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Thread: Modern Horizons Spoilers

  1. #101
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I disagree on 2 specific points:
    1) it should have been a zombie, it fits flavor-wise and mechanically with recursive zombies, ie: Gravecrawler
    2) its playable for sure. Where? I don't know for certain but i know it will be tried in DGA alongside lingering souls. A menace 1 drop for equipment with relevant disruptive ability? Its a DGA players wet dream.
    Sure, a zombie would have been better flavor - wise. I just wish it was a goblin because goblins is the deck that notoriously need some form of maindeck goblin-shaped combo hate.
    If it was a zombie, would probably get played in zombardment, but that deck doesn't need the card so desperately. You can play good old cabal therapy in zombardment ; in goblins, you can't, because for the deck to work you need to be playing basically all goblins.
    I highly doubt the card will see play in non-tribal decks like deadguy ale, but we'll see i guess.

  2. #102

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Containment Priest getting printed in Horizons - which is likely - pretty much beats the ever living heck out of Dredge and Phoenix. Tron is always a problem just waiting on the wrong colorless card to get printed. It's possible to print stuff that hates on all the big decks in the same set.
    And then they can unban Golgari Grave Troll.... again!

  3. #103
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.
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  4. #104

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.
    I agree that Containment Priest would certainly force these decks to change how they are built. But wouldn't that be the point? I don't think it would kill the decks, but it would force them to interact on some level instead of beelining for their wincon to flood the board as fast as possible.
    Furthermore...How different from 'midrange, all-in aggro, and control' is the meta different from now? I honestly can only see something like Priest being a good thing for forcing these hyper-fast decks to have to deal with it, while not really being terribly threatening on its own.

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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Realistically, giving Modern the tools needed to build DnT feels like a win to me. I don't think even in its most optimal build it would be any good. The format is turned to eat creatures.
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  6. #106
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    @niv it‘s about a critical mass of absolute hate, covering pretty much every angle, fitting easily within the 15 sideboard slots of UW control [more than any other deck].

    The common thing you‘ll hear from modern players dicussing their format is that “my deck has a good [insert archetype] matchup...“ What they‘re really saying is that their SB is chock full of non-game producing hate like RiP, Stony Silence, etc... While a card like C-Priest sounds great b/c of how many matchups it can come in against, you end up dropping format attendance because people aren‘t going to show up to get blown out by even more you can‘t win SB cards.

    While decks whose contruction is as mindlessly idiotic as 28 slots land/Vial/CoCo + 32 dudes (plus or minus some 1 mana kill spell copies) are annoying to play against and really shouldn‘t be competitive; the reason they are even allowed to exist [competitively] is that they can run off to their sideboards to grab that 2 mana card that says “I can‘t lose.“ If you want an interactive format you need to decrease sideboard cards like these, not adding more on.

  7. #107

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @niv it‘s about a critical mass of absolute hate, covering pretty much every angle, fitting easily within the 15 sideboard slots of UW control [more than any other deck].

    The common thing you‘ll hear from modern players dicussing their format is that “my deck has a good [insert archetype] matchup...“ What they‘re really saying is that their SB is chock full of non-game producing hate like RiP, Stony Silence, etc... While a card like C-Priest sounds great b/c of how many matchups it can come in against, you end up dropping format attendance because people aren‘t going to show up to get blown out by even more you can‘t win SB cards.

    While decks whose contruction is as mindlessly idiotic as 28 slots land/Vial/CoCo + 32 dudes (plus or minus some 1 mana kill spell copies) are annoying to play against and really shouldn‘t be competitive; the reason they are even allowed to exist [competitively] is that they can run off to their sideboards to grab that 2 mana card that says “I can‘t lose.“ If you want an interactive format you need to decrease sideboard cards like these, not adding more on.
    Does Abrupt Decay not exist in Modern? How about Lightning Bolt? If Modern is broken by a 2/2 with an ability, I'm not sure if that speaks on the format or the playerbase....

    I just got done playing a game in Legacy, I was on Phoenix and my opp was playing Miracles. They had Containment Priest, Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Force of Will, etc. I won 2-0. You learn how to play vs control decks. You adapt. This is why I mostly don't play Modern. People would rather complain, threaten, and scream about bannings instead of...you know...becoming better Magic players.

  8. #108
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    @pittplayer there is no doubt that one can build decks in such a way as to play around cards it is targeted by; that does not however mean that C. Priest style cards aren‘t poorly-designed 1-card combos that say “I can‘t lose b/c I got to 2 mana.“

    There is nothing interesting about hate cards that are always on, absolute, eternal (nothing like recurring upkeep mana costs)....particularly when they are, by themselves, a wincon. When cards like this abound the game is lowered to doing nothing (just sit back on Snapcaster + kill spells until you eventually draw a Jayemdae Tome equivalent, i.e. JTMS) or playing a non-commital good stuff pile (ETB value scum). Boosting these strategies with SB cards that take away the need to play sequence-dependent patterns/enacting a plan [where the gamestate is warped to their needs] doesn‘t increase interest in a format. While it‘s fine to like simplistic 2-for-1 decks, they have the disturbing tendancy to push out every other way of playing the game (this reduces the game to the level of Hearthstone).

    Dies to removal, doesn‘t change the fact that C. Priest is a poorly-designed card. Just change the words around to say “if a creature would enter the battlefield face-up, exile it instead“ or “if a creature would enter the battlefield not from the graveyard, exile it instead“ - this should be sufficient to illustrate the sheer laziness of such card design. Such card design does not create interesting games, and it actively diminishes strategic diversity.

  9. #109

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Kind of proving my point there. The only thing Containment Priest does is force non interactive combo decks to interact. A 2 mana hate bear is kind of white does. And in a format like Modern that is mostly creature based, creature kill is plentiful and I'm not even sure Priest would see much play, seeing how in such a format non creature based combo hate is just better. I literally have no idea what you are going on about.

  10. #110

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    In addition to killing Phoenix and Dredge, Containment Priest kills Eldritch Evolution, Chord of Calling, Collected Company, Aether Vial, Living End, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, and all decks that hoped to use Flickerwisp or Eldrazi Displacer on their own stuff. The format would devolve to midrange, all-in aggro, and control. I would literally quit Modern.
    You're talking nonsense here. It's extremely difficult for a deck to get "killed off" by a sideboard card that's only playable in White decks and dies to practically every single piece of removal in the format. Especially when one considers the utter lack of Hallowed Moonlight seeing play in the format despite "killing" off every card you just listed. Yes, Hallowed Moonlight isn't as good as Containment Priest, but if Containment Priest was going to have as gigantic of an impact as you claim it would, one would expect that Hallowed Moonlight would see at least some play.

  11. #111
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittplayer View Post
    Kind of proving my point there. The only thing Containment Priest does is force non interactive combo decks to interact. A 2 mana hate bear is kind of white does. And in a format like Modern that is mostly creature based, creature kill is plentiful and I'm not even sure Priest would see much play, seeing how in such a format non creature based combo hate is just better. I literally have no idea what you are going on about.
    The point isn't so much about having to interact, so much as many hate cards being very binary - slap it down and the combo deck's SOL. Crypts vs. combo deck can be a back-and-forth, RiP vs. combo deck is a did you draw your SB card check. Similar deal as with getting locked out by D&T building a prison and tax agency piece by piece where you have the ability to dismantle it a bit or play around the restrictions and eventually have to concede because you can't really play Magic properly anymore vs. some chuckler slamming Chalice and your deck is blank. One is interesting, the other is not.
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  12. #112
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    You're talking nonsense here. It's extremely difficult for a deck to get "killed off" by a sideboard card that's only playable in White decks and dies to practically every single piece of removal in the format. Especially when one considers the utter lack of Hallowed Moonlight seeing play in the format despite "killing" off every card you just listed. Yes, Hallowed Moonlight isn't as good as Containment Priest, but if Containment Priest was going to have as gigantic of an impact as you claim it would, one would expect that Hallowed Moonlight would see at least some play.
    I was just curious and somewhat surprised:

    http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?t...ide=&strict=on

    http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?t...ide=&strict=on

    It's definitely seen some play, but it certainly isn't high profile.

  13. #113

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    The point isn't so much about having to interact, so much as many hate cards being very binary - slap it down and the combo deck's SOL. Crypts vs. combo deck can be a back-and-forth, RiP vs. combo deck is a did you draw your SB card check. Similar deal as with getting locked out by D&T building a prison and tax agency piece by piece where you have the ability to dismantle it a bit or play around the restrictions and eventually have to concede because you can't really play Magic properly anymore vs. some chuckler slamming Chalice and your deck is blank. One is interesting, the other is not.
    So basically you are complaining about fair decks being able to interact with combo decks. Got it. Making combo decks maybe slow down a turn and have to board in things like abrupt decay is format breaking to you. Right.

  14. #114
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pittplayer View Post
    Kind of proving my point there. The only thing Containment Priest does is force non interactive combo decks to interact. A 2 mana hate bear is kind of white does. And in a format like Modern that is mostly creature based, creature kill is plentiful and I'm not even sure Priest would see much play, seeing how in such a format non creature based combo hate is just better. I literally have no idea what you are going on about.
    It's important to understand that C. Priest would effectively give UW control the biggest sideboard in the format (as in the most virtual slots thanks to the bonus anti-Vial/CoCo/etc aspect)...in a format where the gameplay is best summarized as game 1 ships in the night, into game 2-3 "I drew my 2 mana I can't lose card#Strategy#Skillgame."

    So it doesn't really matter that a card can die to removal, it is designed to create a non-game. Cards like C. Priest are inherently uninteractive. Now if perfect hate cards had clauses like upkeep costs and other built-in obstacles to maintenance, or were otherwise imperfectly-templated (creating timings or loopholes/workarounds), then it would all be fine - but they don't, and the games they show up in are uninteractive, non-games.

    So think of all the decks that want C. Priest, and see how many don't have horrendous matchups vs UW control that would be left standing. SB cards that say "I can't lose" do not increase format diversity.

    Edit: you seem to think that combo decks are uninteractive, so let's address that. When a combo deck is picking a spot to 'go for it' to the time that they go off successfully and win, you have had a veritable wealth of opportunities to interact - you simply didn't submit a list that was built to interact on a necessary axis (and that's okay, it feels bad, but it's just fine). One must always take solace knowing that combo pilots aren't the degenerates reaching into their SB to try and scum wins off a 1-card combo.

  15. #115

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    It's important to understand that C. Priest would effectively give UW control the biggest sideboard in the format (as in the most virtual slots thanks to the bonus anti-Vial/CoCo/etc aspect)...in a format where the gameplay is best summarized as game 1 ships in the night, into game 2-3 "I drew my 2 mana I can't lose card#Strategy#Skillgame."

    So it doesn't really matter that a card can die to removal, it is designed to create a non-game. Cards like C. Priest are inherently uninteractive. Now if perfect hate cards had clauses like upkeep costs and other built-in obstacles to maintenance, or were otherwise imperfectly-templated (creating timings or loopholes/workarounds), then it would all be fine - but they don't, and the games they show up in are uninteractive, non-games.

    So think of all the decks that want C. Priest, and see how many don't have horrendous matchups vs UW control that would be left standing. SB cards that say "I can't lose" do not increase format diversity.

    Edit: you seem to think that combo decks are uninteractive, so let's address that. When a combo deck is picking a spot to 'go for it' to the time that they go off successfully and win, you have had a veritable wealth of opportunities to interact - you simply didn't submit a list that was built to interact on a necessary axis (and that's okay, it feels bad, but it's just fine). One must always take solace knowing that combo pilots aren't the degenerates reaching into their SB to try and scum wins off a 1-card combo.
    What is an example of hate card would you believe is more appropriate?

    Also, when you say "I can't lose" what you're really saying is "must be answered" so how is that different than any other threat? They don't create "non-games" they just force you to plan to have answers, just like everything else.

    One of the downsides of playing a single-minded deck is that it folds to hate cards. I understand the complaints you have but I honestly think that comes down to the fundamental mechanics of Magic itself rather than problematic hate cards. If everyone played fair decks the meta would be pretty boring if you ask me. But on the other hand when people are trying to play broken combos, there needs to be answers for those otherwise why play anything else?

  16. #116
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    What is an example of hate card would you believe is more appropriate?

    Also, when you say "I can't lose" what you're really saying is "must be answered" so how is that different than any other threat? They don't create "non-games" they just force you to plan to have answers, just like everything else.

    One of the downsides of playing a single-minded deck is that it folds to hate cards. I understand the complaints you have but I honestly think that comes down to the fundamental mechanics of Magic itself rather than problematic hate cards. If everyone played fair decks the meta would be pretty boring if you ask me. But on the other hand when people are trying to play broken combos, there needs to be answers for those otherwise why play anything else?
    I think combinations of effects are generally healthiest (things like mana denial into Tabernacle with the idea of making card type creature unplayable), but in terms of single card design concepts:
    -cards that oscillate between on and off, like DRS
    -cards that require sustain (Peacekeeper, Mystic Remora, Contamination, Solitary Confinement)
    -cards that expire (Drop of Honey, the fading mechanic)
    -cards that create choices (effects like 'if you want to do X, pay some cost')
    -cards that can be manipulated on an atypical axis (continuous artifacts)
    -cards that happen one time and aren't wincons (Tormnod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap)
    -cards that require alternative lines from opponents (like Meddling Mage, True Believer, Humility)
    -cards with symmetrical effects which require specific deckbuilding (Chains of Mephistopheles, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Blood Moon)
    -cards that let you bounce their strategy back at them (Phantasmal Illusion, Reanimate)
    -cards that pair perfect hate with narrow targets (Dread of Night, Energy Flux, CoP: Red)
    -maindeck cards that feed into strange proactive plan and possibly disruptive at the same time (like how Blood Sun can combo with City of Traitors). Playing with and against build concepts like these are the most interesting and skill testing games of magic. (within the context of a Reanimator mirror, Reanimate could fit in this category as well)

    There's no combo deck that doesn't open itself up to interaction at multiple points (particularly when you ban things that kinda just win the game by themselves like Necropotence), but if your whole gameplan is to play ETB-value duders, you've given up on trying to play a real game of magic with any kind of strategy. Your gonna jam dudes/2-for-1s, and you're only ever going to jam whatever else you happen to topdeck. These decks are hammers and they can only beat nails; if that's your whole plan [grinding out incremental value without trying to genuinely interact] I think you earned that loss to combo and the pilots should own it.

    Last I checked there's no Leyline of creatures can't enter the battlefield; not sure why the fair decks get the monopoly on 1-card "I can't lose" combos. Coming back to C. Priest and modern, it's important to remember that eventually one of these anti-combo cards will hate out the fair decks it's supposed to help because of Snap/Path + wrath UW deck - C. Priest is such a card, the ramifications are knowable in a format that is increasingly building around Faithless Looting and home to Vial/CoCo and Noble Hierarch decks.

  17. #117

    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I think combinations of effects are generally healthiest (things like mana denial into Tabernacle with the idea of making card type creature unplayable), but in terms of single card design concepts:
    -cards that oscillate between on and off, like DRS
    -cards that require sustain (Peacekeeper, Mystic Remora, Contamination, Solitary Confinement)
    -cards that expire (Drop of Honey, the fading mechanic)
    -cards that create choices (effects like 'if you want to do X, pay some cost')
    -cards that can be manipulated on an atypical axis (continuous artifacts)
    -cards that happen one time and aren't wincons (Tormnod's Crypt, Ravenous Trap)
    -cards that require alternative lines from opponents (like Meddling Mage, True Believer, Humility)
    -cards with symmetrical effects which require specific deckbuilding (Chains of Mephistopheles, Chalice of the Void, Smokestack, Blood Moon)
    -cards that let you bounce their strategy back at them (Phantasmal Illusion, Reanimate)
    -cards that pair perfect hate with narrow targets (Dread of Night, Energy Flux, CoP: Red)
    -maindeck cards that feed into strange proactive plan and possibly disruptive at the same time (like how Blood Sun can combo with City of Traitors). Playing with and against build concepts like these are the most interesting and skill testing games of magic. (within the context of a Reanimator mirror, Reanimate could fit in this category as well)

    There's no combo deck that doesn't open itself up to interaction at multiple points (particularly when you ban things that kinda just win the game by themselves like Necropotence), but if your whole gameplan is to play ETB-value duders, you've given up on trying to play a real game of magic with any kind of strategy. Your gonna jam dudes/2-for-1s, and you're only ever going to jam whatever else you happen to topdeck. These decks are hammers and they can only beat nails; if that's your whole plan [grinding out incremental value without trying to genuinely interact] I think you earned that loss to combo and the pilots should own it.

    Last I checked there's no Leyline of creatures can't enter the battlefield; not sure why the fair decks get the monopoly on 1-card "I can't lose" combos. Coming back to C. Priest and modern, it's important to remember that eventually one of these anti-combo cards will hate out the fair decks it's supposed to help because of Snap/Path + wrath UW deck - C. Priest is such a card, the ramifications are knowable in a format that is increasingly building around Faithless Looting and home to Vial/CoCo and Noble Hierarch decks.
    This whole conversation just became laughable. Humility, Blood Moon, Deathrite Shaman, Chalice of the Void are more fair/better designed then Containment Priest? Whatever you say bud. I'm done.

  18. #118
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Well, I don't know anything about Modern, really, so I'll just throw this general statement out there.

    No one is going to agree on how to "fix" Modern if they can't agree on what the problem is, let alone, answer if there even is a problem.
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I don't know anything about Modern, really, so I'll just throw this general statement out there.

    No one is going to agree on how to "fix" Modern if they can't agree on what the problem is, let alone, answer if there even is a problem.
    "The biggest issue is that I am right and everyone should agree with me. But some are too stupid to see things the my, sorry, the right way, and thus I have to waste my time online arguing about how I am right."
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    Re: Modern Horizons Spoilers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    "The biggest issue is that I am right and everyone should agree with me. But some are too stupid to see things the my, sorry, the right way, and thus I have to waste my time online arguing about how I am right."
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