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Thread: 8Force

  1. #1
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    8Force

    8Force
    AKA MythStill
    AKA c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker!

    This deck plays 8 Force of Will to utterly dream crush greedy opponents. To make up for the obvious card disadvantage, the deck has Standstill and Accumulated Knowledge for card draw.



    //Spells: 26
    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Negation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    2 Counterspell
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Supreme Verdict
    1 Terminus

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //Enchantments: 7
    3 Myth Realized
    4 Standstill

    //Lands: 23
    3 Celestial Colonnade
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Marsh Flats
    3 Tundra
    3 Island
    3 Plains

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Disenchant
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Supreme Verdict
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Monastery Mentor


    The goal is to stop opponent from resolving dangerous big spells, then eventually win with manlands or Myth Realized.

    You can play through Standstill no problem. However the opponent popping it will give you a high chance of drawing countermagic.

    Spoiler:
    Force of Negation - 1UU
    Instant
    Alternate cost during opponent's turn: exile a blue card from hand
    Counter target noncreature spell. Exile it instead of putting it into the graveyard.
    Last edited by FTW; 05-29-2019 at 08:47 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: 8Force

    Cut one FoN for a sick Gunstar Heroes reference

  3. #3
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    Re: 8Force

    -The reason Tundra competes in legacy is 3x SCM.
    -23 lands is 1-2x too many. (Mentor ~ 22 land, Myth ~ 21 land).
    -Myth Realized requires 3-4x slots, whereas Mentor requires 2x.

    To find room for SCM, you need 1 more cut. Probably -1 Cspell if you're dead-set on 8x FoW effect.
    ----
    -Narset is the incorrect walker, we play new Teferi long before considering Narset.
    -You need +1 wrath, and -1 CJ. Given that you're playing 3 wrath, they kinda need to be the same card.
    -Celestial Colonnade is not great.
    ----

    The mana base is flawed; this would be more optimal in a not-Wasteland, no-REB build:
    4x Strand
    4x Vista
    2x Tundra (1x generally a better idea post-Vista, but you need Tundra to vindicate Wastelands)
    4x Island
    2x Plains
    3x Factory
    1x Karakas
    2x other lands

    For a not-Wasteland, REB build these are your Fetches (9x vs 8x):
    2x Strand
    3x Tarn
    4x Vista
    Mountain and REBx3 in SB. Absolutely no Volc main, and Tundra must be 2x. A slight variation: -1 Tarn, +1 Mesa.
    ----
    There are numbers that work in UW Standstill [3x SCM, 3x Factory], and there are also limited slots. The 4x AKs (replacing Ponder/Portent) are highly antagonistic to leveraging Terminus, so you're just gonna die to DnT b/c you're never going to be alive to cast Verdict (need 6x land drops). Using Verdict will have upstream consequences on manabase (must have more basic white, increasing mulls/losses by variance). The 4x Force of Negation cost you some Azcantas and interactive spells which previously killed creatures.

    AK + Standstill is somewhat of an anti-combo; when either gives you a full hand, you don't really want to cast the other card. You deck also has a pretty pronounced problem with being able to kill an opponent before decking (without Mentor).

  4. #4
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    Re: 8Force

    I'll squeeze in 3 SCM somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The 4x AKs (replacing Ponder/Portent) are highly antagonistic to leveraging Terminus, so you're just gonna die to DnT b/c you're never going to be alive to cast Verdict (need 6x land drops).
    -You need +1 wrath, and -1 CJ. Given that you're playing 3 wrath, they kinda need to be the same card.
    That's why Supreme Verdicts. I wanted the added CA of AK to compensate for 8 Forces, but Terminus is worse with AK. Tapping out for Verdict seems less dangerous with more Forces to answer the opponent's play, as long as Verdict handles creatures. 1-of Terminus because Verdict can be slow.

    Verdict pushes the manabase more towards white, but 3 Colonnades plus the 3rd plains should make that feasible.

    Is D&T the main reason for Terminus over Verdict (Port / Waste / Thalia making 4 CMC uncastable)? If so, I guess I'm forced into Terminus and then Ponders over AKs. Ponder is great card selection and sets up Terminus but does not make up for losing cards to Forces. Or I could just accept D&T will be miserable and metagame against other decks.

    -Narset is the incorrect walker, we play new Teferi long before considering Narset.
    Narset is there as another card engine (doubling as hate), compensating for losing cards to more Forces. Teferi can fill that role. Easy replacement.


    You deck also has a pretty pronounced problem with being able to kill an opponent before decking (without Mentor).
    That's what the Colonnades are for, to compensate for fewer nonland threats. They're very slow but provide a lategame clock before decking should be a concern. Granted I haven't played them in Landstill since 2011, but they used to be good at winning the matches that go past turn 12 - the ones where we risk decking or running out of time. Legacy is faster now but shouldn't they still be good at winning those long games?

    Colonnade's expensive activation cost is also why this is a 0-Wasteland build (can't afford to lose lands) and has extra lands. Colonnade is also a concession to the fact that on average I'll be pitching more nonland cards than usual, so win conditions in the manabase create less tension over which cards can be pitched.

    2 Mentor in the SB BTW.

    Are the Vistas and fewer Tundras just because of Wasteland? I'm less worried about Tundra dying to Wasteland when there are also Colonnades and Factories to hit. B2B is a headache with my manabase.

  5. #5

    Re: 8Force

    you probably want to add in multiple copies

  6. #6

    Re: 8Force

    also, why not Teferi? it bounces pesky permanents under a Standstill

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    Re: 8Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    also, why not Teferi? it bounces pesky permanents under a Standstill
    The play is: pick up a Standstill, play a threat, and redeploy Standstill without any chance of opponent interaction. The more useful aspect is the highly uninteractive manland attacks (PW-killing). Enchantment Stronghold doesn't help a ton in this deck.

    @FTW yep, it's Aether Vial allowing DnT to sink all mana and land drops into making Verdict cost ~6. Verdict is a better card in a lot of ways, but you can't really afford to have auto-losses to DnT since Standstill already has unfavorable matchups vs Hymn and CB.

    Colonnade is a little too crippling in an opening hand with its CITPT clause, so I'd drop that number down to 1 or fewer. Having multiples in that opening hand is likely game-losing by itself.

    There are always those games that are unwinnable, but in general this deck (and other UW decks) attributes most losses to manascrew. The best thing you can do in UW is not have Tundra in your opening hand, that card is a death sentence in a deck with manlands. Also with FoN, you're trying to get to hardcast mana so you need to avoid Wasteland as much as possible early on.

  8. #8
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    Re: 8Force

    I was messing around with this a while back and I tried an Enlightened Tutor package with Crucible of Worlds and Detention Sphere as silver bullets. It goes even further into card disadvantage but I loved the 'surgical' approach. Sideboard had Pithing Needle, Ethersworn Canonist, Rest in Peace, and Humility. In testing I found ETutor was pretty decent held up on t1 to set up a t2 Standstill. I played 3 Factories/2 Wastelands and it felt about right. I didn't have Three-feri at the time and I agree with earlier posts that he is incredible for this deck. I don't dislike Narset but little Teferi seems to be a natural fit.

    I did have trouble with D&T, but you can't warp a deck based around one specific matchup, especially if it isn't popular in your metagame. Having 3-4 sideboard cards should cover the matchup. Torpor Orb is actually really, really good against D&T, giving you plenty of time to make land drops and deal with their disruption. Just keep in mind it was an ETutor target, so I don't know how feasible using it would be (and I didn't play Snapcasters, just Factories/Myth/Jace for win conditions.)
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    Re: 8Force

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @FTW yep, it's Aether Vial allowing DnT to sink all mana and land drops into making Verdict cost ~6. Verdict is a better card in a lot of ways, but you can't really afford to have auto-losses to DnT since Standstill already has unfavorable matchups vs Hymn and CB.
    Hmm... This build has double the chance of countering turn 1 Aether Vial. According to the Hypergeometric Calculator, we start with a Force about 2/3 of the time. With significantly better odds at stopping Vial, is that enough to give Verdict game against D&T? If they sacrificed a land and then spend 2 mana a turn to Port me instead of casting threats, I don't really care. Maybe they won't even do that if they expect Terminus instead of Verdict?

    The extra forces might improve game against CB too. (Hymn gets even worse)


    Colonnade is a little too crippling in an opening hand with its CITPT clause, so I'd drop that number down to 1 or fewer. Having multiples in that opening hand is likely game-losing by itself.
    Come to think of it my old Landstill builds with Colonnades had 25-27 lands. Colonnade was not taking up the slot of an untapped land. Here it is. I'll drop it to 1, or cut a spell for the 2nd.


    There are always those games that are unwinnable, but in general this deck (and other UW decks) attributes most losses to manascrew. The best thing you can do in UW is not have Tundra in your opening hand, that card is a death sentence in a deck with manlands. Also with FoN, you're trying to get to hardcast mana so you need to avoid Wasteland as much as possible early on.
    Switching to 4 Vistas.

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    Re: 8Force

    Updated build.

    -Added 3x Snapcaster Mage
    -Swapped Supreme Verdict + AK for Ponder + Terminus, though I'm not sure that's overall correct
    -Swapped Narsets for Teferi
    -Cut extra Colonnades
    -Prismatic Vista into basics
    -Moved 3rd wrath from SB to main; moved a Council's Judgment to the SB


    //Spells: 26
    4 Force of Will
    4 Force of Negation
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Counterspell
    1 Council's Judgment
    3 Terminus

    //Creatures: 3
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //Enchantments: 7
    3 Myth Realized
    4 Standstill

    //Lands: 21
    1 Celestial Colonnade
    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Island
    2 Plains
    2 Tundra
    1 Karakas

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Monastery Mentor
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Disenchant
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Humility
    1 Engineered Explosives


    I'll have to try it out.

    I still think what's optimal for this build may be different than what's optimal for UW Landstill, because it's being optimized under different conditions. 8 Forces vs 4 Forces changes how the deck interacts. You should have a much easier time stopping early noncreature bombs (Aether Vial, Counterbalance, combo) even when tapped out. On the other hand, the deck should run out of cards more easily and be more wanting for card draw and threats.

  11. #11
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    Re: 8Force

    Just play Bant so you can Renegade Rallier back standstills or other lands you care about
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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    Re: 8Force

    You could try the Verdict w/ 8x FoW effects vs DnT [go all-in on countering Vials], but it also means you kinda have to keep all 8x in post-board. This likely screws up sideboard mapping as you have around 7 cards you'd want to bring in (CPx2, Disenchant x2, CJ, Humility, EE). Still have to acknowledge that Mother of Runes on board can also allow them to focus on mana denial.

    Traditionally your cuts are automatically 3-4x Standstill, but you're running this gambit that says they're never getting Vial; so you kind of need Standstill to back this CA loss up [the implied goal being to keep the Standstill plan alive]. Given their use of Port/Wasteland, you can cut a manland. Minus 2x Cspell is an easy cut. Myth is one of your better threats (immune to WL/Port), but maybe you can cut one. Minus 1x PW also works. The last two cuts probably have to be -1 Standstill, -1 FoN (or -2 FoN).

    ^staying on the Standstill plan is a highly atypical way of combating Vial/Cavern decks. It's untested theory, but it looks high variance (particularly vs a followup Stoneforge).

    Abandoning the Standstill plan vs Vial/Cavern makes it hard to fill the void, as you're saying you want to have replacements for the 4x FoN, 3-4x Standstill, and 2x Cspell you'd be taking out. This turns you into a generically worse UW pile than Blade that has to answer every card, and can't really trade in combat or generate advantage with Jitte. Regardless of the plan, I think you have to look intently at those Needles in the board wasting space (you're already overkilling the Vials if Standstill is staying in). The alternative [dubious UW pile] approach seems particularly vulnerable to Jailer, and Needles aren't solving this.

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