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Thread: Legacy Innovations and Brews

  1. #1
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    Legacy Innovations and Brews

    I wanted to start a thread here as it was mentioned on Reddit how to improve reasons why people should still use this forum instead of just relying on discord.

    One of the best parts of legacy is the ability to do some brewing. A lot of decklists get posted and most get overlooked. (Especially those coming from the Hareruya website.)

    I'll leave the first post where I can post some links and references.
    -rob

  2. #2
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    // jpa93 (7th place) a legacy deck by jpa93 (dec) version

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 8 Creature
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Mentor

    // 18 Instant
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Liliana's Triumph
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    // 20 Land
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Plains
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    3 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea

    // 6 Planeswalker
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    // 8 Sorcery
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Ponder
    3 Thoughtseize


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 1 Artifact
    SB: 1 Null Rod

    // 6 Instant
    SB: 1 Disenchant
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

    // 1 Planeswalker
    SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    // 7 Sorcery
    SB: 2 Council's Judgment
    SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
    SB: 2 Lingering Souls


    I wanted to start this with a brew which sees some play, but I think is more or less off the radar. Hoping to get some other's feedback on it, and start a conversation. Every few days or at least once a week I'll update the thread with a new deck, however anyone can post on here as long as they feel like the deck is innovative, or a brew, and had some kind of tournament showing, no matter how large the tournament.

    pros:
    threats are diverse
    delver for early game, mentor for early/endgame
    6 planeswalkers can outvalue and steal games
    daze + force + discard for anti combo
    reasonable amount of removal, but not too narrow.

    cons:
    light on threats
    manabase is a bit messy.
    cantrips + discard + delver is weak to chalice. (although teferi answers it maindeck)
    -rob

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Does that even count? I mean it's a Xerox deck and they changed a couple threats. This is why legacy isn't as interesting as it used to be
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    i don't want this thread to be a whining fest.

    if you want to complain you can always go over to the banned thread. the point of the thread is to get a little sense of community on here.

    thanks!
    -rob

  5. #5

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i don't want this thread to be a whining fest.

    if you want to complain you can always go over to the banned thread. the point of the thread is to get a little sense of community on here.

    thanks!
    I think megadeus has a point though, you could discuss this list reasonably in existing discords i would think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    feel free to post a list, i just grabbed one that wasn't a stock 75. i'm not going to fight over a list like this, i personally don't care for it, but i felt like the combination of delver + mentor was interesting enough.
    -rob

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    I'll update again later when I have time, but I'll add that narset mono blue deck with boomerang. Don't have time to find the list/link, but will get later.

    If anyone has it on hand, can they share?
    -rob

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Eh, the issue is that Mentor gets worse with each additional copy you run past ~2, and worse again for each other creature [not called Snapcaster] you topdeck. This anti-synergy is why Esper Mentor was always either legacy's best tier 3 deck or worst tier 2 deck. Minimal [and incidentally money-saving] changes will change this deck to miracles; a deck that can maximize Mentor.

    Daze picking up Tundra when you're trying to cast a 3cmc payoff, which generally needs 4th mana to ensure monk token value, is inherently suspect. You're also trying to play expensive PWs while picking up lands. So again we see the self-defeating anti-combo theme native to Mentor-themed decks.

    So many brews in legacy don't do anything novel, and what we're left with is a deck that is playing good stuff in a way that is worse than Counterbalance (miracles) or Hymn (Grixis). If you're playing Esper Delver, you probably need to begin brewing from this point:

    18 or 19 land, 3-4x are Wasteland
    4x BS
    4x Ponder
    4x FoW
    4x Daze
    4x Thoughtseize
    4x StP
    4x Delver of Secrets
    2x Gurmag
    2x Last Hope

    You have 10 slots left to figure out what you want to do; the most interesting would be Death's Shadow. There are some incredibly interesting life shenanigans cards offered by BW you could certainly use at the 2 mana mark (+/- LDV). Examples include Orzhov Charm, Bitterblossom, Arguel's Blood Fast, Final Payment. At the three mana mark you gain access to interesting effects like Anguished Unmaking and Convalescent Care. A deck using tools like these would qualify as sufficiently different.

    Conversely, you could build a larger deck (no Delver, no Mentor) and have fun with Hidden Stockpile + Aminatou, the Fateshifter + Thopter/Sword.

  9. #9

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    I think grixis phoenix is a good example, it was posted on this site by whitefaces in 2018 but didn't show up on mtgtop8.com until 2019 (the first result being whitefaces too). The list being on this site let lots of people input before it got big enough for discord.

    Pow22 got 21st at GP Birmingham losing his top 8 win and in on camera with delver miracles. I think the overall point is all of the innovation seems to come from England and the rest of the world needs to focus up .
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    // 8 Creature
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Mentor
    No. Just no. Delver is for tempo. Mentor is for control.

    Do you have anything more innovative than merging two staple Xerox shells? I'm surprised no one has posted RUG Delver with a singleton basic and 1 Light Up the Stage? Or Death & Taxes with Snow-Covered Plains?

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    It's fine, I give up. Let the site rot, the only thing consistent about this site is the negativity.
    -rob

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30655&iddeck=260462

    This is probably the most interesting list I could find on TCDecks. Still just a Xerox shell at the end of the day though. Ponder and Brainstorm are cancerous to this format
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    It's fine, I give up. Let the site rot, the only thing consistent about this site is the negativity.
    I think you've gotten good feedback so far. It's hard to convey the difference between being direct and being negative with the written word. Your list doesn't work for a couple of reasons, and it's not doing anything novel ~ it's just doing the same thing (xerox), in a worse way. These are fair assessments, and I've given you the parameters [number of free slots] with which you can actually brew with Esper Delver.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    I don't use discord so I have no clue why people choose it over the source so I can't speak to that. But the format is pretty stale for the most part. I mean miracles is still borderline the best deck in the format without probably it's best non brainstorm card and everything else is either Xerox strategy or token nonblue deck that preys on incredibly slanted blue field.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    my interest isn't to talk about brainstorm and ponder on here and if they should or should not be banned. my input on that has no effect on the updating of the ban/restricted list.

    it's also not to bash the decks that are being posted. maybe it's best to try your hardest to find optimism in the lists, and see what comes of that.

    any pile of crap can go 5-0 on modo with enough persistence and luck. we can analyze anything and break it down until we get to the point of saying, why aren't we just playing XYZ instead.

    there's a reason there are understood tiers for decks. there are optimal ways to have a strategy, but there are some great brewers in the format that prove that you can be good enough to win with something that isn't optimal.

    since the format is "stale", why not try to appreciate what people are trying to do with these conditions, instead of complaining about brainstorm and ponder, or for some players chalice of the void decks.

    one of the decks i like playing the most is ruby storm, i could easily play ANT and call it a day. i choose not to because i prefer to play something that involves some tinkering on my side, and not approaching it purely from an execution standpoint.

    regardless if that esper delver mentor deck is built wrong, it could still be interesting to understood why JPA won with it.

    did he have good matchups? (what were they?)
    did he just outplay the opponents? (then maybe decklist is irrelevant) etc.

    JPA is a very good player, shouldn't we try to understand some of the deckbuilding logic here?

    these are the kinds of questions that are useful in asking, instead of assuming we know everything.

    if there's one thing i've learned in mtg over the long span of years i've been playing, it's that we shouldn't make assumptions about cards/decks until you've at least piloted the deck or tried them to see if there is actually merit.

    btw i found that blue list (and conveniently it doesn't have brainstorm or ponder).


    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Narset, Parter of Veils
    4 Lore Broker
    3 Vendilion Clique
    4 Day's Undoing
    4 Preordain
    4 Boomerang
    2 Commandeer
    2 Flusterstorm
    4 Foil
    4 Force of Will
    4 Chrome Mox
    2 Back to Basics
    1 Blast Zone
    1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
    1 Gemstone Caverns
    14 Island
    1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

    sb:

    2 Commandeer
    1 Flusterstorm
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Ravenous Trap
    4 Surgical Extraction
    [/cards]

    with this deck:

    what are you hoping to play against?
    what are you looking to dodge?
    what cards are interesting? are they optimal for this strategy?
    does the new set offer anything?
    does the player who went 5-0 (zackwithak) have any comments (if they are even on thesource?)
    -rob

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    -4 Preordain, +4 Chalice
    -2 singleton lands, -2 Island, +4 Ancient Tomb

    Deck family Splinter Twin -> upgraded version known as As Foretold stompy. The deck skeleton is mostly solved. Assuming group build-skeleton incorporated, we ask: does your deck do something different. The answer is yes. While it's probably less powerful than alt-casting Balance, it's a fundamentally different strategy.

    Reason to play this deck: Foil -> discard Echo of Eons. The four cuts: Lore Broker.

    Further deck optimization:
    -probably don't play B2B
    -cut Island total in half, q.s. with Vista and Tarn. (SB option basic Mountain, Blood Moon if you feel like you need land hate)
    -SB Boseju x2ish
    ---
    Your questions:
    -Hoping to play vs slower combo or scoops to Chalice x=1.
    -Hoping to avoid Burn, fast combo, dredge mechanic, SB Choke, anything with board presence.
    -questions 3 & 4 answered prior.

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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    -4 Preordain, +4 Chalice
    -2 singleton lands, -2 Island, +4 Ancient Tomb

    Deck family Splinter Twin -> upgraded version known as As Foretold stompy. The deck skeleton is mostly solved. Assuming group build-skeleton incorporated, we ask: does your deck do something different. The answer is yes. While it's probably less powerful than alt-casting Balance, it's a fundamentally different strategy.

    Reason to play this deck: Foil -> discard Echo of Eons. The four cuts: Lore Broker.

    Further deck optimization:
    -probably don't play B2B
    -cut Island total in half, q.s. with Vista and Tarn. (SB option basic Mountain, Blood Moon if you feel like you need land hate)
    -SB Boseju x2ish
    ---
    Your questions:
    -Hoping to play vs slower combo.
    -Hoping to avoid Burn, fast combo, dredge mechanic, SB Choke, anything with board presence.
    -questions 3 & 4 answered prior.
    it's good feedback.

    my guesses (i haven't played the deck)

    preordain was to help find combo pieces, between preordain and narset -> you could dig reliably without shuffling the deck. if the deck incorporates the new blue twister, it could be pretty interesting here.

    lore broker is maybe a little too cute, but does work with narset as a discard effect + loot.

    i'm not sure if ancient tomb is extremely helpful for this deck, as you are pretty reliant on getting double blue. a deck like this also really needs to not hurt itself as best as it can.

    chalice also lowers the blue count.

    double blue cards: narset, clique, the jace, boomerang. hands with tomb can be a bit clunky. my guess here is that while chalice is extremely strong (enough for this player to warrant 4 in the board, it has matchups where it just isn't very good. it's possible that this deck can't take advantage of a turn 1 chalice enough. it's also possible i'm way off here. i'd still rather see a turn 1 chalice vs a lot of decks, even if i don't have a good follow up.

    the fetches, while they could improve some mana fixing or thinning of the deck - come at the life cost and again it looks like the original build was to maintain the deck order while digging for key cards.

    does the deck also get any useful toys with force of negation? could this even justify something like standstill in the sb?


    i think the reason to play this deck isn't really so much foil -> X, it's playing 4 narset maindeck and being able to support it with as many reactive cards as possible. it looks like this deck is looking to stall the game, then drop a narset, counter something on their turn, then activate narset again and ideally day's undoing.

    i think there's a similar modern version, and it's likely this is just a port from that deck. to me this is quite a different brew than as foretold stompy, which is looking to steal wins with chalice and drop a planeswalker (or cast suspend + no cc spells like balance and visions). that by its own nature is a proactive deck, this is a reactive one.
    -rob

  18. #18
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    here's another deck that looks so weird, it could only come from japan:

    for reference: https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236099/show/


    4 Ornithopter
    4 Roterothopter
    2 Hope of Ghirapur
    4 Glint-Nest Crane
    3 Sai, Master Thopterist
    2 Master of Etherium
    1 Etched Champion
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Springleaf Drum
    4 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Cranial Plating
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Sword of Light and Shadow
    1 Tangle Wire
    1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Mutavault
    4 Darksteel Citadel
    4 Seat of the Synod
    2 Blast Zone
    1 Vault of Whispers
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Island

    Sideboard
    2 Blast Zone
    2 Hope of Ghirapur
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Etched Champion
    1 Sword of Feast and Famine
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Tangle Wire


    the core of the deck:

    3 Sai, Master Thopterist
    2 Master of Etherium
    4 Retrofitter Foundry


    seriously how cool is this deck? 4 retrofitter foundry? i didn't even know this card existed. i think this is a great example of a deck that there might not be too much to talk about, but couldn't really warrant its own thread on thesource or discord.

    turn 1 ornithoper, foundry, make a 4/4?

    this deck seems like an absolute nightmare for anything trying to control the board. hope of ghirapur actually gives some maindeck hate vs faster decks, and you're likely to connect with one of the equipment rather easily. again in this list it's interesting to see the player utilize something like darksteel citadel over ancient tomb, which would really help speed up the deck.

    is this an intentional decision? maybe so.

    this deck is one of the reasons i still like legacy, and don't care about playing tier 1 decks.
    -rob

  19. #19
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    // jpa93 (7th place) a legacy deck by jpa93 (dec) version

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 8 Creature
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Mentor

    // 18 Instant
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Liliana's Triumph
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    // 20 Land
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Plains
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    1 Swamp
    3 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea

    // 6 Planeswalker
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    // 8 Sorcery
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Ponder
    3 Thoughtseize


    // 15 Sideboard
    // 1 Artifact
    SB: 1 Null Rod

    // 6 Instant
    SB: 1 Disenchant
    SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

    // 1 Planeswalker
    SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

    // 7 Sorcery
    SB: 2 Council's Judgment
    SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
    SB: 2 Lingering Souls


    I wanted to start this with a brew which sees some play, but I think is more or less off the radar. Hoping to get some other's feedback on it, and start a conversation. Every few days or at least once a week I'll update the thread with a new deck, however anyone can post on here as long as they feel like the deck is innovative, or a brew, and had some kind of tournament showing, no matter how large the tournament.

    pros:
    threats are diverse
    delver for early game, mentor for early/endgame
    6 planeswalkers can outvalue and steal games
    daze + force + discard for anti combo
    reasonable amount of removal, but not too narrow.

    cons:
    light on threats
    manabase is a bit messy.
    cantrips + discard + delver is weak to chalice. (although teferi answers it maindeck)
    Love it! This deck is very interesting to me. The design of this deck itself is flawed though in that it does not have a direction. My suspicion is that it has not been tested sufficiently by people who know what to look for. To be specific, the Delvers and Dazes belong in one deck while the Planeswalkers and Mentors belong in another. Also, Lili's Triumph in a deck that does not have Liliana seems kinda silly. That makes the card just a worse Diabolic Edict. Also, Teferi while cool, probably does not belong in this deck at all. It wants a control-combo shell. So to wrap this up with some clarity, I like the new Narset a lot. I do not like this deck at all.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Retrofitter Foundry is an awesome anti-control card that I've enjoyed in various Painter lists, and I'd love to build a deck around it some time.However, in this particular list, I think that you simply MUST run The Antiquities War.

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