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Thread: Jedi knights

  1. #1

    Jedi knights

    I 4-0íd last night at LGS with this brew. Arcanist and mentor are best buddies. I outgrinded goblins g2 even though he resolved all 4 ringleaders.

    M1 2-0 vs UR delver
    M2 2-0 vs Lands
    M3: 2-0 vs Goblins
    M3: 2-1 vs colorless Stax

    Deck: JEDI KNIGHTS

    Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:8
    4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
    4 Monastery Mentor

    Spells:32
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Forked Bolt
    2 Lightning Bolt
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Council's Judgment
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Force of Will

    Lands:20
    1 Arid Mesa
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Island
    1 Mountain
    2 Plains
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard:15
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Blazing Volley
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Disenchant
    1 Null Rod
    2 Back to Basics

    I will probably change Narsets for something else.
    Last edited by Jander78; 06-21-2019 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Fixed tags

  2. #2
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    Re: Jedi knights

    Meddling mage :)
    -rob

  3. #3

    Jedi knights

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    Meddling mage :)
    Thatís a really interesting idea. I was thinking i the lines of New Teferi or abrade (to sort of deal with chalice)

    Edit hereís my report

    M1 2-0 ur delver
    G2: I keep a hand with a hand with lots of interaction. He keeps a slow hand i have removal for all his threats. I play a turn 4 CB and get ahead with unkillable arcanist.
    G2: -2 Jace -2 narset -2 fow +3 blasts +2 fluster +1 volley.
    I play a mentor on turn 4. He bolts it, i fow. He flusters fow. I bolt his delver. His bolt resolves mentor survives and i win from there.

    M2: 2-0 vs lands
    G1: I plow an early ML. Then deploy CB and starts floating 2. I kill him with mentor through Tabby.
    G2: -3 bolts, -2 narset -2 pierce +2 disenchant +2 surgical +2 btb +1 mull rod.
    I disenchant his turn3 choke and plow an ML with arcanist drawing me cards. As he play his second mox i drop null rod followed by btb. Winning from there is easy. Cb blind counters a crop rotation.

    G3 goblins 2-0. I mull to six. He start with lackey i kill it. Next turn i play arcanist and kill a guy every single combat step.
    M2: -2 cb -2 pierce +2 disenchant +1 volley +1 null rod.
    I counter chalice then begin the insane grind. I got an active arcanist and for a while a Jace that and grind through 4 ringleaders before i overwhelm with monks.

    M4 stax 2-1
    G1: I mull to a perfect 6. Iím on the play play ponder. Fow his chalice, then play arcanist then mentor then win.
    G2 -2 narset, -2 cb -3 plow, +2 disenchant +2 btb +2 surgical +1 null rod
    I force chalice and surgical it. Next turn he resolves sphere and starts porting me. I never get to resolve mentor nor btb and scoops to smokestacks.
    G3 i lead with holding up pierce, he plays one mana land pass. I play another land ready to pierce whatever he plays and slam basics next turn. He plays metalworker, sadface. I draw fow, sadface again, ang chose between btb and mentor. I decide on btb which may have been wrong. He makes 8 mana off worker and leads with trini which i fow in to trini #2 and ratchet bomb. From there i make a token each turn intill he blues the bomb killing btb mentor worker and trini. He plays smokestacks and starts to up it. Ive been shipping away with monks and eaks out the last 2 damage before i must sac the last of my board.

  4. #4
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    Re: Jedi knights

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    Thatís a really interesting idea. I was thinking i the lines of New Teferi or abrade (to sort of deal with chalice)
    Force of Negation may perhaps round out the list well, protecting vs chalice and fast combo, being a good control element by being a 3 mana hardcast counterspell too.

  5. #5
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    Re: Jedi knights

    Would 2 Force of Negation be better than 2 Narsets? Or for a mix of Spell Pierce and Narset? Your deck generates so much card quality and card advantage that you can afford to take more 2-for-1s in exchange for having more answers to Chalice and ways to protect your Jedis.

    I always find it hilarious to see B2B in 3-color decks, but you do have a lot of basics. Do you want some number of Prismatic Vista to fetch directly into Island, Plains or Mountain? Each fetch you have can grab either dual or 2 of 3 basics, but not all 3 basics, don't know how much you need flexibility to get any basic.

  6. #6

    Jedi knights

    Yeah FoN seems really strong, as you say FTW, to protect the Jedis if nothing else. This deck is brute forcing through many other decks and protecting the boardstate is crucial. Thanks for the imput guys!

    EDIT: Btb is mostly for the post and lands decks. I bring it in if i cant fight their gameplan with removal or counters sufficiently. But yeah 7 basics feels great!
    Last edited by JackaBo; 06-22-2019 at 11:32 AM.

  7. #7

    Jedi knights

    I started writing a primer. Itís not finnished but Iíll leave it here

    What is jedi knights
    Jedi knights is blue white and red midrangey control decks that revolve around the card advantage engine of Dreadhorde Arcanist and a bunch of cantrips, together with the boardpresence of Monastery mentor and the same cantrips. Compared to a mentor-centric UWR miracle deck it has
    - no sweepers, given the higher creature count
    - a deeper red splash as the sweepers have been replaced with bolts as additional removal, reach and removal for walkers.
    - No or fewer snappys. 4 arcanist use the graveyard a lot.
    - More 1 mana cantrips at the cost of AK.
    - Given the tap-out nature of the deck it favours free counterspells over pierce, snare and CS

    Example decklist
    8 creatures
    4 Mentors
    4 Arcanist

    8 removal
    4 plow
    3 bolt
    1 EE

    8 counters
    4 force of will
    2 force of negation
    2 counterbalance

    4 walkers
    2 Jace
    2 narset

    12 cantrips
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 preordain

    20 lands
    4 island
    1 plains
    1 mountain
    2 tundra
    2 volcanic island
    1 plateau
    4 flooded strand
    4 scalding tarm
    1 prismatic vista

    Sideboard
    2 wear/tear
    1 shenanigans
    2 back to basics
    2 surgical extraction
    2 flusterstorm
    3 pyroblast
    2 containment priest
    1 chandra, tod

    Gameplan
    Jedi knights is very proactive, and unless you fight a combo deck, your biggest worry is your opponents removal. Most landwalking creatures are ĒmoatedĒ by monks or unable to race the monks. Opponents walkers are pressured by monks and bolts and you have a removal suite that is comparable to that of Grixis control (7 spot removal and infinite flashbacks) plus EE and Jace bounce.
    Practically you will win versus fair as long as your Jedis are alive.

    Card choices and play pattern

    The knights
    The preferable, most broken, play-pattern is
    T1 removal or cantrip into
    T2 Arcanist into
    T3 mentor plus flashback.
    This pattern takes advantage of arcanist better than any other deck in the sense that Arcanist not only provide CA but also ramps you up to 4 mana on turn 3. This feature of arcanist is rarely covered when Arcanist is discussed but it is one of the most important aspect of Arcanist in this deck. When I have played Mentor-centric miracle in the past getting that imideate value off mentor was a hard task. Iíve been trying BANT mentor (to power it out with hierarchs) and search for azcanta to act as ramp with late game CA potential. But no other configuration has come close to being as powerful as arcanist into mentor into free flashback. This interaction is so powerful that i think itís 100% correct to play brainstorm T1 if you have no other play and you know you will follow it up with arcanist into mentor - just to make sure you have a spell to Flashback on T3. I also believe itís correct to protect Arcanist with force of will/negation on turn 2. If he get to live you are in good shape.
    4 arcanist and 4 mentor is correct for the fair matchups where the nonbo of drawing multiples is negated by opponent removal. Versus combo tapping out for two or three cmc do nothing guys can be dangerous. I like to cut down to 3/3 and bring in whatever anti combo creatures i may have.

    Xerox
    The deck must run at least 12 cantrips; brainstorm, ponder and preordain. Itís possible, and possibly even correct, to run more than that, for example a one-off or a pair of Peeks. The cantrips fuel arcanist and mentor and gives you incredible consistency. It makes you however rather soft to chalice of the void unless you can land a mentor and make monks out of your cantrips.

    Counterbalance
    The cantrips also make counterbalance a good addition to the deck. As mentioned before this deck is very powerful if your opponent can not kill mentor and arcanist. And for this purpose counterbalance is very effective: almost all removal in legacy is one mana. The most common removal that cost more than one, edict and kcommand, is easy to play around with mentor. Jedi knights may the most consistent CB-on-one deck given the number or cantrips and Arcanist to flash them back.
    Counterbalance also is a powerhouse versus unfair decks where arcanist and mentors might be too slow.
    Unlike other arcanist decks this deck does not run black (eventhough that might not be out of question), thus there are almost no relevant spells to flashback versus combo. Thus, Jedi Knights rely on counterspells and lockpieces to fight unfair decks and the cantrip suite together with Arcanist to find them. It may be noted that the current maindeck is far better equipped to beat fair decks than fast combo.

    Playing around removal
    Preserving the Jedis is plan A versus fair. Mentor is very hard to remove for deck that relies on bolt as removal, even without counterbalance. Just play two spells in response to lightning bolt and mentor will survive. Therefore it may be a good idea to play removal on opponents turn, to premptively pump your team. This may also force them to play their removal on their own turn which is good because it turns on FoN. You have approximately 13 instants that pump your team plus 6 hard counterspells. More if you also run peek. Save them in your hand typ counter bolts versus fair red decks.

    Once you have estsblished both knights you might want to only cast ONE cantrip or removal per turn, then flashing it back with arcanist (givning you a double pump with one spell) while holding up FoN or FoW for opponents removal. This board will win on itís own just dig for answers for their answers.

    Pew-pew-pew
    You run 7-8 one mana removal spells. This makes it easy to draw them naturally and once you got Arcanist online you get to machine-gun opponents board. Bolt and plows may seem like a contradiction. But plow is just the best removal and bolt is the most flexible since it also kills walkers and low life players. They complement each others very well. When you trim removal post board you may cut plows first as bolt also can go to face.

    I like EE as my 8th removal. It deals with T1 chalice or T1 empty the warrens, both which this deck can struggle with. The deck plays zero one-drop permanents EE on one is powerful.

    Manabase
    The mana base is very stable. You are practically wasteland/b2b/bloodmoon proof. You want to naturally draw three lands with just one cantrip, for the most broken start, thatís why i like to run 20 lands. Versus non-wasteland, non-taxing decks itís safe to board out a basic land. With 20 lands thereís a risk of flooding. They way i see it however, either you got arcanist casting ponders filtrering your draw and you get to avoid flooding. Or you got mentor and cantrips to find relevant spells and flood the board. Or you have non of these and you are probably losing anyway - this deck needs an engine or it will fizzle.

    Sideboarding
    I like to divide the SB into 4 groups. Anti-chalice, anti-land, anti combo/control, anti grave. So the fair matchups are good the biggest risk is that they fight you with artifacts or enchantments. Thus it is reasonable to not have any anti-fair cards except for artifact or enchantment removal. Remember that we already fight walkers well with monks and bolts.

    I like shenanigans because its a recursive shatter that kills chalice on one. There is no card that kills chalice on one that you can Flashback with arcanist. Shenanigans can be dredged off a cantrip givning arcanist a role in itís recursion anyway.

    Another troublesome permanent is choke. There i like wear tear because you can two for one chalice and choke. Or you can kill chalice on T2 then later Flashback the wear side with Arcanist... right?

    Post decks are generally not too hard if you land mentor on turn 3. But so many of your cards have no text versus the inevitebility of titans. B2b is a nice card there. Itís also great against lands, and the greedy Wren decks. This deck btw, is super strong versus wren: wasteland recursion means nothing and the 1 damage ping is pointless.

    Surgical and containment priest are great versus reanimator, Sneak n show and dredge and decent against lands, the new bombardment decks as well as Elves, DnT. Note that surgical can be flashed back. Priest can be flashed in as a ambush viper. Itís possible priest could be clique or snappy depending on your meta and playstyle. I believe that SnT, dredge and reanimator are our toughest matchups so priest seems good.

    Flusterstorm and pyroblast is necessary to fight unfair and countermagic and removal from control decks. Pyroblast is great as it can be cast as a counter and flashed back as removal. These spells come in usually in the place of the plows and a bolt. If you think 3 pyro are excessive, Hydroblast could take a spot.

    Chandra can be brought in vs control as Jace and narset can be weak vs opposing pyroblasts.

    There is some merit in running Blazing Volley as additional removal if you have a lot of Elves or DnT. It can be flashed back.

    Matchups

    Delver-great
    This decks is very strong versus delver decks. Mongose is stonewalled by arcanist in the early game, monks in the late game. Pyromancer is outclassed by mentor. TNN may be too slow of a clock versus an opposing mentor. The biggest threat is flipped delver and for that we run 8 cards maindeck and blasts in the board. The deck runs 19-20 lands of which 6-7 are basics. Dying to delver, wasteland, daze should be really hard with this deck.

    Take out Jace and narset maybe FoN
    Put in flusterstorm and pyroblast and maybe b2b

    Other fair -good
    This deck is good against non chalice fair decks or unfair creature decks. You will have infinite removal as long as they dont get to kill Arcanist. I have card-out-advantaged Goblins with one arcanist and for couple of turns a Jace even though he resolved all four ringleaders, killing his guys one by one with bolts, plows and combat trading.
    Trim a few cards to fit in the wear-tears and perhabs b2b. Priest can come in versus ghasts, vial and gsz.

    Control - deece
    Heavy control may be harder because if they get to kill your arcanist or mentor before they get to pay off you are in big trouble. Itís important to dedicate part of the deck to threats that can take you back into the game versus control. Counterbalance is such a card and I think a pair of Jaces is a given. Outside if that Narset, teferi and Chansra are possible inclusions. It is possible that it can be right to make room for 4 AK if the meta is filled with much control. Narset it not such a big issue for this deck given itís aggressive nature and lightning bolt.
    Trim a land and removal but save a few bolts for walkers. In with flusterstorm, pyroblasts. Surgical can come in versus removal plus snappy-decks. If you run more walkers, bring them too.

    Chalice- little rough
    Chalice decks can be a problem since your deck is so heavy on cantrips. In my current 60 i have 6 turn zero counterspells which i wont think twice about fireing off on chalice for one. There is also one-off EE that kills chalice. I want 2-3 cards that deals with a resolved chalice in the board.

    Trim removal and cantrips and possibly an arcanist for wear tear, shenanigans and b2b.

    Fast combo-thereís a sideboard
    You run 6 fows plus two counterbalance post board. That and a fast clock is all you got. Post board you have up to 8 removal and some walkers to cut. The sideboard should reflect that.

    Take out a land, trim on removal, one of each knight, and walkers
    In with fluster, reb, surgical and if applicable priest
    Last edited by JackaBo; 07-07-2019 at 06:55 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Jedi knights

    Been testing this list a bit lately. It seems ok. I don't really like narset too much in here as she sometimes pushes past your threats. The creatures usually seem to get blown up too, which makes me want to fit a couple more in here. Something like true-name.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  9. #9

    Re: Jedi knights

    Great idea! Keep testing and report back!

  10. #10

    Jedi knights

    More testing:
    Played 4 rounds of legacy yesterday
    I 2-0íd oldschool eldrazi stompy and omnitell. I had sol tight games that I eventually won vs 4c Loam and lost to newschool walkerpost.

    I played a Newferi over second Narset. Iím not ready to make any larget changes as of now.

    I did realize my Sb was pretty badly mapped. I had way more to take out than to side in. I need to think more about this. Perhabs i should dedicate more to the bad matchups.

  11. #11
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    Re: Jedi knights

    My first thought is that b2b and null rod are great for the eldrazi post matchup, you already play 2 b2b so that seems perfect but considering that you run no artifacts with abilities s null rod would have wide applications in your list, maybe consider changing one of your three artifact removals? Or a containment priest perhaps, you have so much interaction for stopping the enablers, I imagine.

  12. #12

    Jedi knights

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    My first thought is that b2b and null rod are great for the eldrazi post matchup, you already play 2 b2b so that seems perfect but considering that you run no artifacts with abilities s null rod would have wide applications in your list, maybe consider changing one of your three artifact removals? Or a containment priest perhaps, you have so much interaction for stopping the enablers, I imagine.
    Thanks for great advice!

    I did run null rod last time but switched for shenanigans , mostly to try it out. Null rod and shenanigans accomplish the same thing while null rod is much faster but has no text vs chalice. My reasoning was that chalice is the biggest enemy. I might try null rod again though since itís a great card.

    Priest is not negotiable to me. First and foremost i expect SnT and Reani to Rise when people durdle with wren. Secondly hate bears are super strong in control: As soon as it comes down all your counters can be used to keeping it alive, rather than twarting every attempt.

  13. #13
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    Re: Jedi knights

    Your FoW's and FoN's answer chalice too, it seems like Null Rod might be better than a third sb artifact removal since it potentially single-handedly wins certain matchups, but of course I see your point, reliably answering common threats may be worth it.

  14. #14

    Re: Jedi knights

    Hey folks,

    thought I could chime in, as I'm testing smt very similiar atm and maybe it might give you some new ideas. The list developed for me from playing DazeMiracles with very good results in the half past year. With the printing of Arcanist me (and Claudio, GP Lille winner) started (again!) testing something very similiar. For me this always is a strong sign, if two players indepently come to a similiar conclusion/decklist. The missing card/piece of the puzzle of course is DAZE. The idea is, to have as many CA/CQ engines in the early- to midgame, which are that good/pulling you as far ahead, that the inclusion of Daze as another softcounter is warranted. While we experimented with many Predicts and CBs before, Arcanist gives another must-handle two drop, that goes well with our 12-cantrip-suite. Terminus still is a hell of a card, and as I see Arcanist more as a tool to pull ahead and as another creature, that makes the opponent overextend, I still like the card and view the deck probably more controllish than the one of the opening post. So without further ado, this is where I'm at the moment:

    2 Prismatic Vista
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Scalding Tarn
    2 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Plains
    1 Mountain
    4 Island

    3 Monastery Mentor
    4 Dreadhorde Arcanist

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain
    3 Portent

    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    1 Spell Pierce

    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Lightning Bolt
    1 Council's Judgement
    3 Terminus

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Counterbalance
    2 Predict

    Board:
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Wear//Tear
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Back to Basics
    1 Counterbalance

  15. #15
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    Re: Jedi knights

    Shouldn't this deck just be Stoneblade at this point? I've been leaning further and further into stoneblade territory with my lists and it just makes sense.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  16. #16

    Jedi knights

    Hey Zerzab11
    Thanks for sharing your work with Arcanist in Miracles - thatís practically what I started with too. Daze is of course a powerful magic card and mr. Bonanni is an accomplished miracle player that has advocated daze before. It sounds a little like how that old Reid Duke Leovold used daze.

    I havenít been able to play this list as much as i had wanted to. In my little testing however, i feel like the own game plan is so strong that I usually dont care what opponent are putting into play, unless iím facing combo. Iím really not sure what I would want to daze. My losses have mostly been because mentor have been removed or arcanist was removed and i did not find mentor. And fighting removal isnt daze strongest side. I really like the six hard counters together with counterbalance.

    Please report back if you do any more testing. Iíd be interested to hear what spells you daze and how that affect the game. Iím definitely open to trying that if for instance sweepers like deluge becomes more frequent. Right now people seem to favour the Engineer which is eaily handeled with the MD 7 removal.

    TheFreakaccident:
    Interesting! Iím not high stoneforge mystic as a card so i may be biased. Can you elaborate, why are you leaning into it? What do you want from mystic? What does it do that mentor (i guess you replace?) doesnt do? Which problems does it fix? Whatís your list like?

    My biggest concern have been draw-engine outside of Arcanist, and SoFaI crossed my mind. Then on the other hand if i have a guy to equip it on and opponent no relevant blocker iím probably already winning.
    Last edited by JackaBo; 07-18-2019 at 04:55 AM.

  17. #17
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    Re: Jedi knights

    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Scalding Tarn
    2 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    3 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Mountain

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Preordain

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Lightning Bolt
    1 Council's Judgment

    4 Force of Will
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Dovin's Veto
    1 Counterspell
    1 Spell Pierce

    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Dreadhorde Arcanist

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils

    For reference, this is not my list. This is a list I have stolen from the player Ophidian from the Stoneblade forum. Been playing the list a bit and it's been sweet.

    I really like the addition of hard counters in place of counterbalance. Counterbalance WILL win you some games, but i've been finding it extremely inconsistent and lack luster most of the time even with all the cantrips from the original list. True-name is the deck's finisher and i'm pretty pleased with him overall. He's slow, but steady.

    I feel stoneforge and mentor fit the same slot and you can't really run both. Mentor leaves back prowess tokens and stoneforge leaves you with an equipment. But! Mentor comes online at turn 3 at the earliest, and you never want to cast it unprotected. An unprotected mentor dies without value 95/100 times in my experience. This is my biggest issue with mentor.
    Originally Posted by Forbiddian

    "Drawing it consistently" is a joke. It doesn't matter whether you have 10 copies or 1 copy. Some games you'll start with it. Some games you'll start without it
    .

    I'm thoroughly convinced that talking to you morons kills braincells. Your parent's should have been sterilized.

  18. #18

    Jedi knights

    The deck looks sweet! There are quite some synergy with arcanist and equipment, which i like.

    I do believe you run too few one-drops to support 4 Arcanists. If you even drop the second you need more.

    My personal belief is that mentor is a stronger card than stoneforge mystic.
    I also think that arcanist is much better at flasing back in a mentor-deck. Stoneblade doesnt benefit on the ramp nearly as much and you dont have the same synergy of silly amounts if cantrips and mentor and arcanist. Actually i think snappy is just better in that deck, the you can flash in and equip and flashback counterspell. Keep testing though, it looks pretty sweet.

  19. #19

    Re: Jedi knights

    Did some more testing and concluded that the meta of wren delver, wren control and uw is rather hostile towards a creature based value engine.

  20. #20
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    Re: Jedi knights

    This deck seems to be catching on really well now. Maybe need to change title to Jeskai Mentor to reflect what people are calling it (or BAE even).

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