, we'll play Lotus and Moxen) Bannathon, where all cards that make top-5 in each round get added to the banned list.
    Who's in favour? Who's against?


    PS. By the way, this format is VERY not solved. This round I score points with a deck shown in the opening post.
    There's been plenty of time to find a solution to a deck that's known, and that doesn't do anything on turn one.

    PPS. Five entries for round 6, with about 16 hours until the deadline.
    This is fine with me, but you really have to preemptively ban Balance in the Vintage format, because the fourth card means that traditional answers like Chancellor of the Annex are less good against Lotus/Balance/Rack/4th card (most likely Strip Mine).

    I think I would prefer the bans being limited to those scoring above 4.5 points per match (or a popularity metric, as in 3 or more submissions of a single card), but top 5 is going to be generally similar anyways, so no argument there.

  20. #560
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    This is fine with me, but you really have to preemptively ban Balance in the Vintage format, because the fourth card means that traditional answers like Chancellor of the Annex are less good against Lotus/Balance/Rack/4th card (most likely Strip Mine).
    I'd likely let it slide, see where it goes. I'm pretty sure there are multiple ways to beat that, I can think of a simple deck that would not lose to that at all.

    One question on the "Vintage" format, are we going to restrict what is on the Restricted List? Or should we be allowing multiple Lotus, for example? I think that would be extremely silly. If not, then Balance would likely have to be gone from the get go though.
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