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Thread: 4 Card Blind

  1. #561
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoshim View Post
    I am in favor of all three points.

    Additionally, I would rather have the average points/week scoring method instead of the top 3 method that was mentioned earlier.
    I am also in favour of the changes and would like the scoring method.
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  2. #562

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I'd likely let it slide, see where it goes. I'm pretty sure there are multiple ways to beat that, I can think of a simple deck that would not lose to that at all.

    One question on the "Vintage" format, are we going to restrict what is on the Restricted List? Or should we be allowing multiple Lotus, for example? I think that would be extremely silly. If not, then Balance would likely have to be gone from the get go though.
    It is not unbeatable, but the format warps heavily around its presence.

    Unrestricted Lotus would be fine, because it is likely only lasting one round anyways.

  3. #563
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    It is not unbeatable, but the format warps heavily around its presence.

    Unrestricted Lotus would be fine, because it is likely only lasting one round anyways.
    Well, I mean, it's hard to disagree with that, because I actually firmly believe that Balance is the most broken and, ironically, the least balanced Magic card ever made.
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  4. #564

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Hello all, I've read through much of this thread and found it very entertaining. Thanks for organizing, Asthereal.

    For what it's worth, I think an everything-starts-out-unbanned banathon would be fun. Ban the cards belonging to the top N decks, for some sensible value of N, possibly depending on number of decks competing. (Asthereal, I like your plan of doing Vintage and then visiting some old sets. Actually, IMO you could skip Vintage if you wanted to and just go for the old sets.)

    Here's why I'm posting. I've been working out an Alpha/Beta-only 4CB meta on my own. How do people approach solving a 4CB puzzle where the optimal lines of play are not obvious? I'm trying to calculate Mountain, Sol Ring, Sol Ring, The Hive versus Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Orcish Artillery, Orcish Artillery. I think the Hive deck basically has the upper hand, but it's hard to tell if and when the Orcs can aim for a draw by killing both players at once. (Edit: Somehow it was easier on paper than on the computer. I realize now that Hive never needs to block and can win the race even with Orc on the play, regardless of whether Orc attacks, burns tokens, or burns face. 6:0 Hive:Orc.)

    Edit: I have also started working out a Mirage 4CB meta. I start with one deck in the pool, then
    (A) Add one deck that will achieve the highest score if it competes with everything currently in the pool (or ties for highest and is different by at least 2 cards from other decks in the tie) and
    (B) Remove the single lowest-scoring deck.
    (C) Remove additional lowest-scoring decks if they form a "closed loop" that isn't taking points from decks above (i.e., if 3 bad decks are beating each other but losing 0-6 to good decks, cut all 3).

    There are always 2 or more instances of A for every instance of B and C. Right now I'm at:
    Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Igneous Golem (5/36)
    Forest, Mountain, Incinerate, Granger Guildmage (10/36)
    Swamp, Mountain, Goblin Tinkerer, Shadow Guildmage (16/36)
    Teferi's Isle, Crystal Vein, Crystal Vein, Mist Dragon (18/36)
    Forest, Mountain, Consuming Ferocity, Granger Guildmage (20/36)
    Swamp, Dark Ritual, Stupor, Shadow Guildmage (21/36)
    Teferi's Isle, Swamp, Dark Banishing, Suq'Ata Firewalker (24/36)

    Prior to coming up with the Teferi's Isle deck, I was really stumped by the Forest, Mountain, Consuming Ferocity, Granger Guildmage deck. Now I realize Teferi's Isle is pretty strong. Next up is probably Teferi's Isle, Merfolk Raiders, Merfolk Raiders, Boomerang.
    Last edited by BirdsOfParadise; 03-27-2019 at 06:24 AM.

  5. #565
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Hello all, I've read through much of this thread and found it very entertaining. Thanks for organizing, Asthereal.
    You're welcome, and also you're welcome to join if you like.


    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    How do people approach solving a 4CB puzzle where the optimal lines of play are not obvious?
    We just discuss possible lines here on the forum. So far, we've always managed to reach a conclusion.
    Maybe we've missed something somewhere, but if no one can find the optimal line, then no one can complain about it either.


    About round 6:
    Decks will be posted today, but I'll be a bit later than usual because I have a deadline at work.

  6. #566
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Crystal Vein, Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Barren Glory seems good
    (Crystal Vein to beat double Chancellor of the Annex or turn 1 Sphere)

    Crystal Vein, Black Lotus, Balance, The Rack also seems good for the same reasons
    (sac land + Balance has the same effect of Strip Mine, except that it can also add +1 mana against resistors)


    Edit, nevermind. This is a turn 0 format.

    Turn 0 Combo: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Street Wraith

    Turn 0 Prison: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Trinisphere, Dryad Arbor

    Turn 0 Control: Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, Balance, The Rack

    Doesn't lose to turn 0: Force of Will/Chancellor of the Annex.dec
    hum... why wouldn't force of will beat those? you just fow lotus and we're done.
    then play plain into student of warfare to beat the one with dryad arbor or any land into chronomaton.
    Death and taxes!!

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  7. #567
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    AS always 4CB is a metagame gamble.
    FoW beats a ton of broken strategies. But then it gets banned.
    And at that point all bets are of ;)
    Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Asthereal's scores for round 6:

    1. Asthereal: that's me, finally realizing we hadn't played the most broken thing yet: Infect Shoal (Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon).
    2. Wrath of Pie: T1 Nexus, T2 attack + Shoal is faster than your deck OTP. OTD Vindicating my Nexus on turn 2 is good enough. 3-3
    3. FTW: You can't stop T1 Nexus, T2 attack + Shoal. 6-0
    4. Whoshim: Lingering Souls is somewhat problematic for my deck. Also, Gargamel is somewhat slow. 0-6
    5. spirit of the wretch: OTP I can lead with Nexus and kill you. OTD you Encroach and I'm sad. 3-3
    6. H: OTP I can lead with Nexus and kill you. OTD you Encroach and I'm sad. 3-3
    7. Tylert: Can't attack and Shoal at the same time because of Sphere. Or Peedle. Chrono races Gargamel? 0-6
    8. apple713: Very interesting deck. Assuming it works. I'm not sure, but even if it does, turn 2 flying 11/1 infect attack is pretty good. 6-0

    So that leaves me at: 21 points
    Last edited by Asthereal; 03-28-2019 at 04:38 AM.

  10. #570
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    1. Asthereal (TO): (Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon)
    On the play, Encroaching Nexus should win. On the draw, I lose. 3-3 (3)
    2. Wrath of Pie: (Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre)
    On the play, I take Isle and win. On the draw, I just lose. 3-3 (6)
    3. FTW: (City of Traitors, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Inkwell Leviathan)
    ON the play I take city and win. On the draw, too lose and lose. 3-3 (9)
    4. Whoshim: (Nether Spirit, Lingering Souls, Lion's Eye Diamond, Bridge From Below)
    Encroach is useless, so I think I lead on Chrono. You do your thing. I play Affliction on my turn. I can't really ever block. So, you have 4 damage per turn, but only if you let me swing with Chrono. So, I guess I also have 4 per turn. But I should likely make Chrono a 2/2, or maybe a 3/3 though. This one is complicated, I need to think about it more. Just swinging with the 2 Spirits can't race, so Spirit has to attack at some point.
    5. spirit of the wretch: (Swamp, Chronomaton, Encroach, Fourth Bridge Prowler)
    Well, we each win on the play. 3-3
    6. H: Bye, myself.
    7. Tylert: (City of traitors, Sphere of resistance, Chronomaton, Pithing needle)
    Win the the play, lose to Sphere on the draw. 3-3
    8. apple713: (city of traitors, lionís eye diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn)
    I think I win this on the play, because he can only get a 2/2 every three turns? On the Draw, I can't stop the land, and so 3 2/2s every three turns wins the race. Maybe. I have to think about this more too.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    hum... why wouldn't force of will beat those? you just fow lotus and we're done.
    then play plain into student of warfare to beat the one with dryad arbor or any land into chronomaton.
    Re-read the "doesn't lose to turn 0" section you quoted. FoW and Chancellor clearly shuts down those decks. The point is it becomes a "turn 0" format. Either you have a turn 0 answer or you lose the game before your first draw step. Sounds like a stale format.

    Combo decks can metagame around FoW/Chancellor decks by playing slower versions that go off at sorcery speed (turn 1) but win around disruption. At that point, "fair" decks might have a chance to resolve something OTP though Balance still wrecks most things, and Lab Man still outraces fair decks. It just looks too broken to be interesting. Who knew Black Lotus was good?

  12. #572
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Re-read the "doesn't lose to turn 0" section you quoted. FoW and Chancellor clearly shuts down those decks. The point is it becomes a "turn 0" format. Either you have a turn 0 answer or you lose the game before your first draw step. Sounds like a stale format.

    Combo decks can metagame around FoW/Chancellor decks by playing slower versions that go off at sorcery speed (turn 1) but win around disruption. At that point, "fair" decks might have a chance to resolve something OTP though Balance still wrecks most things, and Lab Man still outraces fair decks. It just looks too broken to be interesting. Who knew Black Lotus was good?
    Well, the point though is that it is a vanishing format, so yeah, everything you said, but then all that will disappear and there would be a totally different paradigm.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Wow, with all this combo I really should have submitted FoW-Griffin again.

    1. Asthereal (TO): You're faster and I have no disruption. LL 0-6
    2. Wrath of Pie: You can't target Inkwell but Annihilator still does the job. LL 0-6
    3. FTW: Me
    4. Whoshim: Inkwell is faster OTP, OTD you get an extra attack and kill me first. WL 3-3
    5. spirit of the wretch: OTP Inkwell wins. OTD Encroach wins. WL 3-3
    6. H: OTP Inkwell wins. OTD Encroach wins. WL 3-3
    7. Tylert: City lets me win through Sphere. Luckily you chose Pithing Needle instead of Revoker so you can't shut off LED. WW 6-0
    8. apple713: Not sure this combo works, but pretty sure my clock is a turn faster (even OTD I attack first because you can't attack into Inkwell). WW 6-0

    Total = 21 pts
    Last edited by FTW; 03-28-2019 at 07:10 AM.

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    5. spirit of the wretch: Swamp, Chronomaton, Encroach, Fourth Bridge Prowler

    1. Asthereal (TO): Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon
    - OTP Encroach wins. On the draw it doesn't. This will be a recurring theme... 3-3

    2. Wrath of Pie: Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
    - OTD I just lose. OTP I take Shelldock. You LED. I play Chronomaton, you draw Chronomaton, I level up (2), you draw Ulamog, I level up (3), you draw LED, I level up (4) you draw Shelldock and can go off again. So I don't win that one either, I don't think 0-6

    3. FTW: City of Traitors, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Inkwell Leviathan
    - OTP Encroach wins. On the draw it doesn't. 3-3

    4. Whoshim: Nether Spirit, Lingering Souls, Lion's Eye Diamond, Bridge From Below
    - I don't think I can beat this. It doesn't have a land :) 0-6

    6. H: Swamp, Encroach, Shrieking Affliction, Chronomaton
    - OTP I play Chronomaton. You can't play yours because of Prowler so you play Afflication. I level up. If you do nothing you die (Affliction doesn't deal damage as I have two cards in hand). If you play Chronoaton to force me to empty my hand you lose the race.
    - OTD I think the same happens. 6-0

    7. Tylert: City of traitors, Sphere of resistance, Chronomaton, Pithing needle
    - OTP Encroach wins. On the draw it doesn't. 3-3

    8. apple713: city of traitors, lionís eye diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    OTP I just lose to a bunch of zombies.
    OTP I take your land
    you make a zombie
    I make chronomaton
    you draw the Floorboards and attack (18)
    I level up (2)
    draw Emrakul and attack (16)
    I say go
    you draw City and say go, I level up (3)
    I attack (18) and play Prowler.
    You draw City and make three zombies and gain 3 life.
    I'm not winning that one. 0-6

    => Total: 15
    This decks matchup against LED was pretty bad!

    @H: I think a couple of your scores are wrong.
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  15. #575
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch View Post
    6. H: Swamp, Encroach, Shrieking Affliction, Chronomaton
    - OTP I play Chronomaton. You can't play yours because of Prowler so you play Afflication. I level up. If you do nothing you die (Affliction doesn't deal damage as I have two cards in hand). If you play Chronoaton to force me to empty my hand you lose the race.
    - OTD I think the same happens. 6-0

    @H: I think a couple of your scores are wrong.
    Oops, I forgot what Encroach actually says...
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  16. #576
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    1. Asthereal (TO): (Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon)
    On the play, Encroaching Nexus should win. On the draw, I lose. 3-3 (3)
    2. Wrath of Pie: (Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre)
    On the play, I take Isle and win. On the draw, I just lose. 3-3 (6)
    3. FTW: (City of Traitors, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Inkwell Leviathan)
    ON the play I take city and win. On the draw, too lose and lose. 3-3 (9)
    4. Whoshim: (Nether Spirit, Lingering Souls, Lion's Eye Diamond, Bridge From Below)
    Encroach is useless, so I think I lead on Chrono. You do your thing. I play Affliction on my turn. I can't really ever block. So, you have 4 damage per turn, but only if you let me swing with Chrono. So, I guess I also have 4 per turn. But I should likely make Chrono a 2/2, or maybe a 3/3 though. This one is complicated, I need to think about it more. Just swinging with the 2 Spirits can't race, so Spirit has to attack at some point.
    5. spirit of the wretch: (Swamp, Chronomaton, Encroach, Fourth Bridge Prowler)
    Well, we each win on the play. 3-3
    6. H: Bye, myself.
    7. Tylert: (City of traitors, Sphere of resistance, Chronomaton, Pithing needle)
    Win the the play, lose to Sphere on the draw. 3-3
    8. apple713: (city of traitors, lionís eye diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn)
    I think I win this on the play, because he can only get a 2/2 every three turns? On the Draw, I can't stop the land, and so 3 2/2s every three turns wins the race. Maybe. I have to think about this more too.
    Although you encroach my land and i only get a 2/2 on the first cycle, on my second cycle iíll get 3x 2/2ís because emrakul shuffles the discarded land. Still not sure if i win but ill certainly make more than 1x every 3 turns. Also, if i beat spirit of the wretch on the draw im likely to also beat you. Shriking affliction isnt always dealing damage because my hand is consyantly replenishing.

    @Asthereal you lose to wrath otd. T2 ulamog destroys inkmoth when cast.
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  17. #577
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Re-read the "doesn't lose to turn 0" section you quoted. FoW and Chancellor clearly shuts down those decks. The point is it becomes a "turn 0" format. Either you have a turn 0 answer or you lose the game before your first draw step. Sounds like a stale format.
    hey that could totaly be understood like: my 3 decks don't loose to turn 0: chancellor / fow.deck.
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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Opponent Deck OTP OTD Explanation
    1. Asthereal (TO) *Inkmoth Nexus,*Mountain,*Blazing Shoal,*Greater Gargadon L L
    2. Wrath of Pie *Shelldock Isle,*Chronomaton,*Lion's Eye Diamond,*Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre L L Shelldock so good!
    3. FTW *City of Traitors,*Lion's Eye Diamond,*Unburial Rites,*Inkwell Leviathan L L Because I cant attack into a defending inkwell I lose bothÖ
    4. Whoshim *Nether Spirit,*Lingering Souls,*Lion's Eye Diamond,*Bridge From Below W W If you attack with just lingering souls I'll get too wide for you. I also win he race if you try attacking with everything
    5. spirit of the wretch *Swamp,*Chronomaton,*Encroach,*Fourth Bridge Prowler W W See his math.
    6. H *Swamp,*Encroach,*Shrieking Affliction,*Chronomaton W W I can race chronomaton because he cant buff and attack. I get too wide.
    7. Tylert *City of traitors,*Sphere of resistance,*Chronomaton,*Pithing needle W W Even 2x 2/2's every 3 turns still beats chronomaton
    8. apple713 *city of traitors,*lionís eye diamond,*From Under the Floorboards,*Emrakul, the Aeons Torn X X
    Total Points: 24
    Win: 57.14%

    This deck seems alright. The CoT instead of another LED won me a match vs sphere of resistance but also lost me one vs inkwell.
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  19. #579

    Re: 4 Card Blind

    2. Wrath of Pie: Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

    1. Asthereal (TO): Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon WL - You lose on the play because of t2 Ulamog.
    3. FTW: City of Traitors, Lion's Eye Diamond, Unburial Rites, Inkwell Leviathan WW
    4. Whoshim: Nether Spirit, Lingering Souls, Lion's Eye Diamond, Bridge From Below WW
    5. spirit of the wretch: Swamp, Chronomaton, Encroach, Fourth Bridge Prowler WW - Encroach on my land just means I activate LED, draw it, and then do the normal hideaway shenanigans.
    6. H: Swamp, Encroach, Shrieking Affliction, Chronomaton WW - See above.
    7. Tylert: City of traitors, Sphere of resistance, Chronomaton, Pithing needle LL
    8. apple713: city of traitors, lionís eye diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn WW

    11w = 33 points, and Shelldock Isle should most definitely be banned.

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    Re: 4 Card Blind

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    2. Wrath of Pie: Shelldock Isle, Chronomaton, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

    1. Asthereal (TO): Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon WL - You lose on the play because of t2 Ulamog.
    EDIT EDIT: Pff... I need coffee.

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