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Thread: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

  1. #1

    Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    I'm trying to figure out card interaction between Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

    Urborg reads "Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types."

    Vision Charm reads "Choose a land type and a basic land type. Each land of the first chosen type becomes the second chosen type until end of turn."


    What happens if I target swamps and turn them into islands?

  2. #2
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    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    It's a question of timing and layers.

    When two effects affect the same characteristic of a card, then you apply them in the order of appearence.
    Urborg turns all lands into swamps. When you use vision charm, all swamps become islands until end of turn where they become swamps again.

    Read the gatherer comments of Humility if you want to know more on that.

    Sorry i cannot state the exact rule in the ruleset.
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  3. #3

    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    It's a question of timing and layers.

    When two effects affect the same characteristic of a card, then you apply them in the order of appearence.
    Urborg turns all lands into swamps. When you use vision charm, all swamps become islands until end of turn where they become swamps again.

    Read the gatherer comments of Humility if you want to know more on that.

    Sorry i cannot state the exact rule in the ruleset.
    Maybe I should clarify my question, as I don't believe it has anything to do with timing.

    Urborg turns all lands into swamps in addition to their normal land type. That includes Urborg itself.

    If i turn all swamps into Islands, I believe those lands cease to have any of their regular properties and become basic islands. Is that right?

    If so, Urborg would turn into a normal Island and stop making anything else on the board a swamp. So, I'm wondering for the turn that the Vision Charm is played what happens to lands that are not normally swamps (Forest, Plains, Maze of Ith, Tropical Island, Volrath's Stronghold, Dust Bowl, Desert, ...etc)?

  4. #4
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    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuclearspatula View Post
    Maybe I should clarify my question, as I don't believe it has anything to do with timing.

    Urborg turns all lands into swamps in addition to their normal land type. That includes Urborg itself.

    If i turn all swamps into Islands, I believe those lands cease to have any of their regular properties and become basic islands. Is that right?

    If so, Urborg would turn into a normal Island and stop making anything else on the board a swamp. So, I'm wondering for the turn that the Vision Charm is played what happens to lands that are not normally swamps (Forest, Plains, Maze of Ith, Tropical Island, Volrath's Stronghold, Dust Bowl, Desert, ...etc)?
    I'm pretty sure everything would just be an Island.

    What I think you are asking is if Vision Charm makes Urborg into an Island, then how does it's effect make everything else a Swamp (and so an Island)? The answer is that this is just how the layer system works. You don't retroactively go back and recheck Urborg's effect once Vision Charm's effect goes off. It's a little strange, but it is very important to the rule integrity that things apply one layer after another, even if it does sometimes cause weird things to happen, like how Magus of the Moon still makes Non-basic lands into Mountains, even under Humility.

    If you want to drill down, I think this is a case of dependency (both effects are type-changing effects), so you apply Urborg then Vision Charm.

    613.7. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is sometimes done using a dependency system. If a dependency exists, it will override the timestamp system.

    613.7a An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.


    613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they're applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
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  5. #5

    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    alright, so I understand what you are saying.

    what I don't understand is how that is possible unless all the cards that change a land into a basic land work that way too.

    Both Jinx and Mystic Compass turn a single land into the basic land of your choice until end of turn. if they target Urborg, wouldn't that turn off its ability that makes everything a swamp?

    If its the case for those cards, or Phantasmal Terrain, why is Vision Charm different?


    Note, I'm the one playing with the land change cards. I want to make sure I understand how my own deck works in this situation.

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    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuclearspatula View Post
    alright, so I understand what you are saying.

    what I don't understand is how that is possible unless all the cards that change a land into a basic land work that way too.

    Both Jinx and Mystic Compass turn a single land into the basic land of your choice until end of turn. if they target Urborg, wouldn't that turn off its ability that makes everything a swamp?

    If its the case for those cards, or Phantasmal Terrain, why is Vision Charm different?


    Note, I'm the one playing with the land change cards. I want to make sure I understand how my own deck works in this situation.
    I am likely the wrong person to try to explain things, but it is because Vision Charm's effect is dependent on Urborg effect to effect it (and on what it effects). So, that means since we want to apply the type change effect of both Urborg and Vision Charm, we need to evaluate for dependance. Since Urborg's effect changes what Charm would do there is dependance, but not reciprical (so applying Charm first wouldn't change what Urborg does, since it just applies to all lands) but applying Urborg first does change what Vision Charm does (goes from effecting one land to all lands). So, we apply Urborg first.

    I mean, maybe I am not explaing it 100% clearly, but layers are confusing. What matters, in the case of Charm vs Phantasmal Terrain though is clear. Phantasmal Terrain is targeted, so there is no dependence. Urborg's effect has no relevance as to whether or not Terrain changes it's type. Vision Charm, on the other hand, very much cares about Urborg's ability to determine what the spell will do and that introduces the need to resolve the dependency.
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  7. #7

    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Let me see if I have this correct.

    Vision Charm effects Urborg because Urborg says that all lands count as swamps (including itself). But as soon as Urborg becomes an Island it would stop being a valid target because it would stop being a swamp thus making it an instantly an Urborg again and thus a valid target. thus I would create a paradox, and to stop the Paradox the rule is that While Urborg changes to an Island, its effect that says "all lands are swamps" stays in affect and therefor every land in play becomes a basic island until the end of the turn.

    did I get it?

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    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuclearspatula View Post
    Let me see if I have this correct.

    Vision Charm effects Urborg because Urborg says that all lands count as swamps (including itself). But as soon as Urborg becomes an Island it would stop being a valid target because it would stop being a swamp thus making it an instantly an Urborg again and thus a valid target. thus I would create a paradox, and to stop the Paradox the rule is that While Urborg changes to an Island, its effect that says "all lands are swamps" stays in affect and therefor every land in play becomes a basic island until the end of the turn.

    did I get it?
    Sort of, yeah. It's more that the way to "resolve" the paradox is to have Urborg's effect apply first, then Charm will remove that ability, which doesn't matter because it already happened. This is how the rules prevent these sorts of things from becoming loops. So, once something is applied in a layer, it does not matter what another layer does to it, it already applied.

    EDIT: I found this article which doesn't exactly cover this situation, but I like the way he explains out the dependence issue between Blood Moon and Urborg. So, in his way of explaining, since Vision Charm depends on Urborg, but Urborg is independent of Charm, we apply Urborg first and then Charm.

    Like I said, this gets complicated to explain. Likely a real judge could do better, even if I am pretty certain I am right on what happens, I am likely not conveying why very clearly.
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  9. #9

    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    H

    Thank you, I will see about contacting a judge to make sure this is correct.

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    Re: Vision Charm and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuclearspatula View Post
    H

    Thank you, I will see about contacting a judge to make sure this is correct.
    There is a Judge group on Facebook that is generally very good and fast at answering. I can't link to it at the moment, but it shouldn't be too hard to find, I don't think.
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