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Thread: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

  1. #21
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    i think this version is rather strong:


    // 60 Maindeck
    // 9 Artifact
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Chrome Mox

    // 4 Creature
    4 Griselbrand

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Omniscience

    // 12 Instant
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Intuition

    // 16 Land
    3 City of Traitors
    13 Island

    // 3 Planeswalker
    3 Narset, Parter of Veils

    // 12 Sorcery
    4 Show and Tell
    4 Timetwister
    4 Ponder


    could use some tweaking, but i really like this kind of approach. it's very streamlined.
    -rob

  2. #22

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    I think you want to go landless here and max out on tutors - Entomb AND Quiet Spec, then just run all the artifact mana and rituals - LED, Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Opal, Dark, Rite, Cabal, Manamorphose, and just keep recycling everything until you have enough mana for a lethal Tendrils or Warrens or Charbelcher.

    But I'm not a storm player, so I could be wrong here.

  3. #23
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Desesperate Ritual
    4 Seeting Song
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Gamble
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Empty the Warrens
    3 New Timetwister
    2 Taiga
    4 Land Grand

    SB:

    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Telemin Performance
    1 New Timetwister
    10 Cards

  4. #24
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo


  5. #25

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    This may be something worthwhile to read on the power of Echo of Eons as it compares to power with LED and cards like Windfall of old. I actually used to run this deck back in 2002 and, honestly, it was gross.

    Granted, LED with Echo is just a Timetwister, but there's something to be explored here. No, Tolarian Academy isn't legal, but LED is.

  6. #26
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Top 8'ed the recent 85-player MTGO Challenge.
    Bahra played it on his stream yesterday too. Deck seemed pretty wild when it worked, he went 4-1. I went and bought 4 copies of Echo, haha.
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  7. #27

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Top 8'ed the recent 85-player MTGO Challenge.
    I tried the build at the Legacy FNM in our LGS last weekend (without knowing about this thread on source). Fun to play, but the combo needs some time so finally kill and has a pretty high fizzle rate if you go all-in with lack of spare mana floating. But a quick Narset, Parter of Veils into echo of eons turn is more or less a win, even without killing the same turn.

    I was lacking 2 SB-cards (e.g. 1 defense gird) from the list, so I was adding 2 teferi, time traveler. The cards was really amazing (considering the small sample size I played). It's defense gird plus bounce for critical permanents (e.g. leylines) and many more in one single card. More vulnerable to attacking creatures though.

    I also want to change the mana base (only the lands) a little bit. I found myself wanting more than 5 mana-producing lands in some situations. Also re-drawing multiple fetchlands after going off (and re-shuffling them back in our library) is a pain.

  8. #28
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by perian View Post
    I tried the build at the Legacy FNM in our LGS last weekend (without knowing about this thread on source). Fun to play, but the combo needs some time so finally kill and has a pretty high fizzle rate if you go all-in with lack of spare mana floating. But a quick Narset, Parter of Veils into echo of eons turn is more or less a win, even without killing the same turn.

    I was lacking 2 SB-cards (e.g. 1 defense gird) from the list, so I was adding 2 teferi, time traveler. The cards was really amazing (considering the small sample size I played). It's defense gird plus bounce for critical permanents (e.g. leylines) and many more in one single card. More vulnerable to attacking creatures though.

    I also want to change the mana base (only the lands) a little bit. I found myself wanting more than 5 mana-producing lands in some situations. Also re-drawing multiple fetchlands after going off (and re-shuffling them back in our library) is a pain.
    I just started picking up the deck this week, and so far it's been fun for my first storm deck. I've tentatively named the deck Loch Ness (well, Lock N.E.S. for Narset Eons Storm).

    Anyway, introduction and trying to name the deck aside, I'm curious about Teferi because I've considered him when I start modding the deck after getting a handle on the stock list, but the UW casting cost seems like it'd be a strain considering how tight the mana base is, especially since as far as I can tell, white is only in the deck to fall back onto Monastery Mentor as a second win condition.

    Tweaking the manabase would be fine, but for me it's a different reason. The only game so far where my Underground Sea did not get hit with a Wasteland at my opponents first available moment was the game where I drew the godhand and won turn one. Granted I get that recycling nonbasics with Eons is a thing and that helps, but it'd be nice to either not fall back onto basic lands so soon or tool the deck to work with basics sooner.

    I haven't run into getting mana/fetch flooded yet (unless you count getting Chrome Mox flooded), but two possible solutions to that would be to either to make room for Careful Study, or to switch out the Mentors for Young Pyromancer and take the deck into a Grixis direction with Faithless Looting. Personally, I think neither is be necessary as both cards are techincally -1's. Brainstorm and recycling with Echo of Eons has worked out well enough for me so far in getting rid of dead cards, but I want to throw around ideas in case one of them turns out to work.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    I'm not really sure where exactly to post this, but I figure maybe it's here? Here's my take on a dumb Narset Echo deck

    The Antiquities War:

    Maindeck (60)
    3 Painter's Servant
    1 Trinket Mage
    4 Thirst For Knowledge
    4 Narset, Parter of Veils
    4 Karn, the Great Creator
    4 Echo of Eons
    1 Chalice of the Void
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Grindstone
    3 Defense Grid
    4 The Antiquities War
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    6 Island
    4 Seat of the Synod

    Sideboard
    1 Painter's Servant
    1 Grindstone
    2 Flusterstorm
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond

    SB is kind of thrown together. This deck can have some fun starts. Also with the new Mulligan rule you can Mulligan fairly aggressively to just find LED + Twister to reset.

    Updated list with Thirsts
    Last edited by Megadeus; 07-05-2019 at 09:34 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    I was going to post a thread in N&D for UBx Echo Storm, but I found this thread. Hopefully this is a good place for this; otherwise, I can make a new thread.

    I'm surprised that this hasn't been explored a bit more. I see TES performing well using Echo, but I would think that a Storm deck built more all-in on Echo would be more popular than what I'm seeing on mtgtop8 results.

    I do see some interesting lists in this thread, so that's cool.

    The deck is obviously UB at its core, like any other Storm deck. I dislike the TES component of Rite of Flame which is a non-bo with Echo. I'm not even sure that this deck needs the extra rituals tbh. Burning Wish is cool, but I'm not sure that this deck needs that either. I also don't understand the point in only a single Echo, but discussing TES isn't the point of this post.

    I do think the extra artifact mana sources make sense (Chrome Mox and Mox Opal), especially for enabling turn 1 Narset, and Wishclaw Talisman seems like the best tutor option. Infernal Tutor is still good as well, but probably unecessary. Entomb is intriguing since it enables Echo, but it doesn't tutor for Tendrils, so I'm not still not sure about it.

    Here's the core that I started with:

    8 fetch
    3-4 dual
    1-2 Island
    1 Swamp
    4 Narset, Parter of Veils
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Echo of Eons
    4 Wishclaw Talisman
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    The deck obviously needs additional disruption beyond just Narset/Echo. Discard is really bad with Echo. Cabal Therapy is great for discarding Echo, but once you spin the wheel, the opponent draws a fresh 7. There are on-color choices like Force of Will, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant and Defense Grid that seem pretty good, but beyond that, I think either green or white have the best to offer.

    Green offers Veil of Summer, which works really well with Echo, and Abrupt Decay or Assassin's Trophy seem reasonable as sideboard removal. Leovold, Emissary of Trest is also interesting, since most opponents board out creatures, and it's basically more copies of Narset to bust Echo in half. Carpet of Flowers is a strong sideboard card, too.

    White offers Teferi, Time Raveler, which is incredibly strong because it shuts down countermagic and bounces problematic permanents. Dispatch out of the sideboard can deal with problematic creatures and would be great against Delver. Monastery Mentor is a strong postboard creature to bring in postboard after the opponent's cut removal.

    Originally, I tried to include Thoughtcast, but I don't think this deck reliably gets 4 artifacts to stick to the board. Only 1 Mox Opal will be on the board at a time, Lotus Petal and LED get sac'd, and Wishclaw doesn't stick around either.

    Peer into the Abyss seems like an alright backup engine, probably in the sideboard to bring in to beat graveyard hate in control matchups.

    I'm also curious if Emry, Lurker of the Loch would be good in the sideboard. The deck could pretty easily transform into an aggro/control deck postboard, I think. Emry might not be strong enough without Urza's Bauble, though.

    Here's where I ended up for now:

    UBg Echo Storm

    Lands (13)
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    2 Snow-covered Island
    1 Snow-covered Swamp

    Creatures (0)

    Spells (47)
    4 Narset, Parter of Veils
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Echo of Eons
    4 Wishclaw Talisman
    4 Veil of Summer
    2 Defense Grid
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    Sideboard (15)
    ???

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Hanni; 09-28-2020 at 04:34 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    A few of us were brewing RUG Echo storm in 2 other threads, which also seeks to explosively win on turn 1-2 by abusing multiple maindeck copies of Echo of Eons.

    I think red is better than black for all-in Echo a few reasons:
    -Gamble is a faster tutor for LED+Echo than Wishclaw Talisman, which is very slow & mana hungry
    -Infernal Tutor makes you crack LED at the wrong time, so it isn't useful for assembling the engine
    -Burning Wish allows you to be more efficient with space by moving the wincon to the SB and running up to 7 effective copies of Echo. It also makes it easier to find answers to hate.
    -Empty the Warrens backup plan to win through hate
    -Pulverize and other great answers to popular artifact-based disruption
    -Discard (black's protection) does not line up well with Echo
    -The core principle of the deck is that by cutting Ad Nauseam, you can run multiple Echo of Eons maindeck and more fully abuse that card
    -Black is a normally a core storm color because of the draw engines (e.g. Ad Nauseam), but with Echo that's unnecessary. You can generate Storm 10-20 without any black mana until Tendrils, which makes Dark Ritual less useful (unless you go for Wish into Peer into the Abyss, which still needs red)


    Green is also important because:
    -Veil of Summer makes Echo more 1-sided; Autumn's Veil to a lesser extent
    -Reverent Silence cleanly solves Leyline of the Void without expending too many resources
    -Carpet of Flowers is the best ritual/mana source to fight blue tempo decks' mana denial, and makes it easier to ramp into Peer postboard

    White is also an option because:
    -Silence/Orim's Chant gives full shields to make Echo even more 1-sided. Teferi, Time Raveler would too, but 3cmc planeswalker is way too slow for what this deck is trying to do
    -white also has good answers to enchantments, like Wear // Tear and maybe even Patrician's Scorn
    -Monastery Mentor is a great SB man plan for Storm decks
    -white has premium creature removal for hatebears


    Final Fortune's RUG Storm is all-in on Echo with 8x Veils as protection, and is very efficient at that but (imho) weaker to lines that beat Veil.

    My build is probably 0.5 turns slower using Song of Creation as an alternate engine and a mix of shields (Veil, Grid, Hope) to increase the opponent's decision trees and make it harder for them to deploy the right hate to beat the shields.


    Both builds are built around the same core that is probably the most consistent way to abuse Echo of Eons in a storm deck.

    Echo of Eons
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Burning Wish
    Gamble
    Lotus Petal
    Rite of Flame
    Veil of Summer

    Echo versions of Belcher also run these cards.

    I think Narset, Parter of Veils is too slow for the storm builds. As busted as it is for with LED+Echo, winning the game is even better, and a 3cmc walker that dies to Pyroblast/Bolt actually slows down the deck. Narset works better in the slower Echo decks like Emry Stompy.


    This is the latest list I had before I stopped testing it 2 months ago.


    RUG Song of Storms


    //Lands: 15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Wooded Foothills
    1 Misty Rainforest
    2 Volcanic Island
    2 Taiga
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Snow-Covered Island

    //Enchantments: 4
    4 Song of Creation

    //Artifacts: 19
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Defense Grid

    //Spells: 22
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Gamble
    4 Rite of Flame
    3 Veil of Summer
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Echo of Eons

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Empty the Warrens
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Pulverize
    1 Cave-In
    1 Consign // Oblivion
    1 Echoing Truth
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Carpet of Flowers


    It gets consistent T1-T2 goldfishes. It also gets reliable T1-T3 wins against interactive opponents with hate.

    I haven't tested it in a few months and never got to play it in a big event, but it was putting up ~50% against RUG Delver and UR Delver in the post-Lurrus meta the last time I tested it. It should do even better against slower strategies like Snowko.

    The maindeck is pretty tight with maybe +/- 1 tweaks to some numbers, as this one is balance to optimize both Echo of Eons and Song of Creation as potential storm engines. This mix of spells means you basically always win if you can resolve Song, and there's enough explosiveness to win off Echo or even have natural Storm lines.

    The SB and boarding strategy was still being debated in the other threads. The Wishboard should be self-explanatory. Hope of Ghirapur was in for a while as another shield to protect Echo and Song, but it has some drawbacks (like getting Bolted or blocked by Insectile Aberration) so I cut it in this version. Carpet of Flowers seems like the best solution to fair blue tempo, which tries to beat this deck through mana denial (it will not win just on counters). Surgical is a concession to BR Reanimator, a terrible matchup because we can't interact with T1 Iona. Multiple Empty is one of my SB tricks to board into natural storm and slide under their hate, but it could arguably be Hope or some protection slot. There's also debate about whether to have the 4th Echo in the SB or main (if it's main, the SB would have something like Diminishing Returns or Day's Undoing to still have a hail mary line).

    Pyroblast is the best card against Song+Veil, so the popularity of Pyroblast to deal with Oko.format makes the Song version a little weaker right now, though I can still beat it with Grid/Hope or playing an Echo line.

    You could also cut Song and go all-in on Echo with something like:
    -4 Song
    -3 Grid
    +3 Autumn's Veil
    +4 Faithless Looting
    (and then you really need Peer as a backup engine, while the Song version already has a backup and doesn't need to ramp to 9)

    I'm naturally forced into RUG by Song's mana cost, but without it white might be better than green.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-28-2020 at 03:24 PM.

  12. #32
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    I don't see why Narset can't work. You have the mana to be able to cast it on turn 1, and combo'ing that into LED/Echo is just so strong. As a 3-mana Impulse, it's a bit expensive, but it can dig for both LED and Echo to go off. I realize it's not a backup engine the way Song of Creation is, but it seems way too strong with Echo to not be running. In a Bolt matchup, you can wait to minus it if you're worried about it dying before you can get LED/Echo off (assuming no turn 1 Delver that flips turn 2). It's definitely soft to Pyroblast, but so is Song.

    I think Dark Ritual is much better than Rite of Flame with Echo. Burning Wish is great because it costs 2cc and gives 7 virtual copies of Echo, but running 3 Echo main does reduce the amount of natural LED/Echo hands, although I suppose that is less relevant when you don't have Narset. Wishclaw gives the deck a virtual 8 copies of Echo though, so that point seems moot.

    The reason I feel that Wishclaw is so strong is because it not only grabs Echo or Tendrils, but it can also grab LED, and you can also just put it onto the table before going off with LED/Echo, and crack it later for Tendrils once you have lethal Storm (or LED or Echo to spin the wheel a second time), where you'd otherwise be shuffling other tutors back with Echo. As an artifact, it also helps enable Mox Opal. Not out of the realm to have an opening hand with Mox Opal and Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal, playing Wishclaw, then cracking the Wishclaw with Opal to grab LED or Echo to go off. Or, already having LED/Echo, and it sitting on the table to be used after you spin the wheel, which would be even better.

    Wishclaw can also come down prior to the combo turn, so it only costs 1 mana to tutor when you're ready for it. Since it can literally tutor for anything, you can even grab Veil or Narset before going off.

    Sideboard Leovold also seems really strong.

    I can respect what you're doing with the red version, but I think the black version is just as valid.

    In either case, I agree that green seems like the strongest splash for disruption/removal. White is still very intriguing, but green is likely better for a Storm deck.

    EDIT: I respect Gamble as a faster tutor, but I'm not sure I like it here. It's obviously great if you're just grabbing Echo and don't care about the rest of your hand, but it's not great at grabbing LED or Tendrils. Ponder doesn't tutor for Echo, but it digs you into whatever you need, be it disruption, mana, etc.

    I'm also okay going with mini Tendrils over ETW, since Echo can shuffle Tendrils back in.

    Grapeshot does seem really good though, since it can double over as removal and the kill spell.

    Sideboard aside, the main differences I see between what I posted and what you have is that you have Song instead of Narset, Gamble instead of Ponder, Burning Wish instead of Wishclaw, and Rite of Flame instead of Dark Ritual. I'm sure your list performs well, but I don't see why the list that I posted wouldn't work too.
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  13. #33
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I don't see why Narset can't work. You have the mana to be able to cast it on turn 1, and combo'ing that into LED/Echo is just so strong. As a 3-mana Impulse, it's a bit expensive, but it can dig for both LED and Echo to go off. I realize it's not a backup engine the way Song of Creation is, but it seems way too strong with Echo to not be running. In a Bolt matchup, you can wait to minus it if you're worried about it dying before you can get LED/Echo off (assuming no turn 1 Delver that flips turn 2).
    It could work, for example in the slots I have Song. I started testing with Narset in other builds and just found it too slow once I started angling for faster wins. Your build is inherently slower, so you have time to get more value out of Narset.

    Keep in mind the longer the game goes, the more hate you expose yourself too. If you try to win on T1-T2 you can go straight under cards like Collector Ouphe or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben instead of being forced to expend resources killing it if you play out slower engines. Speed is one form of protection.

    I think it was MartinMedMitten/JosefK who brewed a variation of the deck using Riddlesmith and Emry, Lurker of the Loch along with Narset, Parter of Veils. That sounds more up your alley. It's definitely fun to play, but I think he got unsatisfying results on MTGO and ended up abandoning the deck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Burning Wish is great because it costs 2cc and gives 7 virtual copies of Echo, but running 3 Echo main does reduce the amount of natural LED/Echo hands, although I suppose that is less relevant when you don't have Narset.
    The reason I feel that Wishclaw is so strong is because it not only grabs Echo or Tendrils, but it can also grab LED,
    That's what Gamble is for. For 1 red mana, Gamble finds Echo 100% of the time and LED 67-85% of the time (you're happy to discard almost anything else in your hand if you sequence correctly). Gamble sets up LED/Echo more consistently than any black tutor or Narset can, which is why I think red is better than black here.

    As for Burning Wish vs Wishclaw Talisman, it's just a question of mana cost (2 vs 3) and space efficiency. Wishclaw is slower and risks backfiring and just losing you the game. Wishclaw without Wish also forces you to run Tendrils main (bad draw) and have no access to answers in game 1. Wishboard gives a lot more flexibility for beating hate in all 3 games. TES runs Burning Wish on top of Wishclaw and therefore doesn't have to worry.


    Edit: You don't have to Gamble for Tendrils. Burning Wish for it, then you don't even need maindeck Tendrils and save a dead draw.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    and you can also just put it onto the table before going off with LED/Echo, and crack it later for Tendrils once you have lethal Storm (or LED or Echo to spin the wheel a second time), where you'd otherwise be shuffling other tutors back with Echo.
    Passing the turn with Narset/Wishclaw are the types of lines we were trying to avoid, to play under hate and win faster.

    We brewed Echo storm as a way to innovate into a different space than TES and ANT, to go faster, because Wishclaw has otherwise slowed down storm a bit. Wishclaw's slowness (and risk of getting blown out by artifact kill/Stifle/opponent tutoring) is the biggest drawback to TES right now. Otherwise TES is very strong and probably the best Wishclaw deck already. Bryant Cook has put countless hours into optimizing it.

    Wishclaw is a very strong card but less conducive to all-in fast storm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I think Dark Ritual is much better than Rite of Flame with Echo.
    We're unlikely to get the bonus from multiple Rites, yes (though Rite gets much much better for Song lines in my deck). Otherwise it's just a matter of color. Black mana is less important without Ad Nauseam/IGG as the main engines and red mana is better for Gamble/Burning Wish/Empty/PiF. A red or even blue Dark Ritual would be ideal. Dark Ritual effectively produces colorless mana for a Gamble + Burning Wish engine and doesn't help cast Echo or really anything until Tendrils, while at least Rite is on color even if it produces 1 less mana. The overall lower cost of engines (Gamble, Echo vs Wishclaw, Ad Nauseam) also reduces the need to produce large amounts of mana over specific colored mana.

    Dark Ritual is more relevant with Wishclaw Talisman though, and does help ramp into Peer, so if you build in that direction it gets better.


    RESPONSE TO EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Sideboard aside, the main differences I see between what I posted and what you have is that I have Narset instead of Song, Gamble instead of Ponder, Burning Wish instead of Wishclaw, and Rite of Flame instead of Dark Ritual. I'm sure your list performs well, but I don't see why the list that I posted wouldn't work too.
    Yeah, sorry, I wasn't saying your version isn't viable at all. It should work and be fun to play.

    The big things are without Red it just looks slower and lacks the power of a Wishboard to beat disruption. Basically, Ponder and Narset are both less effective at assembling LED/Echo than Gamble, and Wishclaw is a slower tutor that forces you to run maindeck Tendrils and can't access SB answers in Game 1. After a lot of testing, the red cards just seem better at setting up a faster LED/Echo storm deck. But you could even consider some RUB build mixing both.

    Ponder, Narset and Wishclaw lend themselves to more of a "control" game. That could also be viable. Emry and Riddlesmith might work well in that deck too.

  14. #34
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Makes sense. I'm sacrificing some explosiveness/speed with Ponder and Wishclaw vs Gamble and Burning Wish, but I'll be a bit more consistent. Turn 1 Narset into LED/Echo is still incredibly strong though, so I think that outweighs some of the explosiveness.

    Burning Wish might help fight through hate better in game 1, and not dilute the maindeck with answers in postboard games, but I'm okay with that trade-off I think.

    I have enough blue postboard to run Force of Will, which would improve combo matchups, and Leovold seems really good once opponent's cut removal for making Mind Twist's happen.

    I understand your point about getting under the hate, but I think my list should still be plenty fast enough to do that too.
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Yeah, if you're OK with that tradeoff then there's definitely space to innovate. I recommend trying out Riddlesmith and Emry, which might both be better than Ponder.

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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Well, I've explored both of those cards in my Echo Stompy deck, but I'm not sure that I want to run those maindeck in a Storm list. Emry needs Bauble to be really good, I think. Riddlesmith is great since it can discard Echo, but either creature exposes me to creature removal.

    A transformational sideboard into an Echo Stompy deck is certainly on the table, though.

    EDIT: You're also right about the weaknesses of Wishclaw, but being able to take the first turn to set up with Ponder can help you dig into what you need to go off protected. Not that the Gamble list cannot lead off with Veil of Summer or Defense Grid first, but Ponder is a bit better at setting up because you don't have the random discard with it. Both Veil and Defense Grid do a good job at stopping Stifle and stuff.
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    MartinMedMitten/JosefK has the most experience playing Riddlesmith storm. I think he's proven it can be a powerful draw engine in Storm with all those mana rocks, and it's a discard outlet for Echo when you don't have LED. It's not just an Echo Stompy card. I would recommend trying it out, since you have a better shell to abuse it. The only drawback is dying to removal.

    I would not play Cabal Therapy or Thoughtcast. If you go white, Dispatch seems worse than just running good removal and not being constrained by Metalcraft.

    I've tried FoW, but it's a bit awkward with LED+Echo. Force doesn't protect Echo from resolving after you discard your hand to produce UUU. Trading 1-for-1 (or 2-for-1) with their answers is also bad when you're giving them a fresh 7 cards after. "Shields" like Veil, Silence, Grid and Hope are much better because your 1 card shuts down both their current hand and what they draw in the next hand. You don't have to worry about finding more FoWs each time you draw them new cards.

    I had good results with FoW in my other RUG Storm build, but that was 100% Song of Creation without maindeck Echo, so it could actually rely on Force protection.

    EDIT:
    You're also right about the weaknesses of Wishclaw, but being able to take the first turn to set up with Ponder can help you dig into what you need to go off protected. Not that the Gamble list cannot lead off with Veil of Summer or Defense Grid first, but Ponder is a bit better at setting up because you don't have the random discard with it. Both Veil and Defense Grid do a good job at stopping Stifle and stuff.
    Yeah, I agree those are strong lines. It's already proven in TES.

    With the Dark Rit/Wishclaw/Opal/Veil/Grid/Brainstorm/Ponder core I would just worry about being a worse version of TES or ANT. You run very similar setup and protection, yet they choose to run other engines instead of 4x Echo, and they've had thousands of hours of more testing behind their design, so there might be a rationale to them keeping Ad Nauseam in the deck and not leaning so hard into Echo.

    I've just been trying to innovate into a different and lesser-explored space, with speed and RUG engines (especially Song). The symmetry of Echo is a big risk, maybe what the other Storm decks are trying to avoid. That symmetry is mitigated the earlier in the game you can cast it. The earlier you cast it, the fewer cards you draw them (7-card hand into 7-card hand vs 4 card hand into 7-card hand) and the fewer mana they have open to use the new cards.

    Narset is another way to break the symmetry and could be enough, if you can assemble the 3-card combo and keep Narset alive. There might be other ways to deviate from TES and ANT to get more value, for example running maindeck Peer into the Abyss as an alternate engine if you can manage the mana.

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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    MartinMedMitten/JosefK has the most experience playing Riddlesmith storm. I think he's proven it can be a powerful draw engine in Storm with all those mana rocks, and it's a discard outlet for Echo when you don't have LED. It's not just an Echo Stompy card. I would recommend trying it out, since you have a better shell to abuse it. The only drawback is dying to removal.

    I would not play Cabal Therapy or Thoughtcast. If you go white, Dispatch seems worse than just running good removal and not being constrained by Metalcraft.

    I've tried FoW, but it's a bit awkward with LED+Echo. Force doesn't protect Echo from resolving after you discard your hand to produce UUU. Trading 1-for-1 (or 2-for-1) with their answers is also bad when you're giving them a fresh 7 cards after. "Shields" like Veil, Silence, Grid and Hope are much better because your 1 card shuts down both their current hand and what they draw in the next hand. You don't have to worry about finding more FoWs each time you draw them new cards.

    I had good results with FoW in my other RUG Storm build, but that was 100% Song of Creation without maindeck Echo, so it could actually rely on Force protection.
    I'm not saying Riddlesmith isn't strong, I'm just hesitant to expose myself to creature removal (at least preboard) in a Storm deck.

    Good point about Force of Will. It still seems good at stopping opposing combo decks from going off, dealing with hate, and helping to resolve Narset, but the fact that it won't help Echo resolve is definitely relevant.

    I agree on Therapy, and Dispatch is likely not as good in here as it is in my Stompy deck, as this deck is much worse at having/keeping 3+ artifacts on the board. I'm also pretty much sold on green over white right now.
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah, I agree those are strong lines. It's already proven in TES.

    With the Dark Rit/Wishclaw/Opal/Veil/Grid/Brainstorm/Ponder core I would just worry about being a worse version of TES or ANT. You run very similar setup and protection, yet they choose to run other engines instead of 4x Echo, and they've had thousands of hours of more testing behind their design, so there might be a rationale to them keeping Ad Nauseam in the deck and not leaning so hard into Echo.

    I've just been trying to innovate into a different and lesser-explored space, with speed and RUG engines (especially Song). The symmetry of Echo is a big risk, maybe what the other Storm decks are trying to avoid. That symmetry is mitigated the earlier in the game you can cast it. The earlier you cast it, the fewer cards you draw them (7-card hand into 7-card hand vs 4 card hand into 7-card hand) and the fewer mana they have open to use the new cards.

    Narset is another way to break the symmetry and could be enough, if you can assemble the 3-card combo and keep Narset alive. There might be other ways to deviate from TES/ANT to get more value, for example running maindeck Peer into the Abyss as an alternate engine if you can manage the mana.
    Well, Echo has its weaknesses too, such as graveyard hate. Running more 0 mana artifacts also exposes me worse to Collector Ouphe, Chalice on 0, etc.

    The symmetry is certainly a factor. Only drawing 7 also gives the deck a greater chance to fizzle.

    The benefit to Echo is the fact that it only costs 3 mana, and combos perfectly with LED. It speeds up the consistency of the fundamental turn by a lot. It can also be ran as a 4-of, which is something you don't want to do with Ad Nauseam, and Past in Flames requires more setup (so it's also not something you want to run 4-of).

    I agree that it is necessary to break the symmetry, as well as tune the deck to be fast enough, resilient enough, and consistent enough to be worth running over existing options. I feel like I have accomplished that with the list I posted, but I certainly don't have the hours logged nor the pedigree to assert that.

    Maindeck Peer into the Abyss could be important if more decks were running strong graveyard hate maindeck, but I'm fine dealing with the occasional Scavenging Ooze or Cling to Dust right now. If more people start maindecking Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace, or if some new Deathrite Shaman sort of card gets printed, I'd definitely be looking into a backup engine maindeck.
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Well, Echo has its weaknesses too, such as graveyard hate. Running more 0 mana artifacts also exposes me worse to Collector Ouphe, Chalice on 0, etc.
    I would recommend planning well for all of that in your SB slots, because those interactions will all come up a lot.

    Surgical Extraction and Cling to Dust can be stopped by Defense Grid or Hope of Ghirapur but not Veil of Summer. You can also play around them by sequencing. If you crack LED for UUU and immediately cast Echo, they never have priority when Echo is in the graveyard. However they can extract other cards to try to weaken your draw 7. Tormod's Crypt effects work the same way. You can protect Echo, but you may have reduced odds in the new 7 cards.

    You could also consider Silent Gravestone, which is sneaky tech: it stops targetted grave hate at your yard (Surgical, Cling, Faerie), it's an artifact for metalcraft and cheap spell for storm, and it also acts as hate vs decks like BR Reanimator by shutting off their Reanimate and Animate Dead (and Dread Return in Oops!/Dredge). It has synergy with the artifact engine and means you may not need to run grave hate vs other combo.

    Leyline and RiP are tougher to beat, turning off Echo completely. You need reliable enchantment kill in G2. Grafdigger's Cage also turns off Echo, so you need an answer for that. A Disenchant effect handles both. Final tries to play around it by just ramping into 6 mana and using the primary mode of Echo.

    Ouphe is easier to beat by winning before they can GSZ X=2, because it turns off mana and Wishclaw. I try to beat Ouphe by playing under it. Otherwise I have Wish into removal, especially Cave-In if I need to answer multiple hatebears at once. Spot removal or EOT Chain of Vapor will do for a single hatebear. However I see TES struggle vs multiple hatebears when they run 1-for-1 answers like Chain.

    I beat Chalice with Wish into Pulverize or Consign // Oblivion. You'll probably lose G1 to Chalice decks so you need a strong SB plan, maybe Abrupt Decays.

    Return to Nature is better at handling a mix of effects: Chalice/spheres, Leyline/RiP, and Cage. But it won't hit hatebears and it's counterable. So you have to make a tradeoff somewhere or diversify your answers. Decay misses Leyline.

    Karn, the Great Creator turns off LED and demands an answer. It dodges Decay and disenchants, so you probably need bounce or to win before it resolves, otherwise you lose almost immediately. Those decks will try to curve out T1 Chalice/3sphere/Moon first, so you need to answer those too to be able to interact with Karn. Nightmare matchup. I try to Wish into Consign to remove Karn. If I don't have the tempo to do it before they can Lattice lock me, I use the hail-mary of getting Pulverize. If they try Lattice I can Pulverize to reset the board, so we play chicken and I still have Pulverize to remove resistors.

    Enemy Narset also shuts down your draw engine, but may not be that popular outside of other Echo decks.

    Another SB option you can consider is Oko, Thief of Crowns. He Elks hatebears and resistors, or can turn your mana rocks into 3/3s to kill planeswalkers. He also acts as a secondary win con vs fair decks, instead of having to beat storm hate. I think Oko is an underrated SB plan in artifact-based Storm. I've already used it effectively in slower Xerox versions of Song of Creation and Bant Zirda. A Snowko Breach deck also did well right before the ban. For 1 card he gives you a lot of ways to either beat hate or just win around it, and most of their SB cards won't interact with him.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Only drawing 7 also gives the deck a greater chance to fizzle.
    That's a big reason why I run both Song and Burning Wish. I built to reduce the fizzle rate.

    A blind Echo won't always generate the right cards to win. Fizzling is a big risk. Multiple D7s in one turn are much more likely to storm into a kill, and it's much easier to chain multiple Echos using the explosive Gamble+Burning Wish than with Ponder+Narset+Wishclaw. Floating red mana from Rite also makes those gas cards live, while floating black mana from Dark Rit doesn't help Ponder or Narset in the new hand (you really want a blue ritual instead). There might be some alternate way to keep storming off with the UB shell, and if so, you definitely want to exploit it.

    Burning Wish into Empty or just boarding in Empty also makes the D7 much more likely to result in a winning board state (e.g. 10-16 goblins) even if you lack the gas to keep going into a lethal Tendrils. Song is just another layer on top of that, letting me Echo into a 1-card combo that basically wins the game that turn if I can resolve it, giving me more outs to win off a fresh 7 if I floated some mana through the Echo.

    Basically I have 4 Song + 4 Burning Wish + 0-2 Empty + any 2 of LED/Echo/Gamble as live draws to keep going that turn with the new 7 cards. That means most random 7s have gas and fizzling is low.

    You don't need Song, but you probably want some other gas so you aren't stuck with too many "pass the turn" draw 7s. Passing and giving opponent a fresh hand is very dangerous. Burning Wish could help reduce those "pass the turn" hands, even if you stick with UB as the main colors. Peer is another option, some way to keep going and draw enough cards to win. Riddlesmith would also act as a backup engine, giving you more gas and storm count from the new hand. All the backup engines have some drawback, so you may have to decide which ones you want to accept.

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