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Thread: Naya Vengevine

  1. #21
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Agreed with 4 color being too greedy. Even if no one punishes you, hitting the right colors is extremely difficult for powering Nacatl early and leaving up the right combination for other things you'd want to do.

    I just can't see Domri being the correct choice for a deck. 3 mana is the most significant investment you're currently paying and he doesn't add much pressure by increasing your clock or even give you significant card advantage. In terms of planeswalkers, it's one of the least scary to play against. If you need something late game to prevent stalls, I'd always go 1 mana higher for the planeswalkers that are way more powerful, Chandra, torch of defiance or Koth of the hammer or maybe Garruk relentless. You have enough card filtering to just discard them if it's early game and you don't think you can support it that game.

    If you can't hit 4 mana reliably, I'd shift the creatures into giving you more reach. Grim Lavamancer is a great 1-cmc for late game even if it competes for graveyard resources, and Ghor-clan rampager can provide the extra burst you need or turn into a 4/4 creature in top deck mode. Tireless Tracker and Knight of the Reliquary are decent cards to increase your late game potential, even if you don't plan to abuse them.

    Most of these higher cmc suggestions could replace Domri but as you are an aggro deck you wouldn't want to use many of them.

  2. #22
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Agreed with 4 color being too greedy. Even if no one punishes you, hitting the right colors is extremely difficult for powering Nacatl early and leaving up the right combination for other things you'd want to do.

    I just can't see Domri being the correct choice for a deck. 3 mana is the most significant investment you're currently paying and he doesn't add much pressure by increasing your clock or even give you significant card advantage. In terms of planeswalkers, it's one of the least scary to play against. If you need something late game to prevent stalls, I'd always go 1 mana higher for the planeswalkers that are way more powerful, Chandra, torch of defiance or Koth of the hammer or maybe Garruk relentless. You have enough card filtering to just discard them if it's early game and you don't think you can support it that game.

    If you can't hit 4 mana reliably, I'd shift the creatures into giving you more reach. Grim Lavamancer is a great 1-cmc for late game even if it competes for graveyard resources, and Ghor-clan rampager can provide the extra burst you need or turn into a 4/4 creature in top deck mode. Tireless Tracker and Knight of the Reliquary are decent cards to increase your late game potential, even if you don't plan to abuse them.

    Most of these higher cmc suggestions could replace Domri but as you are an aggro deck you wouldn't want to use many of them.
    Thanks! Domri is really for the grindier matchups, like Rock and UWx control. I do like the Ghor Clan rampager suggestion, and i totally understand what you mean. In practice Domri has been better than you suggest, but your point stands. I really like the gc rampager idea, like, a lot.

    What are your thoughts on Naya Charm? Too cute?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Is Domri better at his job than Chandra, torch of defiance would be, though? 1 mana is a big difference on paper, but if it's for the grindy, long games then you'd be much better off going big in that slot. You have options in that respect because Faithless Looting allows you to play dead cards in certain matchups. It's like how blue cards in Legacy are that much better because even if Jace is bad in this matchup, he pitches to Force of Will just the same as a cantrip would. Domri seems all-around mediocre instead of throwing a haymaker in 50% of matchups and pitching it in the other 50%.

    Naya Charm seems too cute and also not necessary if you build the deck to be slightly more evasive. Ghor-Clan Rampager and things like Grim Lavamancer would mean you don't rely on an alpha strike to close out the game. Naya Charms first 2 modes are extremely lackluster so tapping their team would be the only real reason to play it. It has to be dead or sub-par at least 4/5 of the time, which isn't so bad because you can pitch it to Faithless, but there have to be more impactful cards to be playing in that slot.

  4. #24
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Good points. I think I'll work in Ghor-Clan and Grim Lavamancer, leaving Naya Charm behind. Domri I'm still testing, but I think it will eventually get cut as well. Chandra seems like a very good suggestion as well.

    Thanks!
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Small update: ghor clan = awesome, putting in 2 straight away. T1 nacatl/neonate/ape, t2 attack for 5-8 is very good. I have popped Neonate too soon in some situations, same with wraiths. This gives me another avenue to apply pressure while i work on a window for the engine to pay off. Domri still in board as a proxy until i can get a Chandra, or maybe garruk relentless, which seems ok as well.

    Ajani Vengeant and Gaddock Teeg are on my mind for sideboard as well. Lavaman is always an option for grindier matchups as well.

    I hit 4 mana pretty often, to answer an earlier question.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Ghor-Clan has been great, pretty sold on those 2 slots.

    Sideboard has changed. The BGx matchup is horrible; a single IoK can unravel an incredible hand. So I'm playing a set of Leylines for the Rock/Jund/Shadow matchups where I expect to see a lot of discard. No more messing around with lifegain options to race burn, leylines come in to shut off half their deck. Leylines can be discarded to Looting/Neonates, and I can cast the Leylines if it comes to that. My approach is changing quite a bit as well; I'm starting to look at this as a combo deck, not an agro deck. I need to sideboard accordingly. Boarding slots are Bolts and Ghor-Clans, maybe shaving a Hoots if I need a 7th sideboard card.

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  7. #27
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    I am hoping for a draw/discard outlet for this deck in Modern Horizons. Discard/draw is objectively worse for this style deck in particular, where a card like Cathartic Reunion is nuts in dredge due to the critical mass of cards you can discard.

    Like this would be nuts:

    Red-Flavored Opt
    R
    Instant
    Draw a card, then discard a card.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Light up the Stage seems potentially very good here. I have 2 flex spots, this might become an option. I'm not worried about the 3 mana 'hard' cast, I hit 3 lands in almost every game. Chipping in with a Neonate/Nacatl/Ape is very typical in the early turns as well.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    From the Modern Horizons thread, this is the new direction for this deck. I am very excited! I'm trading off a 3/3 ground pounder (Wild Nacatl) for Birds to settle mana and getting a 3/4 flyer that feeds synergies. Overall, this is a great tradeoff. Hoots and Izzet Charms are flex spots, giving me 6 spots to screw around with if something else gets printed to help out (a Careful Study variant would be an auto-include.) I still like the go-wide aspect of BTE/Whacker because it allows Birds to attack for damage. I will likely stay away from Become Immense/Temur Battle Rage for now, but it's always an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post

    Serendib + one-shot Bazaar activation? This card is weird.
    This will singlehandedly unite Vengevine and Hollow One. It's better than Cathartic Reunion because it's a creature to help trigger Vengevines. I'm on board with this janky stuff. It makes me want to get brewing for modern:

    4x Insolent Neonate
    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Bazaar Trademage
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Burning-Tree Emissary
    4x Reckless Bushwhacker
    3x Hooting Mandrills

    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Lightning Bolt
    3x Izzet Charm

    4x Scalding Tarn
    4x Wooded Foothills
    1x Misty Rainforest
    2x Steam Vents
    2x Stomping Ground
    1x Breeding Pool
    1x Forest
    1x Island
    1x Mountain
    1x Desolate Lighthouse
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  10. #30
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    From the Modern Horizons thread, this is the new direction for this deck. I am very excited! I'm trading off a 3/3 ground pounder (Wild Nacatl) for Birds to settle mana and getting a 3/4 flyer that feeds synergies. Overall, this is a great tradeoff. Hoots and Izzet Charms are flex spots, giving me 6 spots to screw around with if something else gets printed to help out (a Careful Study variant would be an auto-include.) I still like the go-wide aspect of BTE/Whacker because it allows Birds to attack for damage. I will likely stay away from Become Immense/Temur Battle Rage for now, but it's always an option.



    This will singlehandedly unite Vengevine and Hollow One. It's better than Cathartic Reunion because it's a creature to help trigger Vengevines. I'm on board with this janky stuff. It makes me want to get brewing for modern:

    4x Insolent Neonate
    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Bazaar Trademage
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Burning-Tree Emissary
    4x Reckless Bushwhacker
    3x Hooting Mandrills

    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Lightning Bolt
    3x Izzet Charm

    4x Scalding Tarn
    4x Wooded Foothills
    1x Misty Rainforest
    2x Steam Vents
    2x Stomping Ground
    1x Breeding Pool
    1x Forest
    1x Island
    1x Mountain
    1x Desolate Lighthouse
    Is Izzet Charm worth it? Also I was thinking maybe the new big Pyromancer (can't remember his name). He loots away vines and stuff. He's not as good as Trademage but it's essentially another 3 Mana payoff guy. He also poops out extra tokens to attack with bushwacker. And at worst he just draws 2 cards in a deck that's got a lot of built in card disadvantage.
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  11. #31
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Is Izzet Charm worth it? Also I was thinking maybe the new big Pyromancer (can't remember his name). He loots away vines and stuff. He's not as good as Trademage but it's essentially another 3 Mana payoff guy. He also poops out extra tokens to attack with bushwacker
    Good thoughts. I was worried I didn't have enough interaction for the deck. Izzet Charm was borderline splashable in the Naya version, just not quite there, because I needed another discard outlet. What makes it shine is the Spell Pierce mode. I could easily see cutting to 2 copies, this was just a rough list for testing. With Faithless Looting, Insolent Neonate, and Bazaar Trademage in the deck I don't see the need for Charm as much, but the redundancy seems good.

    For reference:



    I am skeptical. Discard before draw is so much worse than draw before discard, that's what makes Trademage so good. Cathartic Reunion is busted if you have the correct 2 cards to discard but disappointing enough times that I cut it completely. What makes Pyromancer possibly playable is the bodies for Bushwhacker, as you say, but at 3 mana it's just not the right spot on the curve.

    Side note: I'm looking at Stubborn Denial again, as well as keeping the Become Immense/Temur Battle Rage plan in my back pocket. The current plan is to go wide with hasty combos turns 3-4 but going tall with Become Immense should be really easy with Bazaar Trademage to feed it.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    I don't really have a suggestion on what to cut but Street Wraith seems like a must play still. Also, I like new Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    I don't really have a suggestion on what to cut but Street Wraith seems like a must play still. Also, I like new Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    There are some flex spots, probably -1 Hoots, -3 izzet charm, +4 street wraith. Hogaak is interesting, possibly a replacement for the last 2 Hoots. Testing will ensue!
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  14. #34
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Are the Naya or RUG versions of this deck going to resume development? I'm very interested in where this will go.
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  15. #35
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    I think I'll wait a little bit for the dust to settle, then purchase some Hogaaks. I think they are definitely going to be part of the mix. I think the RUG version will end up being the better version, mostly due to Bazaar Trademage. With Looting/Trademage/Neonate that's 12 engine cards to fuel Vengevine/Hollow Ones. Once I add in BoPs, Bolts, BTE's, Whackers, Street Wraiths, and lands it's basically built with a few flex spots to consider. Those slots will consist of some number of Hogaaks and Izzet Charms. The next step: finding out if it's still competitive. Turn 3 was the big turn for the Naya version, I am assuming this will be the same.

    t1 - Faithless Looting/Insolent Neonate/Birds of Paradise
    t2-3 Trademage/setup
    t3-4 BTE >>> Bushwhacker >>> attack for a bunch

    The Naya version was hitting for around 10 by turn 3 with lethal on-board. I think this will be more consistent at getting those t3 blitzes. Of the t1 plays, Birds is the best, followed by Looting, then Neonate.

    I can't emphasize this enough: Trademage drawing before you discard is very, very good. Cathartic Reunion created way too many bad situations where you have cards in hand that you want in your graveyard.
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I think I'll wait a little bit for the dust to settle, then purchase some Hogaaks.
    Hogaak is just over 5 bux a piece at the moment. If I were you, I would buy them now before people realize Hogaak is still playable even without Bridge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    <Dallieza> your mom uses the stack
    <System> Player Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Every time someone drops a Chalice against me I think of the Family Guy episode where the guy in jail stabs himself with the knife to see how it feels and then he says, "My God! Is this what I've been doing to people? I belong in here!"
    Referring to the art on Stasis:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Well, uh...the mime, you see, is....um...

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  17. #37
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirrislegend View Post
    Hogaak is just over 5 bux a piece at the moment. If I were you, I would buy them now before people realize Hogaak is still playable even without Bridge.
    Good call, I'll snag a set.

    EDIT: List for testing

    4x Insolent Neonate
    4x Birds of Paradise
    4x Bazaar Trademage
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Burning-Tree Emissary
    4x Reckless Bushwhacker
    2x Hogaak, Risen Necropolis
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Faithless Looting
    4x Lightning Bolt

    4x Scalding Tarn
    4x Wooded Foothills
    1x Misty Rainforest
    2x Steam Vents
    2x Stomping Ground
    1x Breeding Pool
    2x Forest
    1x Island
    1x Mountain
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  18. #38
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    What should be the name of that deck now? (Naya vengevine doesn't fit anymore).
    I propose "Bea(s)ts Under the carpet" (Hoogak / hollow one / vengevine in an RUG shell).
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  19. #39
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    Re: Naya Vengevine

    Beasts under the Carpet sounds cool. I was contemplating "Kinky Fourplay" (Bazaar/4-power creatures), but that would be in somewhat poor taste. "Bazaar and Reckless" sounds ok to me as well.

    I can change the heading for the subsequential posts but the original thread title has to be changed by a moderator. I could create a new thread, which I'm happy to do, but a mod would have to delete this one. I like the context of where it began (RG Hollow-Vine) but that could always be included in the primer.

    There is a 'hinge' point in the deck, one that will need to be addressed: whether to go wide with BTE/Bushwhacker or whether to go tall with Become Immense/Temur Battle Rage. I tend to think that Hogaak lends itself to going tall, especially with built in trample. Going wide is a little less feasible with Hogaak because two creatures need to be tapped to cast him, meaning there will be fewer creatures attacking with the Bushwhacker bonus. I'm also a little worried I don't have enough green creatures to convoke Hogaak (12 with Birds/Vines/BTE's.) In the Bridgevine deck all the creatures were black except for Vengevine and Hogaak, which were green to support casting Hogaak. In a go-wide strategy, it may be better to just stick to Hooting Mandrils. The efficiency of getting a 4/4 trample with haste for only G may actually be better than an 8/8 trample that needs to tap down valuable attackers just to be cast. I also don't like going tall in the current metagame where UW control is a tier deck. Losing to a Path to Exile would feel really bad. Getting in under Supreme Verdict shouldn't be too difficult, honestly, because there are ways to get Vengevines back or just refill with a Trademage/Looting.

    I think that for a little while people are still going to be packing graveyard hate, at least 4 slots in their 75. Surgical Extraction was a maindeck inclusion in a lot of decks before Hogaak, simply for Izzet Phoenix decks. I don't think that will change any time soon. If Faithless Looting were banned instead of Bridge I think I would comfortably say Surgical would disappear from maindecks...but this deck would likely be dead in the water, lol.
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