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Thread: Quellblade

  1. #1
    Is Cancer

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    Quellblade

    Quellblade is a subgenre of Esper Deathblade defined by the Stifles, Bitterblossoms, Spellstutter Sprites, and Spell Quellers. Blossoms often carry the fair matches, giving your opponent reasons to interact with you while you interrupt them with Stutters, Quellers, and other counters. The core is still being defined a bit in experimenting, but the below as served me pretty well, with a running total of my complete record with the deck at the bottom.

    As you can see, the above is 56 cards and all of that seems agreed upon at the moment. The last slots are often some mix of the following:
    Other things people have tried include: Riptide Laboratory, Elspeth, Tombstalker, Moorland Haunt, Wasteland Strangler, and a few other randoms.

    I run and recommend a tutor board; which currently looks like:
    How did this come about?
    The idea came to me when I happen to win a pair of matches on a singleton test of Spell Queller when I was looking for my Card 61 in Bant. This got me considering the card more seriously. Initial testing had Spellstutter Sprite join in as copies 5-8 with the plan that they happen to eat the majority of the removal that can be directed at the Queller and are True-CA when they resolve without further interaction. 2-mana CA at instant speed that disrupts your opponent seems fine. Naturally these creatures pair well with Equips because Flash allows you to EoT them for the equip+swing, and Flying gives you evasion against most of the field, allowing you to reliably connect. Lastly, Spellstutter is much better with a little support and I needed tokens pretty badly. This brought me to Bitterblossom since I love the card anyway, and it has been amazing. The realization that finally started pushing me to reliable wins was that Stifle not only left us with more mana to use on dudes, unlike Daze restricting our mana, but that it had long-game application against CA (Snap, SFM, etc..) and could stop the Queller trigger.

    Lastly, needing Equips and early mana naturally brings us to the Deathblade 10-11 card shell.

    Why is this not Esper Deathblade?
    While the top level obvious bit of the Shell is the same, everything is really built around making Queller good, and making the deck work with him. DRS and SFM have instant speed activations, Spellstutter increases the number of cards on this plan, Bitterblossom closes fair games and makes stutter better, Stifle makes Queller better, etc..

    The Stifles, the Blossoms, the Queller, the Stutter, the low amount of removal, the extra SoFaI, these add up to a good 16-20 cards that shift you from a sorcery speed grindfest of Souls, Jace, Strix, Leo, TNN, Gurmag, and similar and instead making the entire deck play on your opponent's turn by sapping their mana for tempo and disruption, and swinging for the win while they stabilize.

    Every spell your opponent plays has to be under the scrutiny of "what if it doesn't resolve" and this deck allows you take advantages of the mistakes they make or the deep lines they enter, by giving them a dead end and swinging with evasive board presence they didn't know you had.

    Tips:
    * Be wary of adding big sorcery speed spells, this deck wants lots of open mana

    * Careful with Equip costs for the same reason when you play it

    * Don't be afraid to cast Queller or Sprite as blockers, or just dudes to equip. That's built into the design. If there's nothing to counter and you need to put pressure on the board, do it. I often play out the first queller if the opponent skips their turn and I have a second, just to start putting pressure on the board so the opponent will play cards into my counters again.

    * The deck likes to sideboard pretty heavily vs Combo of all kinds. Drop the Plows, maybe the Stifles, the SFMs, the Equips, Blossoms depending on the deck, and load up. Even Containment priests are pretty good against Storm or similar, because you can hold mana open and drop a threat if they don't do anything.

    * Be very careful when your opponent has equips. Using tempo advantage from Blossom or locking them out of creatures are about your only options at that point.

    * Early SFM->BSK is a good way to hold open mana and get your opponent to waste a turn killing her, bridging you either into a BSK if they don't kill it, or to your third mana for Queller/Stutter.

    * Prioritize early Bitterblossom. It improves your Stutters, is rarely able to be dealt with, and if it sticks you are highly likely to win IME. It also puts your opponent in the position that the need to react to you sooner than later; allowing you to counter their spells as they try to claw the game back.

    * Good rule of thumb: Stutter whatever you can as early as you can; late game stutters can be used in more interesting ways; but start by putting your opponent off balance.

    * Stifle has lots of late game usage. Look for stifling Snap, SFM, BSK, and similar triggers; as well as your own Queller when it dies.

    * The deck has a secondary game plan of Stifle+Wasteland and usually plays a somewhat tempo oriented game; albeit a ponderous one.

    * Be aware that Stutter by itself will often not accrue CA if they have removal, as they can kill it in response to the trigger, making the target illegal on the intervening If clause. This means that without multiple Stutters, Tokens, or a Blossom, you should be ready for him not to counter the spell. However, the good news is that they're pushing, plowing, bolting, or decaying a 1/1 flyer.

    * Your opponents with Decay can't hit all of your Blossoms and Equips, and likely also not all your dudes. Call their bluff and bluff your own Queller.

    * Queller used early enough can set up other counter spells in response to removal directed at him. For instance, did he eat a Plow? When they direct a Decay at him with your Stutter in hand, you can Stutter that plow and disrupt the game plan they were hoping to achieve. The Opp is planning/relying on getting to cast the card under queller, so plan your sprite, force, stifle, queller, or charm around the idea that you can stop that card if it's game changing.

    * Queller EXILES spells. Plan for this when dealing with PFire, Loam, or Lingering Souls to keep them from recurring, plan on it for Supreme Verdict or Decay to get by their restriction, or on the other side of things be conscious of Misthollow Griffin. That would be a sad time.

    Matchup Analysis
    The deck tends to do well against Combo decks, Tempo decks, and some Midrange decks, while having weaknesses to permanent based control/prison decks, Decay+Goyf decks, being mildly unfavored against Control decks, and being weak to Eldrazi decks in general.

    Elves - 80-20 - You wouldn't believe me until you play it, but I'm 7-0 in official matches so far against Elves, ~14-3 in games. This deck is to Elves what D&T is to Sneakshow. The -1/-1 effects we require for D&T decks hit here, the S&T sideboard hits here, the Grave sideboard hits here, and the maindeck is brutal. Flying + Counterspells everywhere + Jitte/SoFaI is a nightmare. Every card is counterable by Spellstutter, the ability to boardwipe them with Jitte happens constantly, and Queller hits everything but GSZ/Natural Hoof, which Forces can be saved for since your Stutters and Quellers should take care of their other combo options. If you hate Elves, this is the deck for you. As a cavern deck, they will often think they're immune and Queller can be funny right there.
    NOTE: Tight play is required here. Unlike D&T v Sneakshow where you may just win while new to the game because the S&T player got unlucky, you need to know when they'll combo off so you hold up mana appropriately. You'll often only win after they've gone off once or twice and you've countered it. The games are fairly intense because if you goof, you die.

    Goblns - 70-30 - We have every permanent they hate and we actively carry -1/-1 effects for other decks, Priests, and Needles for other decks, and they lack the ability to deal with Blossom, BSK, Jitte, or SoFaI reliably; in which cases we often have Stifle or Queller. As a Cavern deck they often cast haymakers into a Queller.

    Reanimator - 65-35- or better - Blossom is brutal, you have loads of counterspells and Stutter hits almost everything without support. Plows and Forces help a lot early on.

    RUG/Grixis Delver
    - 60 -40 - They don't have outs to Blossom and often run into your spells.

    Lands - 60-40 - This one is about getting some basics online, keeping their loam engine under wraps, and either locking up their recursive spells with Queller, DRS, or getting Blossom online. Prioritize keeping Tabernacle off the board since you have to go wide, and close things out early. If the game drags they will eventually have Loam + Mazes + Tabernacle + Lage, and you can't win. Good news is they honestly can't beat blossom most of the time; especially if you use that with Stutter + Queller to keep their spells from resolving. Stifle is a good tempo play here too, buying you a turn for Lage, Pfire, Wasteland, etc.

    D&T
    - 50-50 - Super close games. We're blue D&T essentially. Everything they do to avoid disruption awkwardly meets our counterspells and stifles to disrupt them, however we suffer from Shitty-Dude-Syndrome too. Both decks die to Jitte very fast and it's a tempo game to make sure they don't get it online. At the same time, if they don't, Blossom will win you the day eventually in most cases.

    Infect - 50-50 - We have a lot of interaction points with them, but if they have the nuts then the lack of Daze can really show here. Stutter is often not live, making active T1 DRS a big deal so you can quell on T2 and stabilize if they go for it. Stutter their cantrips and save wastes for Inkmoths. It will be an intense match unless they just crush you early.

    UWr, UWb, Stoneblade variants, Grixis Control - 50-50- Really depends on how the draws line up. Sometimes they can't resolve anything and other times they have 12 Snapcasters, Blossoms are huge in these MUs to get Stutters up to appropriate CMCs, Quellers are good for planeswalkers but often don't survive, so consider queller to be a convenience or a flash-equipper a lot of the time. Counter TNNs best as you can and use removal on SFMs. Kolaghan's command is a beating and difficult to beat; but they won't always have it, or have an answer for Queller. Chill helps against 'r' variants since they'll be unable to effectively pryoblast things.

    Storm - 50-50 - Our counters are mostly a little slow, but if they go off early into a Stifle/Force they will be upset. The early game spells tend to buy time for the multitude of other counters to come online; and once you have 2-3 counters, especially if they're different types, the deck locks down the game pretty hard.

    BUG Delver - 40-60 - Decay + Delver + Goyf is a pain. Blossom in the grave is bad, but what's worse is that you need it on the field. DRS can hit you around Blossom on top of it and often a single Goyf hit is pretty much GG since you'll lack the time to stabilze. On the other end, Blossom and SFM are both brutal against their deck when they don't have the appropriate answer in time or you Quell it.

    Chalice decks that aren't Eldrazi -40-60- These guys are often running Moons or non-basic hate; but we run basics. The bad part is we also run 1-drops enough to often be crippled by it. The lack of Daze is an important factor in the negative side of this. If you get rolling or drop a blossom while they're durdling waiting for a win con though, you'll kill em still.

    Eldrazi - 20-80 - Good fucking luck. Our deck abuses the fact Legacy is a game of low-costed spells and Eldrazi does that too, but is also high costed spells. Add the extreme speed and the fact one of their regular beaters has Trample and stabilizing is next to impossible.

    Enchantress -20-80- Notable only because of how bad it is. While you will counter stuff, you ultimately will succumb to Confinement as they draw a million cards regardless of what you do. I board in Serenitys in MTGO Practice since Enchantress players can't win leagues, but troll the practice area.


    Hope you enjoy and Quell some Spells! The deck is almost entirely instant speed and it feels like a dream to be holding a mix of threats and counterspells up for most anything your opp does.

    Personal Tournament records so far: [as of 7/2]
    Local Tournament Performance: 3-1, 3-0, 3-0-1, 3-0-1 (ID), 2-1
    MTGO League Record: 3-2, 3-2, 4-1, 4-1, 0-3, 4-1, 3-2, 4-1, 3-2
    Total Local: 14-2-2
    Total mtgoL: 28-15
    Last edited by tescrin; 07-06-2017 at 01:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  2. #2

    Re: Quellblade

    Hi,

    I am testing this deck and I have to say it is awesome. I've had very good results against D&T, storm, burn, grixis, reanimator....

    I really like it. The only "bad" thing I see is the fact that ww use 61 cards and I like playing with 60 but I don't know what to choose out.

    I will keep an eye on the thread for further updates and if I can help with updates and matchups too I will do

  3. #3
    The Fire of Justice Burns Like Nothing Else
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    Re: Quellblade

    Very cool deck tescrin.

    What do you think about Vendilion Clique in this?

  4. #4
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    Re: Quellblade

    @Ling - I'd drop the Riptide or a Dimir Charm. They're the main flex slots. If you find a nifty innovation, let me know!

    @Seraphix - I like it, but it's not disimilar from spell queller while making it weaker to -x/-1 effects, which is debatable. Trying it in the flex slots seems fine. I'll say that right now, everything that dies to those effects doesn't care much. Snap usually did it's job, Sprite is the same way, and Blossom lives through them; often requiring two answers to really answer. It's part of the reason TNN's aren't in the deck as well (that and sorcery speed.)

    ______

    Played tonight to 3-0-1 (intentional draw), beating UBx Delver 2-0 (he didn't show me a third color and wouldn't tell me after the match), 2-0 Wbr D&T, and 2-1 Food Chain. Card 61 (was Riptide) was Tasigur.

    UBx
    G1 - I think he kept shakey mana. I see an early ponder. I play a DRS that gets dazed. He plays a Brainstorm, I play a second DRS that resolves. Game on. I waste his USea keeping up Sprite. Nothing happens and he dies to BSK fairly soon after
    G2 - I Plow a delver, he decays my T2 blossom, I drop another BSK or something IIRC and he can't get things to resolve.

    Wrb
    G1 - I start land heavy, importantly with a plains and Plow in hand. We durdle a tiny bit and I have blossom out. He lands Magus (Ouch.) but I have the natural Plains + Plow. He has a bad time shortly thereafter as a Jitte gets found/equipped
    G2 - My hand has a SoFaI in it and a Blossom IIRC, I get an early blossom moving and he does something like Revoker on SFM, Recruiter, SFM grabbing Jitte I think, casting the Jitte and attach it to my single Token who was sick. I draw land #5 and cast/equip SoFaI on it and wipe his board. GG. I stifled something nasty in here, but I don't remember what it was.

    Food Chain
    G1 - I didn't realize he was food chain, and my counters are not lined up properly. I take 500,000,000 damage
    G2 - I remember that he starts casting Misthollow Griffins to block my Quellers but I Quell one, Plow another, and then waste him to 3 mana. He brainlocks himself hoping to get unstuck and dies to flyers as my board grows.
    G3 - Somewhat similar story. Blossom + Jitte starts swinging for 5-6 a turn. By the time he gets his Misthollows able to block he's at 6, and DRS's drain him the rest of the way. Canonist hold him off the win IIRC.



    Only thoughts were that the 4th stifle as card 61 will come back in while I still play with things. Stifle is a big deal for the deck and I haven't found myself unhappy to have it. Between BSKs, Queller, lands, SCM, and wastelands; it's got a lot of late-game snaz and we keep the mana open anyway. I think the Dimir Charms can probably find a slightly better card, (Brutality?) but it does ok.


    EDIT/PS: I will likely be quiet on this for about a week as locals will probably not fire while everyone is at the GP. I will instead be playing Dark Souls or something :D
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  5. #5

    Re: Quellblade

    Thanks for posting this deck. As soon as I saw it I knew I had to try it out.

    I played it at FNM last night with some minor changes, mostly some SB cards I'm missing.

    W 2-1 UB Reanimator - Game 1 I didn't have enough disruption, games 2 and 3 I had mono hate cards.
    W 2-0 4c Deathblade - Game 1 I kept him off his mana with Stifle, Wasteland, and killing 2 or 3 early mana dorks. Game 2 wasn't looking great when he got an early Jitte out, but he got stuck on 2 land and eventually I stabilized with BB and my own Jitte.
    L 1-2 Czech Pile - From what I remember, all three games were close. Game 3 I mulled to 5 on the play and punted late game, partially because I was rushing because we were about to go to time. Fun matchup, though.
    W 2-0 ANT - I'd rather not talk about this one too much; we both joked about how awful we played, haha. Amusing thing of note was game 2: I mull to 6 and snap keep a hand with 2 Canonists. Of course he leads with Probe/Therapy. Ended up not mattering though.

    Not enough games yet for me to really make any adjustments, but I'll probably keep playing this for a while. Any thoughts on Zealous Persecution in the SB? I threw in a couple to fill in for cards I didn't own. I figured it'd be a nice answer for TNN, it's a blowout against some decks in general, and with BB can win out of nowhere in some edge cases. I guess it kind of competes with Engineered Plague, though.
    Last edited by Jander78; 06-29-2017 at 05:11 PM.

  6. #6
    Is Cancer

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    Re: Quellblade

    If you liked ZP I'd be happy to know what slots you tried it in?

    ZP seems great, especially with all the mediocre beaters in the deck; making it easy to steal the boardstate or to swing for lethal a turn or three earlier. Currently the deck normally has to dig out of bad boardstates with equips. Against Lingering Souls it can have issues if you didn't get a Blossom online. ZP's instant speed and only requiring a single color of each mana is good.

    Slots I'd consider putting in: Chill, Priest #2, Humility, Tutor #2
    I honestly haven't used Humility much, so I'm down on it right now. Tutor #2 hasn't gotten to see the matches it's there for (Belcher/Storm/Reanimator/Dredge)

    This week I'll be making card 61 Stifle #4 again because I think it really helps glue things together and I'm trying to fit a Dread of Night into the side because I'm seeing a mix of Monastery Monk, Lingering Souls, (2-3 players between those) and a rise of D&T/Maverick/DGA (think I saw 3/1/1 out of 25ish last Sat.) It's a little sad to nerf my SFMs and Quellers, so I'm not married to it; but it's a lot meaner to the opponent and it really cuts their ability to grind with Blossom.


    Glad you're enjoying it! Let me know where you slotted in things and how they felt. I'll get to give this deck another go on Thursday
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  7. #7
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    Re: Quellblade

    I played this to a 2-2 finish at fnm Friday. Beat Sneak and Show & High Tide, lost to BUG Delver and Goblins. Both losses were very closely contested though.

    I liked the deck a lot. It was very resilient and felt mostly good. Only complaints I truly have are in the land base feeling slightly clunky and the inept beaters.

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  8. #8
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    Re: Quellblade

    It might be 3 basics is too many; but I should mention that I know that in 35 or so regulars there are Back to Basics in ~2 lists, Moons in a few lists (Stompy, Sneakshow, Topless, Wrb D&T), a couple more D&T players, and multiple (~2-3) lands players, and often 2+ Nic Fit players; before you include the expected Delvers and whatnot. Between the Nic Fits and Moons I feel pretty obligated to run those basics, and fetching Swamp->DRS has saved me a few times in Delver games. There's also 1-3 Burn players (one dedicated, 2 that play on meta-calls/trolling haha)

    So it may be right in a less strange meta to cut the Plains and maybe even the Island.

    I think BUG Delver is one of the worst fair MUs, between Decay hitting Blossom and equips and Goyf becoming huge as a result. There's a weird push/pull with removal in regards to Delver as well, since you often want 3 1/1 blockers to hedge against removal. More data is always good though! I'm mildly surprised by Goblins, but I can see that.


    If you have any notes on BUG or how the Sneakshow MU played I'd appreciate it. I've been waiting to play against Sneakshow and am mildly nervous about dropping my humility from the side.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  9. #9
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    Re: Quellblade

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    It might be 3 basics is too many; but I should mention that I know that in 35 or so regulars there are Back to Basics in ~2 lists, Moons in a few lists (Stompy, Sneakshow, Topless, Wrb D&T), a couple more D&T players, and multiple (~2-3) lands players, and often 2+ Nic Fit players; before you include the expected Delvers and whatnot. Between the Nic Fits and Moons I feel pretty obligated to run those basics, and fetching Swamp->DRS has saved me a few times in Delver games. There's also 1-3 Burn players (one dedicated, 2 that play on meta-calls/trolling haha)

    So it may be right in a less strange meta to cut the Plains and maybe even the Island.

    I think BUG Delver is one of the worst fair MUs, between Decay hitting Blossom and equips and Goyf becoming huge as a result. There's a weird push/pull with removal in regards to Delver as well, since you often want 3 1/1 blockers to hedge against removal. More data is always good though! I'm mildly surprised by Goblins, but I can see that.


    If you have any notes on BUG or how the Sneakshow MU played I'd appreciate it. I've been waiting to play against Sneakshow and am mildly nervous about dropping my humility from the side.
    Sure! I actually lost game 1 quickly, won game two by nabbing a Jace with Spell Queller and putting in the one of detention sphere I sided in off of his Show and Tell. Game three I tutored humility and held it in hand and honestly he was kind of locked out.

    Goblins was actually pretty crazy. I lost game 1 to double Piledriver. Game two I won by equipping Batterskull and Fire and Ice to a Bitterblossom token even through 18 or so Krenko gobbys. Game 3 he got me pretty good with back to back Ringleaders that each hit three goblins.

    BUG delver I just struggled to resolve any answer to Deathrite and died to it both of the games I lost.

    Honestly, I was thinking about cutting the Swamp. But I need to play some more! I enjoyed the deck overall.


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  10. #10
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    Re: Quellblade

    I've been seriously considering a DSphere somewhere (probably in card 61 or in DCharm #2), especially with me considering removing Humility for Dread of Night. It plays well with Stifle and is another token-sweep and a reasonable answer. I'm a little meh about the 3-mana Sorcery speed and I've tried it a bit before; but it was before I had stifles in the mix. Btw, if you ran Chill, definitely bring chill in against S&T. Chill screws up REBs, Sneak (6-mana), and pyroclasms.

    I think my side plan was something like:
    -4 SFM
    -3 Equips
    -1 (or 2) Stifle and/or Wasteland

    +2 Needle
    +2 Containment Priest
    +2 Canonist
    +1 Chill
    +1 Tutor
    (+1 Humility)

    If you can put them in a position where they have to resolve S&T because Sneak is too expensive/turned off, then you have ~12 answers to S&T (force, quell, priest, Charm) before considering Humility or something in hand. Disrupt cantrips with Stutters and use mediocre flyers + Stifle to survive Emrakul if you're lucky enough.


    Side Note: Charms were a hedge between removal for Delver/D&T and counters for Topless/Combo. I feel like it's the wrong cards in those slots, but have a hard time cutting them because my limited testing has shown them to be fine.

    EDIT: I think I'm gonna lock my choices for Thursday in at:
    Main: Stifle #4
    Side: -2 Submerge, +1 Dread of Night, +1 Darkblast

    Darkblast adequately covers two of the reasons I was running Submerge at all (Infect and Elves) and I shouldn't be too wary of Marit Lage anyway (and lands often doesn't have a forest on the field to boot.) While Submerge is better for BUG MUs, it's probably not a game-breaking difference. Darkblasts' utility against D&T and Grixis delver, while being *ok* removal for Delver seems good enough to try out. The fact it's also good against D&T is a bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  11. #11

    Re: Quellblade

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    If you liked ZP I'd be happy to know what slots you tried it in?

    ZP seems great, especially with all the mediocre beaters in the deck; making it easy to steal the boardstate or to swing for lethal a turn or three earlier. Currently the deck normally has to dig out of bad boardstates with equips. Against Lingering Souls it can have issues if you didn't get a Blossom online. ZP's instant speed and only requiring a single color of each mana is good.

    Slots I'd consider putting in: Chill, Priest #2, Humility, Tutor #2
    I just threw in 2 ZPs to help fill in for cards I didn't own, so there isn't any insight to be gained there, haha. I had them in the SB for an Esper Mentor deck put together from the week before; just kind of shrugged figuring they'd be okay here too. Coincidentally, the cards I didn't have were Humility and the two Enlightened Tutors. Personally I wouldn't cut Priest, but only because Sneak and Show and Reanimator are popular locally. Disenchant was the other one I threw in, solid card but nothing exciting.

    But yeah, ZP just seems like it has a lot of applications:

    Delver - Depends on the variant, but is probably just okay in any case. Can kill Delver and Mongoose before they turn on, answers both YP and his army, TNN.
    D&T - Doesn't kill everything, but certainly enough to be good.
    Maverick - Less good than vs. D&T, Thalia and Mom mainly, also mana dorks and Dryad Arbor.
    Stoneblade - Really depends on the build, but kills TNN, Snapcaster, VClique, Strix. ETB guys already did their job, so mainly there for TNN, but killing the others is a nice bonus.
    Grixis - Same as Stoneblade, except for YP instead of TNN. Taking out the SB Lavamancer is nice too.
    Infect - Kills everything if you time it right (except Corrupter), but realistically probably just eats a pump spell or counterspell, which is still fine.
    Goblins - They're mostly x/2s but have a few x/1s as well. Can maybe set up some good blocks for the x/2s though.
    Elves - Obviously great, one of my main reasons for wanting it.
    Storm/Belcher - Probably not good, but it does clean up after Empty the Warrens and can help with some of the oddball creatures they have hanging out in the SB sometimes (Xantid Swarm, Bob, Mentor).

    As far as the mana base goes, I thought it felt fine, although I didn't run into any nonbasic land hate outside a Wasteland or two. In theory I like having one of each basic to fetch for, though.

    I won't have anything to add for a while since we only get Legacy FNMs every other week, but I'll keep at it.

  12. #12

    Re: Quellblade

    This actually seems somewhat similar to Spiritblade. I haven't tried your list yet but my experience with spiritblade has been that it's pretty strong against grixis delver (especially if you're splashing black for more removal/ZP) and very strong against combo. The only issue I've had, and I'm not sure if you experience similar problems, is decks that fight with really strong creatures, such as eldrazi or bant/junk.

  13. #13
    Is Cancer

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    Re: Quellblade

    It's superficially similar due to Queller + SFM, but I think that's where the similarities stop.

    The short version:
    Spiritblade plays a lot of 1-drops that affect Instants/Sorceries, are x/1's, and it didn't play Stifles or Stutters or Snaps. Stutters/Snaps/Blossom offers a lot of CA opportunities and morph the way the deck plays out very substantially.

    Long form version:
    Blossom
    Blossom in particular is a huge differentiating card. While you can jam that into Spiritblade and probably make it better; blossom is less likely to incur a negative cost here since Snap/Stutter accumulate CA if they resolve. Most games, IME, this is really a Bitterblossom deck that counters all your stuff, or a SFM deck that counters all your stuff.

    Stutter
    Stutter, unlike Familiar/Wanderer, is not only a guaranteed counter (barring them removing in response to the trigger and no other Fae) but can also hit Creatures, Artifacts, Enchants, and Walkers. One last thing about Stutter is that it doesn't get much worse as the game goes on, and if you land more than one or get a Blossom, it in fact gets quite good.

    DRS
    While it may not seem like much to go from Stoneblade to Deathblade, there's a lot of play here to consider. DRS gives you more to do with your mana while you hold it open and brings Queller down a turn earlier if he lives.

    All the Flash and a mana screw
    Lastly, another major difference is that Spiritblade runs quite a lot of sorcery speed things. Stifle, of course, just makes Queller better while giving game against opposing SFMs (which is important when you lack cards that kill equipment) while giving the deck a secondary opportunistic playstyle of Stifle + Wasteland + DRS* + Snap, allowing it to hose opposing manabases to reasonable efficacy (and also protect its own.)
    *[DRS can cancel opposing DRS mana-activations to go the manascrew route]

    Summary
    I think Spiritblade probably has a better combo game due to MMages and lot of T1 Daze/Speirce-Dudes; but will suffer much more heavily to Lingering Souls, -1/-1 effects, and be weaker to Vial and Equip decks (mostly on the back of Stifle.) Spiritblade runs a more threat-dense deck and far less CA; but can beat a little better in the early game due to Wanderer's possible pumps. This causes that deck to be more Aggro oriented. This deck however, due to the CA and "draw-go" nature of it, tends to drag the game until Equips or Blossom (or small beats and DRS) eventually kill the opponent. Spiritblade is Proactive since it has to cast it's threats which then interact with the stack without mana, and this deck is Reactive, picking at the opponent while attempting to lock the stack down.

    This actually ends up making this deck pretty good at grinding since it doesn't care if your opponent casts a Planeswalker instead of an Instant. The difference between casting a Sprite and nipping a loam vs. saccing your threat is big. The difference between beating early but (potentially) watching helplessly as a Jitte falls onto the battlefield vs. waiting with a Sprite for 2-3 turns and killing the Jitte is very difference.

    I think I'd like Spiritblade a bit more if it dropped Familiar, and went for Lingering Souls to add grind-power and make Wanderer a much faster beater; but that's another deck and another thread :D

    [Note: I haven't gotten to face much Eldrazi/Junk/etc. so we'll see. I did beat Sneakfit pretty handily and have fought my share of Goyfs, BSKs, and TNNs so far. Plows are good like you'd expect, and Snap helps a bit. A lot of the deck is catered around the idea that you'll be able to counter threats in a chain and keep the nasties off the table. This actually makes Angler/Tasigur/Mandrills much more dangerous to this deck, given that your Sprites aren't usually big enough counters and your Queller can't hit them. For the Marit Lage/Tombstalker/Tasigur/Angler problem, Bitterblossom sufficies pretty well. For Mandrills I'd probably go for BSK if I got the chance.]


    EDIT: It looks like I'm busy this week. I'm in the midst of selling a load of staples in paper Mtg that I have too many duplicates of etc.. so I can use that as "free money" and buy the deck Online. I'd really like to get lots of testing (even in the weird online meta) so I can determine and/or prove it's viability.
    Last edited by tescrin; 06-22-2017 at 10:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  14. #14
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    Re: Quellblade

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    It's superficially similar due to Queller + SFM, but I think that's where the similarities stop.

    The short version:
    Spiritblade plays a lot of 1-drops that affect Instants/Sorceries, are x/1's, and it didn't play Stifles or Stutters or Snaps. Stutters/Snaps/Blossom offers a lot of CA opportunities and morph the way the deck plays out very substantially.

    Long form version:
    Blossom
    Blossom in particular is a huge differentiating card. While you can jam that into Spiritblade and probably make it better; blossom is less likely to incur a negative cost here since Snap/Stutter accumulate CA if they resolve. Most games, IME, this is really a Bitterblossom deck that counters all your stuff, or a SFM deck that counters all your stuff.

    Stutter
    Stutter, unlike Familiar/Wanderer, is not only a guaranteed counter (barring them removing in response to the trigger and no other Fae) but can also hit Creatures, Artifacts, Enchants, and Walkers. One last thing about Stutter is that it doesn't get much worse as the game goes on, and if you land more than one or get a Blossom, it in fact gets quite good.

    DRS
    While it may not seem like much to go from Stoneblade to Deathblade, there's a lot of play here to consider. DRS gives you more to do with your mana while you hold it open and brings Queller down a turn earlier if he lives.

    All the Flash and a mana screw
    Lastly, another major difference is that Spiritblade runs quite a lot of sorcery speed things. Stifle, of course, just makes Queller better while giving game against opposing SFMs (which is important when you lack cards that kill equipment) while giving the deck a secondary opportunistic playstyle of Stifle + Wasteland + DRS* + Snap, allowing it to hose opposing manabases to reasonable efficacy (and also protect its own.)
    *[DRS can cancel opposing DRS mana-activations to go the manascrew route]

    Summary
    I think Spiritblade probably has a better combo game due to MMages and lot of T1 Daze/Speirce-Dudes; but will suffer much more heavily to Lingering Souls, -1/-1 effects, and be weaker to Vial and Equip decks (mostly on the back of Stifle.) Spiritblade runs a more threat-dense deck and far less CA; but can beat a little better in the early game due to Wanderer's possible pumps. This causes that deck to be more Aggro oriented. This deck however, due to the CA and "draw-go" nature of it, tends to drag the game until Equips or Blossom (or small beats and DRS) eventually kill the opponent. Spiritblade is Proactive since it has to cast it's threats which then interact with the stack without mana, and this deck is Reactive, picking at the opponent while attempting to lock the stack down.

    This actually ends up making this deck pretty good at grinding since it doesn't care if your opponent casts a Planeswalker instead of an Instant. The difference between casting a Sprite and nipping a loam vs. saccing your threat is big. The difference between beating early but (potentially) watching helplessly as a Jitte falls onto the battlefield vs. waiting with a Sprite for 2-3 turns and killing the Jitte is very difference.

    I think I'd like Spiritblade a bit more if it dropped Familiar, and went for Lingering Souls to add grind-power and make Wanderer a much faster beater; but that's another deck and another thread :D

    [Note: I haven't gotten to face much Eldrazi/Junk/etc. so we'll see. I did beat Sneakfit pretty handily and have fought my share of Goyfs, BSKs, and TNNs so far. Plows are good like you'd expect, and Snap helps a bit. A lot of the deck is catered around the idea that you'll be able to counter threats in a chain and keep the nasties off the table. This actually makes Angler/Tasigur/Mandrills much more dangerous to this deck, given that your Sprites aren't usually big enough counters and your Queller can't hit them. For the Marit Lage/Tombstalker/Tasigur/Angler problem, Bitterblossom sufficies pretty well. For Mandrills I'd probably go for BSK if I got the chance.]


    EDIT: It looks like I'm busy this week. I'm in the midst of selling a load of staples in paper Mtg that I have too many duplicates of etc.. so I can use that as "free money" and buy the deck Online. I'd really like to get lots of testing (even in the weird online meta) so I can determine and/or prove it's viability.
    I'll be playing this again tonight, but I have been thinking about a Stasis Snare in the board over Detention Sphere given the draw-go nature of the deck. Thoughts?
    Once you go Legacy...

  15. #15
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    Re: Quellblade

    I think I'd rather go DSphere if it's in the board. Reasoning being that you're mostly going to bring it in vs. grindy MUs and SneakShow I think; and against Sneakshow DSphere still hits SneakAttack; increasing the "Got'im!" chances. In grindy MUs, I found that DSphere's ability to eat a pack of Lingering Souls was good enough and in grindy-MUs it allows you to answer equipment. DSphere can also come in against Storm as an anti-gobbo tutorable permanent with or instead of EPlague; being slightly better since it can pitch to Force. Lastly, DSphere plays with Stifle which is fairly nice against Flickerwisp or similar.

    I don't think Stasis Snare is bad, and it synergizes with the way the deck wants to play, but I think DSphere's wide application is probably better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  16. #16
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    Re: Quellblade

    Clique outperforms Spell Queller - easily.
    * 50% more power? Check.
    * No off-color? Check.
    * Sprite synergy? Check.
    ---
    -1-1 effects do not make SQ more desirable, period.
    Last edited by klaus; 06-24-2017 at 01:28 AM.

  17. #17
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    Re: Quellblade

    Quote Originally Posted by klaus View Post
    Clique outperforms Spell Queller - easily.
    * 150% more power? Check.
    * No off-color? Check.
    * Sprite synergy? Check.
    While I appreciate the snide and uninformed post, you could try the deck rather than trolling. Hell, you could try the *card* rather than trolling.

    Queller often generates 3-4 mana of tempo, survives Pfire/KComm/Lavaman/Forked Bolt/Charm/ZP/etc, nips Decays, and doesn't die to every 2/x and flying token in the game. Further, if they cast something that can kill it, the deck supplies you with ample responses to either keep him alive or keep the opponent from getting their card. Queller actively generates CA unless answered and often, since you played it on your opponent's turn, they can't answer it until their untap step; where you'll have all of your mana open for the next Sprite/Queller/etc. Queller can drop down and munch most legacy creatures without dying, and can ambush things like Thalia and Mirran Crusader. Some cards (which I've already gotten to experience several times) are also really nasty for your opponent to recast, such as Crop Rotation, pump spells, removal with an empty board, Natural Order, Counter-spells, Toxic Deluge; or other cases such as when Canonist is on the field.

    Lastly, you can run more than 2 in a deck without issues and can have a bunch on the field. I've won a few games where it's just double-queller swinging over the top.



    It's been known in Legacy that Counterspells are far greater than Discard for a very long time. These two creatures embody every positive and negative trait of those; such as Clique losing to brainstorm, Clique being cast with bad information, and Clique requiring opponents to have a hand with non-instants to interact. Queller instead forces your opponent to commit (such as having 2 S&T or two dudes that can come in off of S&T if in response, you don't just lose anyway), eats your opponent's mana, and has (fairly often) perfect information as to what you need to be concerned about. Dumb things like your opponent casting a strix to cantrip can just be stopped so they not only don't have the card they expected, they don't have the card they wanted to draw.

    Regardless, if I can't convince you to even *try* it then so be it. I don't have to convert you to the card to determine for myself if it's good; and it seems to be.

    Clique is probably a better card as a 1-off in a random deck because it requires no support and does the same thing no matter when you cast it, sort of. Queller, I believe, is much better in any draw-go style deck, a better card for equips due to having a relevant toughness, and a better build-around-me card since multiples of it are good, rather than multiples of it actively bad.
    Last edited by tescrin; 06-24-2017 at 02:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  18. #18

    Re: Quellblade

    Quote Originally Posted by klaus View Post
    Clique outperforms Spell Queller - easily.
    * 150% more power? Check.
    * No off-color? Check.
    * Sprite synergy? Check.
    ---
    -1-1 effects do not make SQ more desirable, period.
    I like how you phrase "has 3 power instead of 2 power" as "150% more power" which is a hilarious way to exaggerate the benefit, and also wrong, Clique has 50% more power, and 150% the total power. It does not, in fact, have 150% more power. Because you appear to be very bad at math, I'll just supply the correct answer of 150% more power than Queller = 5 power.

  19. #19
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    Re: Quellblade

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Clique has 50% more power
    Fixed.

    @tescrin:
    Most of your points are valid, and, admittedly, I was too quick to bash SQ. Both cards have their merits. While I'll likely never become a proponent of that spell or the archetype in general, I do respect your efforts going into your list.
    I could go further into detail about Clique's kickassness, but don't want to derail this thread's deck development potential.

    That being said, I truly wanted to make Sprite and Bitterblossom work in a Blade shell for a while. Unfortunately both spells almost always underperformed. The main reason being that the clock tended to be too slow ("hello Clique"), and fast Aggro stomped me so hard, I added Surpreme Verdict to the SB, and still usually lost without standing a chance.
    The Combo MU of such decks is traditionally favored, same goes for various Control MUs.
    Aggro Control and dedicated Aggro should probably be addressed in your further iterations. STP #4 in the MD should be a step in the right direction.

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    Re: Quellblade

    [Apologies that my tone may have been harsh.]

    Well, I can't promise it'll be good, just that early tournament results were a lot better than anticipated. I hope you'll keep an eye out at some point on the meager chance it is doing well, as you sound interested in the Stutter/Blossom concept. I should be able to generate more data fairly soon as I sold 3 Bayou, 2 Scrubland, 1 Badlands, 4 Mox Opal, and a bunch of random $10-15 cards; so I'm sitting right about what it'll take to buy it on Mtgo. I'm a bit nervous about doing so, but I guess it was bound to happen.

    I'm not sure which aggro decks you're speaking of though, if you have recommended MUs I'd be happy to pay special attention to them. It's been doing average against Delver of various kinds (UR, UB, Grixis, BUG), and did fine against DGA and D&T. Small sample sizes of course, but outside of fringe like Merfolk/Goblins, my best guesses are UR Delver, Burn, or random non-blue Goyf decks.

    I think it's worst MUs are probably MonoW D&T, BUG Delver (Decay + Goyf v Bitterblossom seems like a natural enemy), Something like Tezzerator seems bad, and Czech Pile seemed potentially bad since there's so much CA to overcome. BR Reanimator could also go badly, but I really have no experience there. turbo-Moon decks and if a Legacy deck started spamming or turboing Ebridge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

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