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Thread: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

  1. #1

    Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    This forum used to be the premier source for all legacy discussion. Magic is more popular than ever, but this site and even the legacy reddit see barely any activity. Is there some other legacy forum people are posting at or is it all deck specific discords now? Or is legacy just dying altogether, thanks to the reserve list.

    This happened with vintage. As the prices of vintage staples shot up, first, the premier vintage forum (themanadrain) died and soon after the format as a whole died.

    Atleast locally, legacy has seen an uptick thanks to the MPC proxies and the Chinese fakes that finally made legacy accessible (none of us bat an eye about people using fake cards, we are just happy to have more players). Is that not the case everywhere?

    Discords are kind of useless in terms of acting as long term repositories of information. And while useful to people that only play one or two decks, they are useless for developing new decks or discussing the format as a whole. The same can be said about reddit and reddit is also much less organized than this. From what I have seen, discords dont see much activity either.

    I think the problem is deeper, and it’s the reserve list that is making legacy increasingly inaccessible and slowly killing it. If so, should other local legacy communities be more open to and encouraging of people playing with MPC cards that are clearly not even trying to pass for real cards, just to encourage more players in this wonderful format.

    MPC doesnt allow the use of any copyrighted images, so they dont break any laws and there is no way anyone will think the cards are genuine. But all of us locally are totally fine with people using them since this is the only way for legacy to go forwards as long as the reserve list is a thing...

    https://www.makeplayingcards.com/des...lank-card.html

    Some great proxy designs for MPC... https://www.reddit.com/r/mpcproxies/top?t=all

    As you can see from my post history, I mingle with and have dozens of different legacy decks built. My local legacy playgroup being okay with players that use MPC cards that arent even trying to be passed off as real magic cards is the reason why. Its so liberating for everyone to not have to worry about reserve list prices, and being stuck with just one or two decks and just being able to play whatever decks we want.

    Eventhough I have playsets of most of the dual lands and legacy staples, it doesnt make sense to play with them now that they are worth thousands of dollars. The cards are safely stored away and I use MPC versions of any card thats worth over a $50. Most everyone in my playgroup does the same now.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 06-25-2019 at 12:13 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    This forum used to be the premier source for all legacy discussion. Magic is more popular than ever, but this site and even the legacy reddit see barely any activity. Is there some other legacy forum people are posting at or is it all deck specific discords now? Or is legacy just dying altogether, subsumed by Modern.

    Atleast locally, legacy has seen an uptick thanks to the MPC proxies and the Chinese fakes that finally made legacy accessible (none of us bat an eye about people using fake cards, we are just happy to have more players). Is that not the case everywhere?

    Discords are kind of useless in terms of acting as long term repositories of information. And while useful to people that only play one or two decks, they are useless for developing new decks or discussing the format as a whole. The same can be said about reddit and reddit is also much less organized than this.

    Assuming that legacy is still alive and kicking, I would prefer that this forum finds a way to thrive again but what would that take? Do newer legacy players and people on reddit even know that it exists? Should people talk about this place more at their local card shops?
    I don't like the Discord channels, I find that they get a little echo-chamber-y and it is hard to actually move forward. One of the reasons I love this format is that people from all decks will hop into a thread and give opinions and feedback.

    Unfortunately, "the kids these days" love their discords as the voice chat makes gaming ie fortnite, LoL, Overwatch etc... the place to chat and discuss things.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Legacy has died down here despite the GP in December. Sucks to see. Hopefully when we get closer there maybe will be some demand for the format
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  4. #4

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Legacy has died down here despite the GP in December. Sucks to see. Hopefully when we get closer there maybe will be some demand for the format
    totally agree. I went to standard where it is possible to play a quasi miracle control deck with Settle the Wreckage as Terminus and many good Pws, Azcanta and so on..

    that allows you to play much more and normally at a cheaper price

  5. #5
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    Re: Where did everyone go?

    You are not the first to notice, but yea, it sucks.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  6. #6

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I am curious if it is a sign of legacy as a whole dying as a result of the reserve list. Thats what happened to Vintage. First themanadrain forum died and then so did Vintage as a whole.

    But legacy has a shiton of cards not legal in modern, where as vintage only has a few cards that are not legal in legacy. With magic being more popular than ever, surely lots of people are discovering old cards only legal in legacy that synergize with their favorite strategy. And legacy isnt that degenrate. Midrange decks and decks of all archeatypes are viable in legacy.

    So I have to imagine its mainly the reserve list thats holding the format back. If so, we as legacy players need to embrace and even encourage the use of MPC cards if we dont want our favorite format to meet the same fate as Vintage.

    I would like to request that a mod change the title of the thread to “Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies to prevent legacy’s death?”

    Is there any good way to approximate how popular legacy is today vs five years ago?

  7. #7

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    ...
    But legacy has a shiton of cards not legal in modern, where as vintage only has a few cards that are not legal in legacy. With magic being more popular than ever, surely lots of people are discovering old cards only legal in legacy that synergize with their favorite strategy. And legacy isnt that degenrate. Midrange decks and decks of all archeatypes are viable in legacy.

    So I have to imagine its mainly the reserve list thats holding the format back. If so, we as legacy players need to embrace and even encourage the use of MPC cards if we dont want our favorite format to meet the same fate as Vintage.
    ...
    I can only speak for myself but the only reason I ever played legacy was because of MTGO. There's zero chance of ever playing legacy live since:

    a) there's zero legacy play where I live
    b) I would never be able to afford a competitive and t1 legacy deck (which I think is largely the reason for a) )

    Now, with MTGO going, I linger around here to remind of the good ol' times when I could play legacy. With regards to live play, people that delude themselves that the restricted list is not the cause for the slow asphyxiation of this format are well, wrong.

  8. #8
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    Re: Where did everyone go?

    11 May 2018: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...fficially-dead
    31 March 2019: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...fficially-dead

    This forum is the latest in a series of casualties that begun in September 1993.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    You don't get to play the most powerful cards in the format and then bitch when someone finally says no. You also don't get to bitch that it's not fun when someone finally tells you no instead of voyeuristicly watching you masturbate with Cantrips.

  9. #9

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    I can only speak for myself but the only reason I ever played legacy was because of MTGO. There's zero chance of ever playing legacy live since:

    a) there's zero legacy play where I live
    b) I would never be able to afford a competitive and t1 legacy deck (which I think is largely the reason for a) )

    Now, with MTGO going, I linger around here to remind of the good ol' times when I could play legacy. With regards to live play, people that delude themselves that the restricted list is not the cause for the slow asphyxiation of this format are well, wrong.
    MTGO is going? Where?
    - 'Pathy' on MTGO
    - Eastern PA player

  10. #10

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Got tired of doing MODO while having zero paper legacy around. Very populous area and ranked highly in the US, but it isn't on a coast or huge metro area. That was the primary reason I moved on to other things and began selling cards (also got married, have baby on the way, moving away from gaming hobbies). Still linger around here and in discord channels, but I haven't played in over a year.

  11. #11

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    MTGO is going? Where?
    Give it a couple of years. When Arena has got it's own modern format, drafting against other humans and is racing full steam ahead, MTGO is as good as dead. I was shocked with the numbers present in the leagues last time I logged in. Besides, Core 2020 is the first release where they are linking paper to arena which is a sign of things to come. Did you ever see MTGO linked to whatever was happening in paper?...

  12. #12

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    I think high-quality proxies are freaking fantastic and wish more players wouldn't feel any shame in using them. I think there should be an official "look the other way" policy at FNM-level tournaments.



    I got into Legacy looking at Vintage cards thinking "I'll never be able to afford that", I can imagine how players look at Legacy today thinking "I'll never to be able to afford that". (Even though Modern prices are batshit insane, which is very demonstrative of how popular that format is... But one that I've never really enjoyed.)

    It doesn't help that I moved somewhere with only a handful of people to play Legacy with, and they each only have a single deck or two so the metagame gets stale pretty quick. (Put a playset of Faerie Macabre in the sideboard and I'll be alright...)

    And then Standard and Draft have been fun, and Commander is a hoot, so Legacy is like this dark art I get to play once every six months or so. I try to look at the top decks and innovations to not get blindsided but I can't invest too much time in it.



    And then forums in general are withering on the vine because people would rather be spoon-fed consensus nowadays rather than wade through individual thought and meandering arguments.

  13. #13
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    I've played in shops that allowed proxies as far back as 2009, and the events were generally fine. Counterfeits, though, are cancer and shouldn't be lumped in with proxies. The intention with counterfeits is deception.

  14. #14
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    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    As someone new to legacy, I think that proxies would be incredibly beneficial. Coming from a different angle entirely, I've found it very difficult to decide on what strategy\deck I want to play. Since none of the stores in my area that I've been to so far allow proxies, I only really get to watch other players online or risk buying cards for a deck I won't enjoy. I truly believe that people would end up buying the real thing if they were allowed to play with proxies. Just look at how people like to foil out their decks.

    In addition to that, I think a lot of modern players would look at legacy as a place they could go to to get away from the degenerate decks that are plaguing modern right now. The problem is that, for example, a playset of FoW cost almost the equivalent of half a new Modern Deck, and more than the price of some of mine. If those players could get in and try it out without dishing out that kind of upfront cost, they might find they like it enough for the price tag.

  15. #15

    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    ... If those players could get in and try it out without dishing out that kind of upfront cost, they might find they like it enough for the price tag.
    Logically, when this is the cost of a mere 12 cards:


  16. #16

    Re: Where did everyone go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Begle1 View Post
    I think high-quality proxies are freaking fantastic and wish more players wouldn't feel any shame in using them. I think there should be an official "look the other way" policy at FNM-level tournaments.
    Truth.

    I couldn't agree with you more. But I get why some stores might dislike "high-quality" proxies that look like the real thing. However, I see no reason why MPC cards are anything stores/players at FNMs should care about. They're clearly not trying to pass off as genuine. Why not allow them so that legacy can have more players.

    I dont think Wizards should care either. Sure these MPC proxy players aren't spending thousands of dollars to buy reserved list dual lands. But these same players are playing magic, and are definitely picking up $5-$10 singles from new sets that slot into their favorite decks. I've spend $200+ on MH's singles and already preordered a few Magic 2020 singles as well for my decks. That's good for both Wizards and for game stores.

    If my local community didn't allow me to play with MPC proxies, I wouldn't even be playing Magic right now, would have sold out of the hobby and moved onto something I could actually afford. Sure if I have enough staples to build maybe one or two legacy decks but what fun is that, to just play the same two decks over and over and over again. That's not what Magic was meant to be. And besides, I don't feel running around and playing with $1000 pieces of card board, I used to constantly worry that they would get damaged or stolen by someone whenever I was out of the house.

    Being able to play with MPC proxies was a huge boon for all of us locally. We get to play the decks we want, without worry about the price of the cards we are running around with, and play Legacy the way it's meant to be played. And it's the only way Legacy is going to draw in new players into the format.

  17. #17

    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    This forum used to be the premier source for all legacy discussion. Magic is more popular than ever, but this site and even the legacy reddit see barely any activity. Is there some other legacy forum people are posting at or is it all deck specific discords now? Or is legacy just dying altogether, thanks to the reserve list.

    This happened with vintage. As the prices of vintage staples shot up, first, the premier vintage forum (themanadrain) died and soon after the format as a whole died.

    Atleast locally, legacy has seen an uptick thanks to the MPC proxies and the Chinese fakes that finally made legacy accessible (none of us bat an eye about people using fake cards, we are just happy to have more players). Is that not the case everywhere?

    Discords are kind of useless in terms of acting as long term repositories of information. And while useful to people that only play one or two decks, they are useless for developing new decks or discussing the format as a whole. The same can be said about reddit and reddit is also much less organized than this. From what I have seen, discords dont see much activity either.

    I think the problem is deeper, and it’s the reserve list that is making legacy increasingly inaccessible and slowly killing it. If so, should other local legacy communities be more open to and encouraging of people playing with MPC cards that are clearly not even trying to pass for real cards, just to encourage more players in this wonderful format.

    MPC doesnt allow the use of any copyrighted images, so they dont break any laws and there is no way anyone will think the cards are genuine. But all of us locally are totally fine with people using them since this is the only way for legacy to go forwards as long as the reserve list is a thing...

    https://www.makeplayingcards.com/des...tg-tokens.html

    Some great proxy designs for MPC... https://www.reddit.com/r/mpcproxies/top?t=all

    As you can see from my post history, I mingle with and have dozens of different legacy decks built. My local legacy playgroup being okay with players that use MPC cards that arent even trying to be passed off as real magic cards is the reason why. Its so liberating for everyone to not have to worry about reserve list prices, and being stuck with just one or two decks and just being able to play whatever decks we want.

    Eventhough I have playsets of most of the dual lands and legacy staples, it doesnt make sense to play with them now that they are worth thousands of dollars. The cards are safely stored away and I use MPC versions of any card thats worth over a $50. Most everyone in my playgroup does the same now.

    I come from themanadrain. Proxies don't help a format. Vintage was replaced by Old School, a format with ZERO proxies and Legacy. Proxies are counterfeits, period

  18. #18

    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Proxies don't help a format. Vintage was replaced by Old School, a format with ZERO proxies.
    And close to ZERO players.

  19. #19

    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    And close to ZERO players.
    THat's fine, there's also barely any power to support the format anyway. Besides, I've seen 100+ oldschool events regularly here in Europe. It is bigger than vintage was in the end of it's era.

  20. #20

    Re: Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    THat's fine, there's also barely any power to support the format anyway. Besides, I've seen 100+ oldschool events regularly here in Europe. It is bigger than vintage was in the end of it's era.
    This seems not in reality

    http://tcdecks.net/format.php?format...20Old%20School
    Why wouldn't you play Zoo? Instead of a 5/5 for B that's immune to Push, you can get a 4/5 for 1G that's not. And instead of a 3/2 flyer for U, you can get a 3/3 double conditional for G. Oh, and you also get to not include the two best colors in Legacy, or any of the best spells, and you're a dog to combo.

    What's not to love?

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