Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 48

Thread: The London Mulligan

  1. #21
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,008

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Chancellor of the Annex's time to shine has come.
    Game 1 decks (Dredge, Reanimator, Belcher, Oops All Spells) all have a window of opportunity to push their luck. The bad news: opponents have better odds g2-3 to find hate. The good news: you also get better odds of finding your anti-hate, provided you have something that will swing the game in your favor. I know for my deck of choice (Turbo Depths) having access to Force of Vigor is massive.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  2. #22
    Hymn-Slinger
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    2,278

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think the only time Griselbrand is ever interesting is when the opponent is actually a moron and just kills themselves by drawing too many cards and but realizing they are dead on board
    I actually really don't mind Griselbrand at all. It's a stupid-ass card, but so are almost every card that is worth playing in Legacy. I'd rather have stupid-ass highly powerful cards to play then stupid-ass low-power cards any day.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  3. #23
    Member
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Berlin
    Posts

    1,947

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Are people forgetting that this was actually implemented on mtgo?
    -rob

  4. #24
    Member
    pettdan's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    470

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    What exactly does Griselbrand add to the game? I think of all of the games he's resolved against me o may have had 1 interesting game
    I just love to play Bizarro Stormy, a non-linear (it's not Tin-Fins, contrary to popular belief) combo deck that can be very powerful and flexible but nowhere near broken. Many games go to time[edit: or well, meant until late in rounds, not time necessarily] there is usually a lot of fighting back and forth, so it's not usually uninteresting games allthough it has those raw power wins too. Griselbrand may be a bit overpowered in SnT, though.. Ah, I'll save that discussion for another thread. ;)

  5. #25
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2015
    Location

    Detroit, MI
    Posts

    359

    Re: The London Mulligan

    It seems fine and a positive they considered the MTGO data for eternal formats. I played through that period of implementation and basically agree.

  6. #26
    Curmudgeon
    SpatulaOfTheAges's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2004
    Location

    Brussels
    Posts

    3,021

    Re: The London Mulligan

    It's just a much better version of the game to play with the London Mulligan, as it reduces *unnecessary* variance. If it pushes any cards over the edge in meta-game dominance, it would only be because those cards were ban list time bombs already; LED, Ancient Tomb, and Griselbrand seem like the only real candidates. The London Mulligan trial on MTGO was mostly the same meta-game, except for the Sunday of Niagra when there was an absurd amount of Reanimator in the top 32 of the Challenge. But since Niagra was drawing off many control players, that's hard to evaluate.

    So; good for the game, even if it does contribute to some bannings in the long-term.
    Early one morning while making the round,
    I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
    I went right home and I went to bed,
    I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.

  7. #27

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Who knows what the next-level effect of the effects will be, but aside from decreasing shitty non-hand games via an extra decision and less variance, seeing as this increases odds of finding key cards, hate cards, and anti-hate cards, I feel that: a.) Decks like Chalice decks will get better, as there's a key card, but fewer opponents mull to anti-Chalice cards compared to other match-ups, e.g. anti-graveyard combo cards b.) Manaless Dredge takes a hit as opponents can better mull to graveyard hate, and Manaless does not want to mull to anti-hate. Probably balanced out by the new additions of Force of Vigor/Negation. Oh and c.) a bit of a boost for non-Brainstorm decks, maybe, getting some of that ability to unmulligan at the beginning of the game.

  8. #28
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    1,096

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Issue is more that Ancient Tomb is made exploit/parasitize the going first mechanic. (The same can be said of Chancellor and to a lesser degree Leylines)

    Exploiting game structural imbalance to an even greater degree on the back of London mull will set Tomb on the plodding path to getting [rightfully] banned.

  9. #29

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Are people forgetting that this was actually implemented on mtgo?
    i think so. i heard a bunch from several grinders that it wasn't really all that bad (meaning that grizdaddy and chalice didnt run over the entire format while it was around)

    i'm sure it'll be fine. as an aside, the next several months in legacy will be real interesting with this mull change and all the new playable cards that will/have come into the format with the last 2 sets.

  10. #30
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,488

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Brainstorm has been 70% of the format for years now. I think tomb is fairly safe. Or I'd hope at least. Tomb decks aren't even particularly good so I'm not sure why it would warrant a ban.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  11. #31

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    'm not sure why it would warrant a ban.
    because it enables that hateful turn 1 chalice... i usually don't want to mulligan but i'm gonna love the london mull.
    my LGS used the london mull for about a month while it was on MTGO but switched back to paris mull for the past whatever.

    the london mull enables every non-BS deck a better (mull) hand; notice the only people complaining?

  12. #32

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Ban brainstorm, chalice, and sanctum prelate, imo.

  13. #33

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Issue is more that Ancient Tomb is made exploit/parasitize the going first mechanic. (The same can be said of Chancellor and to a lesser degree Leylines)

    Exploiting game structural imbalance to an even greater degree on the back of London mull will set Tomb on the plodding path to getting [rightfully] banned.
    This is a very good argument for the banning of all turn one plays that are good.

  14. #34
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    1,096

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    This is a very good argument for the banning of all turn one plays that are good.
    Take for instance Git Probe -> Sea -> Therapy, lose 2 cards on turn 0 (a play pattern made intolerable by Grixis Delver). This is of course far more abusive than Tomb/Chalice b/c it doesn't just inflame first player advantage, it also destroys the only compensatory mechanism of being second player.

    There is a very real difference between a good turn 1 play and a first player exploit. Exploits will most often exacerbate mana disparities and/or CA. Tomb is concerning b/c the things it powers out translate loosely to second player loses their first turn; i.e. first player gets to begin the game by taking two turns.

    The London mull will add consistency to the worst offenders. Overall the change will generally result in more real games of magic, but the exact opposite will be true in cases involving cards like Tomb/Chancellor/random Leyline/etc...

    For clarity I will simplify the analogy to chess. Pieces having different movement rules, amounts, point values is not the same as taking extra turns. If you could name one move in chess that exacerbates first player advantage more than any other, it would be moving two pieces with 1 move [castle]. Magic is not chess, and when you see a castle analog, we need to remember that the other side does not get access to the same double move.

  15. #35

    Re: The London Mulligan

    If anything I believe vintage dredge is almost dead because of this rule. The only fighting chance it has now is with the printing of Force of Vigor, but otherwise it is at the mercy of a 95% turn 0 Leyline of the Void.

    The same is true for other decks in other formats.

  16. #36
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
    Dice_Box's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    A Tabernacle in some random Valley.
    Posts

    4,822

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    There is a very real difference between a good turn 1 play and a first player exploit. Exploits will most often exacerbate mana disparities and/or CA. Tomb is concerning b/c the things it powers out translate loosely to second player loses their first turn; i.e. first player gets to begin the game by taking two turns.

    The London mull will add consistency to the worst offenders. Overall the change will generally result in more real games of magic, but the exact opposite will be true in cases involving cards like Tomb/Chancellor/random Leyline/etc...

    For clarity I will simplify the analogy to chess. Pieces having different movement rules, amounts, point values is not the same as taking extra turns. If you could name one move in chess that exacerbates first player advantage more than any other, it would be moving two pieces with 1 move [castle]. Magic is not chess, and when you see a castle analog, we need to remember that the other side does not get access to the same double move.
    Kind of, but not really. Playing with Sol Lands structurally changes how you build your deck. While it rewards strong openings it punishes you by increasing variance and restricting your options for in game advancement. You also often have little else should your opening gambit be denied.

    In the chess analogy, it would be like I sometimes get to move twice, but the pay off is every few turns my Rooks, Bishops and Queen can only move 3 spaces. Sure, it is ok sometimes, but it's going to really hamper me over the length of a tournament.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  17. #37
    Member
    Fallen_Empire's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2016
    Location

    Seattle, WA
    Posts

    159

    Re: The London Mulligan

    If your deck can't beat a turn 1 chalice is it a real deck? Blue has access to 8 force's now. The only reason chalice is good is because people are too greedy to build a proper deck. There are like 20k cards in magic, maybe people should run two drops. Should we ban blood moon too because people who choose not to run basics feel sad? Welcome to legacy, if you don't like degeneracy what are you doing here? There are like only 3 engines in legacy: mox diamond, brainstorm and sol lands. Do we really want to knock out a pillar of the format because ancient tomb is "oppressive"?

  18. #38
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Chilltown
    Posts

    871

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire View Post
    If your deck can't beat a turn 1 chalice is it a real deck?
    I'll disregard everything else you wrote because [EDIT: a) asked and answered, and b)] conservatively that'd encompass around half of the field—more if Force- or Daze-containing decks don't start with one of those cards in hand.

    I pretty much can't lose to Lands with any of the decks I play regularly except Dredge; does that mean Lands is a bad deck?

    And is this thread gonna turn into the B/R thread like all the others?
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  19. #39
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    A desk chair, The Netherlands
    Posts

    1,881

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Man if Chalice decks ever become a thing just run something w/ 4 Abrupt Decay and mayhaps 4 Assassin's Trophy. If Chalice becomes a thing the meta might change, so what? Is that really a bad thing? I mean, before all this people were complaining the format was stale.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  20. #40
    Member
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Berlin
    Posts

    1,947

    Re: The London Mulligan

    Karn kills chalice :)
    -rob

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)