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Thread: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

  1. #1
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Winter is Coming

    4 Echo of Eons
    4 Liliana's Caress
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Careful Study
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Infernal Tutor
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Chrome Mox
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Swamp
    2 Island


    This deck is inspired chiefly by the ridiculous Megrim-Jar decks of combo winter. It seeks to win on turn 1. What do you think? What improvements can you see?
    Note, rtfc: me. There is no discarding happening with Echo.
    Last edited by Finn; 05-29-2019 at 02:18 PM.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  2. #2

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Winter is Coming

    4 Echo of Eons
    4 Liliana's Caress
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Careful Study
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Swamp
    2 Island


    This deck is inspired chiefly by the ridiculous Megrim-Jar decks of combo winter. It seeks to win on turn 1. What do you think? What improvements can you already see?
    Quiet Speculation

  3. #3
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by frustanani View Post
    Jesus fucking Christ...
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  4. #4

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Jesus fucking Christ...
    Your 3 cards to take with quiet speculation are
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Deep Analysis

  5. #5
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Well, getting more than one echo does nothing because the first shuffles the rest back. But still. Quiet Speculation seems damn good. Actually, it may as well be Entomb.

    Also, I wonder if canal therapy is better than tvoughtseize so you can discard echo yourself.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  6. #6

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    I think you need more card draw. Maybe some Whispering Madness.

    Also, particularly with Quiet Speculation, consider adding red for Faithless Looting and Past in Flames.

  7. #7

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Well, getting more than one echo does nothing because the first shuffles the rest back. But still. Quiet Speculation seems damn good. Actually, it may as well be Entomb.
    If they counter your first Echo
    then you cast an other one

  8. #8
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Pretty sure you need a different win con other than Caress as Caress literally does nothing. You shuffle your hands back, not discard them.

  9. #9
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Well, getting more than one echo does nothing because the first shuffles the rest back. But still. Quiet Speculation seems damn good. Actually, it may as well be Entomb.

    Also, I wonder if cabal therapy is better than tvoughtseize so you can discard echo yourself.
    Therapy is definitely better, especially if you can somehow flash it back after getting it with Quiet Speculation.

    I think the first Timetwister is likely the most important, so the re-shuffle isn't too bad of a drawback, not nearly as limiting as WotC thinks. I do think Careful Study, Entomb, Quiet Speculation, Intuition, Cabal Therapy, Brainstorm, and Echo of Aeons is likely a good place to start.

    What's the win condition? Megrim/Liliana's Caress doesn't do it, you don't actually discard. Memory Jar this is not. I suppose Tendrils of Agony does the job just fine but I also think there is some promise with Brain Freeze, maybe even Past in Flames, because you can do a short stack and mill yourself.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  10. #10
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    Pretty sure you need a different win con other than Caress as Caress literally does nothing. You shuffle your hands back, not discard them.
    Right. I'm not sure this is a deck then. Have to consider that one.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  11. #11
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Honestly i'd just start with a stock Ad Naus shell and cut all the non synergistic stuff and then go from there to see where the deficiencies lie. I'm sure this won't be close to the final product but it's a place to jump off from.

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Duress
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    1 Rain of Filth
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Infernal Tutor
    2 Past in Flames
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Ad Nauseam
    1 Dark Petition
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal

    Lands 15

    So cut the following:
    -1 Rain of Filth
    -4 Infernal Tutor
    -2 PIF
    -1 Ad

    Probably cut the Preordains as you will have a bunch more card draw.
    -4 Preordain

    +4 Echo the Eons
    +2 Void Snare (chain of vapour / Echoing Truth) so you have an out to a narset, Thalia or chalice, maybe it's not needed and the Discard is enough.

    You can probably fit in at least one mox diamond and mox Opal, possibly more, and trim a land or two.
    Chrome Mox is probably really really good in here as it is way way better with draw 7's than with a normal Ad naus shell.

    +4 Entomb
    +3 Chrome Mox
    +1 Mox Diamond
    +1 Mox Opal

    -3 Lands

    That leaves you with this:

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Duress
    4 Ponder
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Cabal Ritual
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Dark Petition
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Echo the Eons
    2 Void Snare
    3 Entomb
    3 Chrome Mox
    1 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Opal

    12 Lands

    I'm sure this is no where near optimal but it's something to start with.

    Chant/silence might be necessary as it is better than having to duress every time you draw 7. Defence Grid and Hope of Guy are also options here.

    It's probably very hard to get threshold on Cabal Ritual.

    It's possible you could run a full boat of Mox Opals with a bit more support so you have 8 "petals" essentially.

  12. #12
    Hymn-Slinger
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by frustanani View Post
    Your 3 cards to take with quiet speculation are
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Echo of Eons
    1 Deep Analysis
    Then you, plus Teferi, Time Raveler with a Niv-Mizzet, Parun in play.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  13. #13
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    why is everyone so crazy about using this with infernal tutor decks. you can't cast this post infernal tutor unless if you have no cards in hand when casting it, or an additional LED in play to crack again.

    the correct decks will run cards like burning wish, gamble, and intuition, and/or entomb is also pretty sick.

    please start sleeving up your ruby storm decks. :D

    gamble + LED is a totally fine opening hand now.

    i'll write up some lists in the ruby storm thread.

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 11 Artifact
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Ruby Medallion
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    // 3 Creature
    3 Simian Spirit Guide

    // 12 Instant
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Seething Song
    4 Brainstorm

    // 13 Land
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Mountain

    // 21 Sorcery
    3 Rite of Flame
    4 Burning Wish
    2 Past in Flames
    2 Bonus Round
    4 Ponder
    3 Timetwister
    3 Gamble


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 6 Instant
    SB: 3 Flusterstorm
    SB: 2 Echoing Truth
    SB: 1 Abrade

    // 7 Sorcery
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Grapeshot
    SB: 1 Past in Flames
    SB: 1 Fiery Confluence
    SB: 1 Rite of Flame
    SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
    SB: 1 Timetwister
    +2 X

    i would be a bit worried about any deck that can find a list with FoW though. it reminds me of the UB trix deck in old extended. this will be interesting.
    -rob

  14. #14

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    ...

    i would be a bit worried about any deck that can find a list with FoW though. it reminds me of the UB trix deck in old extended. ...
    Foil is a discard outlet. I imagine there's some Pitch Blue / MUC monstrosity that sits behind a counter wall and uses Echo of Eons and Day's Undoing to reload.

  15. #15
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    i think something like this is likely the best Echo deck:

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 8 Artifact
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal

    // 2 Creature
    2 Griselbrand

    // 4 Enchantment
    4 Omniscience

    // 12 Instant
    3 Intuition
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Impulse
    4 Force of Will

    // 15 Land
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Volcanic Island
    5 Island

    // 19 Sorcery
    4 Show and Tell
    3 Timetwister
    3 Burning Wish
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    1 Gamble


    // 3 Sideboard
    // 3 Sorcery
    SB: 1 Exhume
    SB: 1 Timetwister
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony

    it will need to be optimized, but i'm pretty sure show and tell is the way to go.
    -rob

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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Right. I'm not sure this is a deck then. Have to consider that one.
    Underworld Dreams

  17. #17
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    Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    I’m trying starting from the Tin Fins/ Bizarro Stormy side of things:


    4 Echo of Eons
    4 Entomb
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 LED
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Unmask
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Shallow Grave
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Griselbrand
    1 Magus of the Mind
    1 Tendrils of Agony


    4 Polluted Delta
    3 U Sea
    3 Flooded Strands
    1 Scrubland
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    SB:
    Silent Gravestone
    Serenity
    Push/Plow
    Tundra
    Bob
    Mentor

    Having the Tin Fins line or LED Eons seems like it amplifies your likelihood of starting asap. Magus of the Mind seemed like a great finisher in limited goldfishing. The deck can kind of studder off the draw 7s, but combined with Griselbrand it seemed more consistent.



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  18. #18
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    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Wait a second... wouldn’t this be amazing in High Tide?


    We might be overthinking this fellas. Just go
    May your suffering equal your weakness
    --Ihsan's Shade

  19. #19

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass View Post
    Wait a second... wouldn’t this be amazing in High Tide?


    We might be overthinking this fellas. Just go
    I think myself and some number of high tide players don't see this as playable. If you're going to intuition for it, it might be ok to flash back, but not having the untap clause just makes it almost-unplayable compared to time spiral. Like, actually quite unplayable.

    By the way, has anyone thought about trying it in a molten psyche/cerebral vortex sort of build? or underworld dreams?
    Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
    EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer

  20. #20

    Re: Winter is Coming - Echo combo

    Narset or Leovold and this

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