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Thread: Nourishing Lichless Combo

  1. #1
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    Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Nourishing Lich is an (in)famous deck on these forums. The combo you get nefarious lich into play which draws you cards when you gain life. So pitching Autochthon Wurm to nourishing shoal draws you 15 cards then you win by pitching these to sickening dreams (you remove the cards you just pitched per the clause on lich...tendrils could deck you due to the life gain). This deck is not Nourishing Lich, but it does rely on nourishing shoal and autochthon wurm. The namesake card of nefarious lich is not in this deck and that is where this deck gets its terrible name.

    The combo relies on having Allosaurus Rider and either Eldritch Evolution or the newly released card Neoform in your hand. The combo is simple, you get either Neoform or Eldritch Evolution into your hand, play Allosaurus Rider (or search for the Rider with Summoner's Pact) and then Evolve into a Griselbrand. Once you have Griselbrand in play you pay up to 14 life to get a nourishing shoal into your hand. Once you have nourishing shoal in hand, pitch autochthon wurm (or search for a autochthon wurm to pitch) and repeat the process until you've drawn your library. Then either play a Laboratory Maniac and draw till you win, or cast Lightning Storm.

    Rough math on this combo was: the chances of drawing a single copy in your opening of a card you have "8" copies of: 1-HYPGEOMDIST(1,7,8,60) = 57.82%. For the combo, assuming you have all the land + accel + green cards, you should be able to get a Grisslebrand into play turn 1 about 33.44% of the time (chances of Rider/Pact + Neoform/Evolve) . Then you have about a 73.58% chance (1-HYPGEOMDIST(1,1,14,53)) of getting a nourishing in two activations and thereby having a chance to go off. So that's a 25.60% chance of a turn 1 win (with no protection and assuming land + accel + green cards).

    Granted the deck, at the moment has no protection or draw to improve the percentage. This thread is to possibly improve on that - either through card choices or by slowing it down a turn. At the moment it's just a decently consistent turn 1 kill for Legacy. Additionally, we need to figure out the correct land count, the correct kill package, and anything else that we can possible remove to make room for protection. Why develop this combo? 1) The combo is a 2 card combo but is in effect cheaper than Oops all Spells (2-3 mana instead of 4, and you can run land), but it has no protection and is set to go off turn 1/2. 2) decently consistent - with a "bad math" turn 1 win percent of one out of every 4 games, 3) it is hilarious - it doesn't run Lich, but for those of us who enjoyed the old Nourishing Lich deck, pitching a wurm to shoal is the height of MTG.

    Rough Draft

    10 Lands

    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Autochthon Wurm
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    2 Griselbrand

    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Neoform
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Lotus Petal

    4 "Win Cards"

  2. #2

    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    You could consider Borborygmos Enraged as a win card.

  3. #3
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    One problem I see with borby is you need to basically assemble the combo early, plus find a way to get him into play early, then draw your whole deck. Because you can't draw a ton of cards to find the way to get him into play because then Evolution or Neoform may not be able to find him. Hence why in my modern list lightning storm is the kill condition (also modern doesn't have petal and therefore it's harder to cast laboratory maniac on your combo turn with only Spirit guides available). Also with lightning storm as a win condition you need to run more lands which is rough. Is there an argument for lab maniac and street wraith or something as the kill condition?
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Needs more Lich. Griselbrand is a lousy Lich.


    Also what do these cards even do... tags added


    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Autochthon Wurm
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    2 Griselbrand

    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Neoform
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Lotus Petal



    So you're using Wurm/Chancellor to cast Allosaurus for free (just to have a 7-drop), then Evolving it into Griselbrand to draw more, then exiling other Wurms/Chancellors to Shoal to gain life and draw your deck?

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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Needs more Lich. Griselbrand is a lousy Lich.


    Also what do these cards even do... tags added


    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Autochthon Wurm
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    2 Griselbrand

    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Neoform
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Lotus Petal



    So you're using Wurm/Chancellor to cast Allosaurus for free (just to have a 7-drop), then Evolving it into Griselbrand to draw more, then exiling other Wurms/Chancellors to Shoal to gain life and draw your deck?
    Yes. The upside is that it avoids the graveyard and with Borby it doesn't need to attack to win
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    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  6. #6
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Yes. The upside is that it avoids the graveyard and with Borby it doesn't need to attack to win
    Why would you need to attack with Borbory to win? You just need to discard 7 lands...
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    I think Megadeus was just trying to state that this is a turn 1/2 combo deck that doesn't use the attack phase or graveyard (, and my own observation, gets past Chalice @ 1).

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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I think Megadeus was just trying to state that this is a turn 1/2 combo deck that doesn't use the attack phase or graveyard (, and my own observation, gets past Chalice @ 1).
    Correct. I think this deck has more legs in modern for obvious reasons (no force of will). Also many of the current side boards that play stuff like leyline and crypt don't affect the deck at all as well as the prison decks attempting to use bridge as their lock piece. So it's a combo deck that Dodges grave hate, bridge, and chalice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  9. #9
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Correct. I think this deck has more legs in modern for obvious reasons (no force of will). Also many of the current side boards that play stuff like leyline and crypt don't affect the deck at all as well as the prison decks attempting to use bridge as their lock piece. So it's a combo deck that Dodges grave hate, bridge, and chalice.
    Agreed RE Modern, but I think the presence of ESG and Lotus Petal make this an interesting deck to tinker with a bit in Legacy as well. Obviously FOW is the big issue. The difficulty of improving this deck is first figuring out the minimum amount of green cards we can run to go off, let's say, turn 2 reliably. Once we figure that out we can probably start cutting to get some draw/protection.

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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Oh, oops. I misread what he said. I thought he was saying that Borbory was bad because it needed to attack. My apologies.
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Agreed RE Modern, but I think the presence of ESG and Lotus Petal make this an interesting deck to tinker with a bit in Legacy as well. Obviously FOW is the big issue. The difficulty of improving this deck is first figuring out the minimum amount of green cards we can run to go off, let's say, turn 2 reliably. Once we figure that out we can probably start cutting to get some draw/protection.
    One upside to green Chancellor that I've found in the modern version is that it can make Mana plus pitch to Rider whereas ESG doesn't get to do that. Also Chancellor at worst is 7 life on shoal to get another Griselbrand activation. Obviously ESG has the upside of being pacted for and such, but I actually think Chancellor might be Superior here with ESG as a 1 of to pact for.

    All that said and you've already got 4 of them so I'll just stop now
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  12. #12
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    I was working on a similar idea too. Here's a slower, maybe more consistent take? I didn't love it in goldfishing; I think you might be onto something with the Chancellor.

    2 Bayou
    1 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Allosaurus Rider
    1 Borborygmos Enraged
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Duress
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Neoform
    2 Griselbrand
    2 Gurmag Angler
    4 Land Grant
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Ponder
    1 Progenitus
    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Thoughtseize

    Maybe a faster list like yours is better?
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Autochthon Wurm
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Neoform
    2 Griselbrand
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Land Grant
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Pact of Negation
    4 Summoner's Pact
    3 Wild Cantor

    I did a very little bit of goldfishing and liked the Tangles but disliked how infrequently I got a hand with the required pieces.
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Maybe I'm missing something. What makes this more consistent than Nefarious Lich?

    BBBB is hard, but resolving Allosaurus Rider (exile 2 green cards), then resolving Neoform/Evolution into Griselbrand and not having Griselbrand removed with Griselbrand-hate (which is very common) seems like a lot of hoops to jump through too. This build also can't run blue cantrips.

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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmutant View Post
    I was working on a similar idea too. Here's a slower, maybe more consistent take? I didn't love it in goldfishing; I think you might be onto something with the Chancellor.

    2 Bayou
    1 Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Allosaurus Rider
    1 Borborygmos Enraged
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Duress
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Neoform
    2 Griselbrand
    2 Gurmag Angler
    4 Land Grant
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Ponder
    1 Progenitus
    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Thoughtseize

    Maybe a faster list like yours is better?
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    3 Tropical Island
    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Autochthon Wurm
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Neoform
    2 Griselbrand
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    4 Land Grant
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Nourishing Shoal
    4 Pact of Negation
    4 Summoner's Pact
    3 Wild Cantor

    I did a very little bit of goldfishing and liked the Tangles but disliked how infrequently I got a hand with the required pieces.
    If you also add vine dryad and find one or two 5 drops that can steal games it might be worth it to go that route. You don't always need to kill on the spot.
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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Vine Dryad could dig into Thornling, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Baneslayer Angel, Doom Whisperer, Dragonlord Ojutai, Icefall Regent, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, Thundermaw Hellkite...

    Skithiryx off Neoform ends the game in 2 attacks. If you have a Petal/Bayou to give it haste, it wins next turn. Sigarda is green and almost impossible to kill without Terminus / Deluge. Doom Whisperer is huge and fixes draws. Baneslayer gains life and beats through Baleful Strix. Thundermaw has haste and also kills annoying things like Baleful Strix, Clique,... Icefall Regent locks down single threats like Emrakul.

    Skyshroud Cutter is another option that doesn't cost you a card in hand.


    //Mana: 24
    4 Land Grant
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Forest
    1 Bayou

    //Creatures: 21
    4 Vine Dryad
    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    4 Autochthon Wurm
    2 Griselbrand
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
    1 Doom Whisperer

    //Tutors: 11
    3 Worldly Tutor
    4 Neoform
    4 Eldritch Evolution

    //Lifegain: 4
    4 Nourishing Shoal


    The Pacts seem too risky, especially if you want a plan B to just cheat out a fatty instead of combo out.
    Last edited by FTW; 04-17-2019 at 07:25 AM.

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    Re: Nourishing Lichless Combo

    Instead of 5 drops with Vine Druid and Skyshroud - you can also do 6 drops since using neo form on a 4CMC you can search up a Goblin Dark-Dwellers and then immediately recast Neoform.

    If you want to revamp the deck just to get out a 6 drop (or 8 drop) drop turn 1 - without the Nourishing Combo kill you can aim for:

    Nourishless & Lichless

    10 Lands

    4 Allosaurus Rider
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Vine Dryad
    4 Skyshroud Cutter
    4 Chancellor of the Tangle
    2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
    2 5 CMC Targets
    2 6 CMC Targets (Sire of Insanity)
    2 8 CMC Targets
    2 [Open]

    4 Neoform
    4 Eldritch Evolution
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Lotus Petal

    You can arrange your targets for best turn 1 drops against whichever decks. Per previous math getting one of your targets turn 1 seems to be simply 57.82%.

    Edit - If you want to slow down a turn, I think we can get rid of Chancellor. That will give us 6 free spots for protection.

    Edit 2 - played some rounds with this. Lack of protection is a huge problem but getting a target into play early is really fun. Miss having the nourishing combo in though so put it back in with the following edits:

    Back to Lichless

    +4 Wurm
    +4 Shoal
    -2 [Open]
    - 1 Skyshroud Cutter
    - 1 Skyshroud Cutter
    2 Grisslbrand as 8 CMC Targets
    1 Borborygmos Enraged
    -2 [ 5 CMC Targets]
    -1 SSG
    -1 Manamorphose

    With this the plan is essentially to either combo out turn 1 or to get out Sire of Insanity Turn 1.
    Last edited by Cire; Yesterday at 09:45 AM.

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