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Thread: reserved list crumbling?

  1. #1
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    reserved list crumbling?

    no discussion about it yet?

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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    There is a pretty significant difference between the two cards that makes them functionally different enough to get around the reserve list.

    Lotus field etb tapped and you sacrifice tapped or untapped lands. So on t3 when you play it you will have 2 mana.

    Lotus vale requires that the lands sacrificed are untapped because it can tap for 3 mana the turn it etb.

    So, under normal conditions lotus vale is faster but does not have hexproof. That trade off is significant.

    Although your natural instinct may be to think, who is going to want to play lotus vale in legacy with all of the wastelands running around...it boils down to speed vs protection which is a common tradeoff in mtg.
    Last edited by apple713; 07-08-2019 at 09:59 PM.
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Only if you think lands like Breeding Pool are also functional reproductions of Tropical Island.

  4. #4
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Only if you think lands like Breeding Pool are also functional reproductions of Tropical Island.
    no but i think field is actually an upgrade and makes legendary duals much more reasonable. which would also fit perfectly into some sort of commander masters
    also shocks happened long ago, before they tightened the reserved iirc
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    There is a pretty significant difference between the two cards that makes them functionally different enough to get around the reserve list.

    Lotus field etb tapped and you sacrifice tapped or untapped lands.

    Lotus vale requires that the lands sacrificed are untapped because it can tap for 3 mana the turn it etb.
    So, under normal conditions lotus vale is faster but does not have hexproof. That trade off is significant. vale gets you 3 and field 2+2, whats faster?

    Although your natural instinct may be to think, who is going to want to play lotus vale in legacy with all of the wastelands running around...it boils down to speed vs protection which is a common tradeoff in mtg.thats exactly why vale is trash
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Idk how you get 2+2???

    Just because you prefer protection doesnt mean the speed vale provides is trash. Personally they are both garbage for legacy. What are you going to do, candelabra them?
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  7. #7

    Re: reserved list crumbling?


    4x Scorched Ruins
    4x Lotus Vale
    4x Lotus Field
    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Chrome Mox
    4x Blood Sun
    4x Serum Powder

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  8. #8

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    I think that - although they have similarities - the drawbacks on Lotus Vale and Lotus Field are mechanically different enough that they might not fit into the same deck.

    Lotus Vale enters untapped, and has the sacrifice clause as a replacement ability and eats untapped lands. Lotus Vale enters tapped, has the sacrifice ability as a trigger, and enters tapped.

    That means that Lotus Field can work with untap effects like Amulet of Vigor and Candelabra of Tawnos while Lotus Vale does not, and, on the other hand, Lotus Vale enters untapped, so it's got potential to work in a deck that doesn't run untap effects. I think that Lotus Field is more likely to work in a deck with cards like Karoo.

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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Idk how you get 2+2???

    rly? 2 from the field and 2 from the lands you sac

    Just because you prefer protection doesnt mean the speed vale provides is trash. Personally they are both garbage for legacy. What are you going to do, candelabra them?
    again, what speed? heck in a ld infested meta it might becworth to run field only for the protection

    still calling it. legendary duals(hexproofed?) in (commander)masters 2020
    Last edited by Humphrey; 07-09-2019 at 12:20 PM.
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post

    4x Scorched Ruins
    4x Lotus Vale
    4x Lotus Field
    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    4x Simian Spirit Guide
    4x Chrome Mox
    4x Blood Sun
    4x Serum Powder

    Make it happen yo!

    What's the most powerful stuff we can cast?
    Inferno Titans or Eldrazi. I think I'd play a gentlemen's Banefire
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  11. #11
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Inferno Titans or Eldrazi. I think I'd play a gentlemen's Banefire
    Speaking of Eldrazi, one could run (maybe) a full playset of Eye of Ugins and City of Traitors, then "convert" them into Vales/Fields.

    Probably not good, but an idea none-the-less.
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  12. #12

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.

  13. #13

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.
    Lands aren't spells and don't have costs, it's a replacement effect, and Amulet of vigor will trigger on your Lotus Field's ETB (giving you one use before the sacrifice trigger).

    As for which one is better: Since both are unplayable outside a combo, the answer is "whichever one combos better with your cards"

  14. #14

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.
    Well, even with amulet, it still costs a land drop and a second land if you have it. So maybe if you're cheating land drops with Second Sunrise or something.

  15. #15

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Well, even with amulet, it still costs a land drop and a second land if you have it. So maybe if you're cheating land drops with Second Sunrise or something.
    You could run it with Brought Back pretty easily.

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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.
    I think the problem is with the way Field is worded, you still have to sacrifice 2 lands regardless. You can get blown out with this sacrifice trigger on the stack they can waste a dual or something and then you have to sac this to its own ability if I'm not mistaken if you don't have 2 other lands to sac
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

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  17. #17

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think the problem is with the way Field is worded, you still have to sacrifice 2 lands regardless. You can get blown out with this sacrifice trigger on the stack they can waste a dual or something and then you have to sac this to its own ability if I'm not mistaken if you don't have 2 other lands to sac
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  18. #18

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Lands aren't spells and don't have costs, it's a replacement effect, and Amulet of vigor will trigger on your Lotus Field's ETB (giving you one use before the sacrifice trigger).

    As for which one is better: Since both are unplayable outside a combo, the answer is "whichever one combos better with your cards"
    I used the term cost loosely to refer to the fact that actions had to be paid (saccing lands) prior to the card entering play. I think Lotus Field's effect is an etb, otherwise wouldnt it be worded like how they erratad cards like Lotus Vale, Mox Diamond and Scortched Ruins? ie.

    If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.
    which is moot since the amulet gives a trigger like you said. It can also be used for a landfall trigger, albeit costly, but its another way the card is functionally different than Vale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think the problem is with the way Field is worded, you still have to sacrifice 2 lands regardless. You can get blown out with this sacrifice trigger on the stack they can waste a dual or something and then you have to sac this to its own ability if I'm not mistaken if you don't have 2 other lands to sac
    Yeah it would sac to itself (like the original lotus) plus another land if you only had 2 lands in play I think, not saying it is a playable interaction, due to its 'all in' nature it probably is not worth it most of the time over any karoo, but it is something cant be done with the Vale. You could chain Primeval Titans if you wanted or something I dont know.

  19. #19

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I used the term cost loosely to refer to the fact that actions had to be paid (saccing lands) prior to the card entering play. I think Lotus Field's effect is an etb, otherwise wouldnt it be worded like how they erratad cards like Lotus Vale, Mox Diamond and Scortched Ruins? ie.
    Please don't. Te term cost has a very specific meaning in the game, and when talking about niche ways to break cards it's very important to use the terms correctly. Lotus Field is clearly an ETB because it says "When" and Mox Diamond, Lotus Value, and Scotch-guarded ruins are replacement effects because they say "If .. instead".
    Yeah it would sac to itself (like the original lotus) plus another land if you only had 2 lands in play I think, not saying it is a playable interaction, due to its 'all in' nature it probably is not worth it most of the time over any karoo, but it is something cant be done with the Vale. You could chain Primeval Titans if you wanted or something I dont know.
    Does "original lotus" here mean Lotus Vale? Because Lotus Vale can never be sacrificed to its own ability. If you're sacrificing lands, it's still in the process of entering the battlefield, and therefore isn't present on the battlefield to be sacked. Also, playing a land 'just happens'. No one can respond to it, so no one can respond to Lotus Vale's replacement effect by using wasteland. For example. Meanwhile Lotus Field, as a triggered ability, can be responded to.

  20. #20
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Does "original lotus" here mean Lotus Vale? Because Lotus Vale can never be sacrificed to its own ability. If you're sacrificing lands, it's still in the process of entering the battlefield, and therefore isn't present on the battlefield to be sacked. Also, playing a land 'just happens'. No one can respond to it, so no one can respond to Lotus Vale's replacement effect by using wasteland. For example. Meanwhile Lotus Field, as a triggered ability, can be responded to.
    He means Black Lotus. I.e. that in his "case" (that is, you control Amulet) Lotus Field is a Black Lotus that requires you to sacrifice itself (like Black Lotus), plus an additional land.
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