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Thread: Legacy Innovations and Brews

  1. #41
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i like this list. my only concern is painter doesn't add a lot of value without the red blasts. (of course it's another combo, which is cool)
    I'll see if I can come up with a list tonight that has at least 4 Pyroblasts and give it a spin.
    The problem is (from playing a ton of Painter) that blasts can be very polarizing.
    They're either the best card in your deck, or they're absolutely worthless, with no in-between.

  2. #42

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    ...
    Where'd ya find the list, and can you put tags around the deck?
    I could, but I have not a scoobie about how to do it!...

    I found it on the MTGO goldfish published deck lists.

    The same player got 3x 5-0s with different incarnations of this deck:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Angers

  3. #43
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  4. #44

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Just put a [cards] tag before, then close it with a /cards tag after the list.
    Thanks!

  5. #45

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit9mm View Post
    I'll see if I can come up with a list tonight that has at least 4 Pyroblasts and give it a spin.
    The problem is (from playing a ton of Painter) that blasts can be very polarizing.
    They're either the best card in your deck, or they're absolutely worthless, with no in-between.
    One thing about this list vs. mono-white bomberman is that you don't play Cavern of Souls, so it seems to me that adding back in 4 blast (even if sometimes bad) is worth it.

    I think the Lodestone Bauble (sweet as the mill win is there) might be a fine cut--even the mono-white lists are cutting it now.

    How have the opals been? And the deck in general (say, vs. "traditional" shortcake)?

  6. #46
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by shonenkakumei View Post
    One thing about this list vs. mono-white bomberman is that you don't play Cavern of Souls, so it seems to me that adding back in 4 blast (even if sometimes bad) is worth it.

    I think the Lodestone Bauble (sweet as the mill win is there) might be a fine cut--even the mono-white lists are cutting it now.

    How have the opals been? And the deck in general (say, vs. "traditional" shortcake)?
    I played some blasts last night. They were ok, but I felt like I was really sacrificing some of the explosiveness of running both combos and a full suite of fast mana.

    Lodestone Bauble definitely gets the cut once Goblin Engineer is out, since he can just dump your Ballista in the bin.

    Opals are great in this deck, although this deck runs many more artifacts than Shortcake.

    Edit: also, here is another brew I've been working on since the announcement of the London Mulligan being put into place.

    Here's my take on a 2-Card-Monte deck:

    4-Karn-Monte

    Land (16)
    4x Ancient Tomb
    2x Island
    4x Polluted Delta
    2x Seat of the Synod
    2x Swamp
    2x Underground Sea

    Planeswalker (7)
    4x Karn, the Great Creator
    3x Narset, Parter of Veils

    Instant (4)
    4x Brainstorm

    Creature (3)
    3x Painter's Servant

    Artifact (16)
    3x Grindstone
    3x Helm of Obedience
    3x Lion's Eye Diamond
    4x Lotus Petal
    3x Mox Opal

    Sorcery (10)
    3x Echo of Eons
    3x Ponder
    4x Thoughtseize

    Enchantment (4)
    4x Leyline of the Void

    Sideboard
    2x Collective Brutality
    1x Engineered Explosives
    1x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Flusterstorm
    1x Grindstone
    1x Helm of Obedience
    1x Lion's Eye Diamond
    1x Mycosynth Lattice
    1x Painter's Servant
    2x Perilous Voyage
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Anvil of Bogardan

  7. #47
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    looks fun. who'd have thought, brainstorm makes everything better! i wouldn't be opposed to a transmute artifact in there somewhere, to help find a combo piece on the fly. (might not be great, but worth a test)
    -rob

  8. #48
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    It seems that this thread has become a bomberman thread? Nothing wrong with that, but I was also wondering if anyone wants to join me in brainstorming something for Wren and Six? I feel that this is a strong card and that it is a strong card in decks that are not just Lands or Loam. I was brainstorming today ideas that could be built around Wren and Six.

    My first thought was to get a core - and it seems that in any RG list the core is Punishing Fire. The usual amount is 3 PFs and 3 Groves. The next core item is GSZ. GSZ is usually run with 4 creatures that are "Must Gets" (Gofy if aggro, KOTR, etc - whatever is necessary for the deck) and 3-4 "Target Creatures". One of the major reasons to run Wren is a wasteland lock (and perhaps even double up with Ghost Quarter). As such the core of this hypothetical deck could be:

    4 Wren and Six

    4 Main Creature
    2-3 [GSZ] Targets
    1 Ramunap Excavator

    4 GSZ
    3 Punishing Fire

    4 Wasteland
    3 Grove of the Burnwillows
    0-2 Ghost Quarter

    However, at this point, you quickly reach a couple of schisms, which have me stuck at the theoretical brewing stage.

    1) - The first fork is whether to run 1 CMC cards or to run Chalice. Chalice, while sounding crazy actually has some precedent in Sylvan Stompy decks. The issue with going the stompy route is that current Sylvan Stompy decks are WBG with both white (in the form of KOTR) and black (in the form of Decay and Trophy) playing important roles in the deck. Choosing to go the chalice route would place you in Fork 2(a). On the other hand, choosing to play 1 CMC puts you in fork 2(b) - which is mainly a choice of what is your third color.
    2(a) - If you run chalice the deck automatically acquires the following cards: 4 Ancient Tomb, 3-4 City of Traitors, 4 Mox Diamond, 4 Chalice of the Void. That is about 15 cards and combined with the above approximately 27 cards you have about 18 cards to play around with. That number decreases as you need to make room for about 22 (Wren should allow you to justify not running 24) That means out of the 18 cards you need to dedicate 8 spots to lands - leaving you 10 cards to play around with. The main issues to deal with are consistency (and thus you need a draw engine such as Sylvan Library or other) & Creature control (Ensnaring Bridge/Ghostly Prison or Decay/Trophy/Toxic). Moreover, as you are playing a stompy deck you have to either justify not running Karn the Great Creator or just run Karn. Assuming that it is impossible IMO for a stompy deck at the moment not to justify running Karn, you have to figure out a way to deal with the consistency/creature control issue with only about 6 cards, which seems almost impossible.
    2(b) - If you are running 1CMC cards, you can automatically add in 4 Lightning Bolt into your list, and then face your first choice: 4C or 3C. 4C is potentially very doable given that Nobel Hierarch exists, and you may of course run Mox Diamond which goes well with Wren. 3C would though be a tighter and more consistent list. The issue though is what is the deck. Loam/Land decks are traditionally controlled, moreover, Wren is given towards a controlling playstyle. The fact that we are already running Punishing Fire only feeds into the narrative that we are playing a controlling deck. It would be hard to switch to an aggro based approach. As such I feel that the deck naturally would play blue. For better or worse blue already comes with its own set of must plays which are: 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force of Will. Given that you are playing blue, you may as well run 4 Nobel Hierarch and given Wren you can afford some accel with 1-2 Mox Diamond. Given the mana sources you can probably play 16-17 Lands only. Taken together going blue actually puts you over 60 requiring that you cut cards. Still Temur seems like a viable route. That said blue forces you to run certain cards and those cards warp the deck in such a way that the only invovation left is figuring out what to cut and if the deck itself works like that. Instead one can avoid blue and choose either white (for STP and in terms of control - KOTR, Teeg, SFM package) or black (Discard, Decay/Trophy, LOTV). Not sure which is best, but does seem like space is too tight for 4C.

    Anyway, just wanted to present my general thoughts on possibly brewing with Wren to the group for discussion.

  9. #49
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    I don't see why you have to run tomb and City in a chalice deck. I think any deck running R&6 wants Mox diamond for the most part. Also I personally would rather be playing 1 drops like exploration and bolts and I guess crop torsion. I guess this deck is probably some hybrid between lands and aggro loam.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    -rob

  11. #51
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    This deck is from here probably: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...titania-legacy

    Very nice synergies in the above cards. Orcish Lumberjack surely deserves more attention and a new review since this article:
    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...fit_Cards.html

  12. #52

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    ...I was also wondering if anyone wants to join me in brainstorming something for Wren and Six? I feel that this is a strong card and that it is a strong card in decks that are not just Lands or Loam. I was brainstorming today ideas that could be built around Wren and Six.

    My first thought was to get a core - and it seems that in any RG list the core is Punishing Fire. The usual amount is 3 PFs and 3 Groves. The next core item is GSZ. GSZ is usually run with 4 creatures that are "Must Gets" (Gofy if aggro, KOTR, etc - whatever is necessary for the deck) and 3-4 "Target Creatures". One of the major reasons to run Wren is a wasteland lock (and perhaps even double up with Ghost Quarter). As such the core of this hypothetical deck could be:

    4 Wren and Six
    You could go some other directions, but the synergistic overlap with loam - in particular - is pretty clear. They overlap in color, casting cost, both want to see land cards in the graveyard and both put land cards into your hand. So they work well in similar conditions, and loam also has obvious synergy with the ult on Wren and Six. It's hard to come up with something where one would be good but the other would not.

  13. #53
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Loam is a huge mana sink. Wren only needs mana input once. Wren would also fit into tempo decks where wastelanding each turn doesn't come at the expense of a draw step, which tempo also generally requires.
    -rob

  14. #54
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    You could go some other directions, but the synergistic overlap with loam - in particular - is pretty clear. They overlap in color, casting cost, both want to see land cards in the graveyard and both put land cards into your hand. So they work well in similar conditions, and loam also has obvious synergy with the ult on Wren and Six. It's hard to come up with something where one would be good but the other would not.
    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Loam is a huge mana sink. Wren only needs mana input once. Wren would also fit into tempo decks where wastelanding each turn doesn't come at the expense of a draw step, which tempo also generally requires.
    That's essentially my thought process. Loam is mana-intensive and slow and lends itself to control builds by design. Wren though is cheap - can set up wasteland recursion and do other stuff for very cheap. I feel that it can be built around by allowing you to run tempo type builds (if you decide to run 1 CMC cards) or prison type builds (where you run chalice).

  15. #55

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    That's essentially my thought process. Loam is mana-intensive and slow and lends itself to control builds by design. Wren though is cheap - can set up wasteland recursion and do other stuff for very cheap. I feel that it can be built around by allowing you to run tempo type builds (if you decide to run 1 CMC cards) or prison type builds (where you run chalice).
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that punishing fires is a particularly good fit with a tempo game plan. My understanding is that "tempo" would mean something like slotting Wren into RUG delver to recycle wastelands and fetchlands and to occasionally do a lethal point of damage to a creature.

  16. #56

    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    If chalice and wrenn i propose the following package:

    4x gruul signet
    4x interplanar beacon
    4x mox diamond
    4x ancient tomb
    3x city of traitor
    4x wasteland
    4x grove of the burn willows
    3x punishing fire
    4x wrenn and six
    4x chalice of the void
    ----
    X taiga/foothills
    x blast zone
    X ghost quarter
    X choke
    Instants and sorceries that work with retrace ultimate, like chaos warp or rolling earthquake or something

    I just realized how insane wrenn ult is with ancient stirring...

  17. #57
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that punishing fires is a particularly good fit with a tempo game plan. My understanding is that "tempo" would mean something like slotting Wren into RUG delver to recycle wastelands and fetchlands and to occasionally do a lethal point of damage to a creature.
    No fair enough - I just always saw PF as a back up safety valve in RG decks, but that was admittedly confusing a possible game plan.

  18. #58
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    If chalice and wrenn i propose the following package:

    4x gruul signet
    4x interplanar beacon
    4x mox diamond
    4x ancient tomb
    3x city of traitor
    4x wasteland
    4x grove of the burn willows
    3x punishing fire
    4x wrenn and six
    4x chalice of the void
    ----
    X taiga/foothills
    x blast zone
    X ghost quarter
    X choke
    Instants and sorceries that work with retrace ultimate, like chaos warp or rolling earthquake or something

    I just realized how insane wrenn ult is with ancient stirring...
    Not ideal with chalice.

    I'd be pretty interested in a deck with that free RG guy (modern manamorphose guy) could actually be in a zoo deck.
    -rob

  19. #59
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    Re: Legacy Innovations and Brews

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    it's been a long day, but i have some time to comment!

    the bug control deck is really interesting, utilizing the neoform to turn sprite and strix into TNN or Leovold at instant speed (as a 4/2 or 4/4 respectively), and making angler into griselbrand.

    a 4/4 leovold is super dangerous....but so again is a 8/8 griselbrand. it's a really nice take on a bug control deck.

    for the 2nd deck there's so much going on. it's clearly a deck that you will learn a lot of interesting tricks the more you play it. it's too bad mayhem can't be tutored with GSZ, it would be a really interesting way to just end the game for a low amount of mana.

    here's a new one that just popped up:


    3 Scrap Trawler
    2 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Ancient Stirrings
    3 Chromatic Sphere
    4 Chromatic Star
    3 Terrarion
    3 Defense Grid
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Ichor Wellspring
    2 Prophetic Prism
    4 Karn, the Great Creator
    3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Forest
    1 Inventors' Fair
    4 Tree of Tales

    Sideboard
    3 Sai, Master Thopterist
    1 Scrap Trawler
    3 Thought-Knot Seer
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    2 Return to Nature
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Spine of Ish Sah


    if you're gonna go for a karn combo, you might as well have the most effective colorless mana generation. it actually looks like it can turn 2 pretty often, i wonder how crazy it needs to be to go turn 1. there's not too much else to comment here, other than people should probably try to understand the scrap trawler shenanigans if they want to play the deck. you'll be able to get to the 12 mana much easier if you do.

    i'm surprised this deck isn't running some number of pantskarn and maindeck sai (at least 1).
    -rob

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