reserved list crumbling?

[Humphrey]

no discussion about it yet?

[apple713]

There is a pretty significant difference between the two cards that makes them functionally different enough to get around the reserve list.

Lotus field etb tapped and you sacrifice tapped or untapped lands. So on t3 when you play it you will have 2 mana.

Lotus vale requires that the lands sacrificed are untapped because it can tap for 3 mana the turn it etb.

So, under normal conditions lotus vale is faster but does not have hexproof. That trade off is significant.

Although your natural instinct may be to think, who is going to want to play lotus vale in legacy with all of the wastelands running around...it boils down to speed vs protection which is a common tradeoff in mtg.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Only if you think lands like Breeding Pool are also functional reproductions of Tropical Island.

[Humphrey]

Only if you think lands like Breeding Pool are also functional reproductions of Tropical Island.

no but i think field is actually an upgrade and makes legendary duals much more reasonable. which would also fit perfectly into some sort of commander masters
also shocks happened long ago, before they tightened the reserved iirc

[FTW]

no but i think field is actually an upgrade and makes legendary duals much more reasonable. which would also fit perfectly into some sort of commander masters

Field is better in some situations and worse in others. Field can be forced to sacrifice it to itself and ETB tapped (slows down your curve), but it can sacrifice lands you've already used and also has hexproof.

also shocks happened long ago, before they tightened the reserved iirc

Shocks were printed in Ravnica block (2005-2006). The Reserved List was created in 1996 (after Chronicles annoyed collectors) and ended with Masques block, with the list finalized in 2002. Long before shocks.

Shocks were designed as a way to reintroduce basic land-typed duals into Extended in a way that was functionally different enough to respect the Reserved List and also powered down enough to be fairer. They only promised no functional reprints or new cards that completely invalidate the old ones. They have printed other cards that are functionally similar but fit into a different niche (e.g. Hypergenesis vs Eureka, despite the fact that Hypergenesis was more competitively viable).

[Megadeus]

Field is better in some situations and worse in others. Field can be forced to sacrifice it to itself and ETB tapped (slows down your curve), but it can sacrifice lands you've already used and also has hexproof.



Shocks were printed in Ravnica block (2005-2006). The Reserved List was created in 1996 (after Chronicles annoyed collectors) and ended with Masques block, with the list finalized in 2002. Long before shocks.

Shocks were designed as a way to reintroduce basic land-typed duals into Extended in a way that was functionally different enough to respect the Reserved List and also powered down enough to be fairer. They only promised no functional reprints or new cards that completely invalidate the old ones. They have printed other cards that are functionally similar but fit into a different niche (e.g. Hypergenesis vs Eureka, despite the fact that Hypergenesis was more competitively viable).

I think he meant that shocks were created before the crack down on the reserve list loopholes. Like the FTV and duel deck foils

[Humphrey]

There is a pretty significant difference between the two cards that makes them functionally different enough to get around the reserve list.

Lotus field etb tapped and you sacrifice tapped or untapped lands.

Lotus vale requires that the lands sacrificed are untapped because it can tap for 3 mana the turn it etb.
So, under normal conditions lotus vale is faster but does not have hexproof. That trade off is significant. vale gets you 3 and field 2+2, whats faster?

Although your natural instinct may be to think, who is going to want to play lotus vale in legacy with all of the wastelands running around...it boils down to speed vs protection which is a common tradeoff in mtg.thats exactly why vale is trash

[apple713]

Idk how you get 2+2???

Just because you prefer protection doesnt mean the speed vale provides is trash. Personally they are both garbage for legacy. What are you going to do, candelabra them?

[bruizar]

4x Scorched Ruins
4x Lotus Vale
4x Lotus Field
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chrome Mox
4x Blood Sun
4x Serum Powder

Make it happen yo!

What's the most powerful stuff we can cast?

[rufus]

I think that - although they have similarities - the drawbacks on Lotus Vale and Lotus Field are mechanically different enough that they might not fit into the same deck.

Lotus Vale enters untapped, and has the sacrifice clause as a replacement ability and eats untapped lands. Lotus Vale enters tapped, has the sacrifice ability as a trigger, and enters tapped.

That means that Lotus Field can work with untap effects like Amulet of Vigor and Candelabra of Tawnos while Lotus Vale does not, and, on the other hand, Lotus Vale enters untapped, so it's got potential to work in a deck that doesn't run untap effects. I think that Lotus Field is more likely to work in a deck with cards like Karoo.

[Megadeus]

4x Scorched Ruins
4x Lotus Vale
4x Lotus Field
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chrome Mox
4x Blood Sun
4x Serum Powder

Make it happen yo!

What's the most powerful stuff we can cast?

Inferno Titans or Eldrazi. I think I'd play a gentlemen's Banefire

[Humphrey]

Idk how you get 2+2???

rly? 2 from the field and 2 from the lands you sac

Just because you prefer protection doesnt mean the speed vale provides is trash. Personally they are both garbage for legacy. What are you going to do, candelabra them?

again, what speed? heck in a ld infested meta it might becworth to run field only for the protection

still calling it. legendary duals(hexproofed?) in (commander)masters 2020

[schweinefettmann]

They’re more likely to complete cycles than print new ones. Those duals from battlebond, I think, that checks for basics... they’re more likely to do enemy colour those duals than make something new, like if you have 4 snow permanents or something weird.

I would love for duals to come down in price, but I doubt it’d ever happen.

Actually, I’d really like to have a play set of workshops. But considering how I can barely afford my legacy deck as it is, I doubt I’ll ever get to even see one!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LOLWut]

I would love for duals to come down in price, but I doubt it’d ever happen.

It depends on the time frame we're talking about, and I don't know what the future trend is, but duals have actually come down quite a bit since their high.

They reached a high in June 2018 and since then:

Badlands has gone from $254 in June 2018 to $194 today
Bayou from $325 to $241
Plateau from $143 to $111
Savannah from $183 to $131
Scrubland from $193 to $140
Taiga from $168 to $139
Tropical Island from $336 to $210
Tundra from $327 to $273
Underground Sea from $699 to $444
Volcanic Island from $497 to $368

Data from "low" prices on MTGStocks

[mistercakes]

i think this was mainly due to the mass speculation that was occurring around that time. cards did overall go up (it was kind of expected for USEA to be around 300-400) then it jumped to 600, and now it's back down somewhere in between.

[Smuggo]

It's just a bit of spiking behaviour in an overall upwards trend, happens in all kinds of markets. But the long-term is that duals will keep on going up with the occasional price spike which you could do well out of if you time it right.

[Mr. Safety]

They reached a high in June 2018 and since then:

The pro tour included legacy in August 2018 with team trio constructed, which likely had a significant impact on dual prices. Ironically that was also when Death's Shadow took off in popularity and allowed players to include copies of Watery Grave alongside Underground Sea.

[MaximumC]

I'm glad someone made a thread about this because I've been tooting this horn for years:

http://themanadrain.com/topic/1473/t...st-red-herring

In a nutshell, the idea is this: blaming the Reserve List for access to Legacy and other formats is wrong. The Reserve List does not prevent WotC from printing cards that fulfill the same function as reserved cards. It ONLY prevents printing functionally identical cards. What prevents WotC from printing cards that could do a reasonable stand-in for dual lands (for example) is not the RL; it's the fact that such cards are probably a bad design.

On the flip side, it means that if you want WotC to improve access to eternal formats, you advocate for cards that fill the same ROLE as Reserve List cards. Like Force of Negation or Lotus Field.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

In a nutshell, the idea is this: blaming the Reserve List for access to Legacy and other formats is wrong.

It's actually right because...

The Reserve List does not prevent WotC from printing cards that fulfill the same function as reserved cards. It ONLY prevents printing functionally identical cards. What prevents WotC from printing cards that could do a reasonable stand-in for dual lands (for example) is not the RL; it's the fact that such cards are probably a bad design.

A lot of cards with bad design are very playable. Essential, even.