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Thread: reserved list crumbling?

  1. #21
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    no but i think field is actually an upgrade and makes legendary duals much more reasonable. which would also fit perfectly into some sort of commander masters
    Field is better in some situations and worse in others. Field can be forced to sacrifice it to itself and ETB tapped (slows down your curve), but it can sacrifice lands you've already used and also has hexproof.

    also shocks happened long ago, before they tightened the reserved iirc
    Shocks were printed in Ravnica block (2005-2006). The Reserved List was created in 1996 (after Chronicles annoyed collectors) and ended with Masques block, with the list finalized in 2002. Long before shocks.

    Shocks were designed as a way to reintroduce basic land-typed duals into Extended in a way that was functionally different enough to respect the Reserved List and also powered down enough to be fairer. They only promised no functional reprints or new cards that completely invalidate the old ones. They have printed other cards that are functionally similar but fit into a different niche (e.g. Hypergenesis vs Eureka, despite the fact that Hypergenesis was more competitively viable).

  2. #22
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Field is better in some situations and worse in others. Field can be forced to sacrifice it to itself and ETB tapped (slows down your curve), but it can sacrifice lands you've already used and also has hexproof.



    Shocks were printed in Ravnica block (2005-2006). The Reserved List was created in 1996 (after Chronicles annoyed collectors) and ended with Masques block, with the list finalized in 2002. Long before shocks.

    Shocks were designed as a way to reintroduce basic land-typed duals into Extended in a way that was functionally different enough to respect the Reserved List and also powered down enough to be fairer. They only promised no functional reprints or new cards that completely invalidate the old ones. They have printed other cards that are functionally similar but fit into a different niche (e.g. Hypergenesis vs Eureka, despite the fact that Hypergenesis was more competitively viable).
    I think he meant that shocks were created before the crack down on the reserve list loopholes. Like the FTV and duel deck foils
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  3. #23
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think he meant that shocks were created before the crack down on the reserve list loopholes. Like the FTV and duel deck foils
    I think the most recent Modern Masters set shows how Wizards wants to address the Reserved list. They are printing "fixed" versions of older cards that are made to fit into their Modern format. Just like the Field vs Vale example; look at all of the "fixed" cards they have release this set. It shows that they know what they are trying to accomplish and how they want to move forward.

    We also just received fetch-able slow cycling dual lands that no one really acknowledges. It is only a matter of time until a "fixed" dual comes out that is a little too aggressive and the reserved list criers will have their day.
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  4. #24

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    We also just received fetch-able slow cycling dual lands that no one really acknowledges. It is only a matter of time until a "fixed" dual comes out that is a little too aggressive and the reserved list criers will have their day.
    Because they're largely unplayable.

  5. #25

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    I think the most recent Modern Masters set shows how Wizards wants to address the Reserved list. They are printing "fixed" versions of older cards that are made to fit into their Modern format. Just like the Field vs Vale example; look at all of the "fixed" cards they have release this set. It shows that they know what they are trying to accomplish and how they want to move forward.

    We also just received fetch-able slow cycling dual lands that no one really acknowledges. It is only a matter of time until a "fixed" dual comes out that is a little too aggressive and the reserved list criers will have their day.
    I think they are way more likely to release commander specific duals (cipt unless your commander is in the command zone or something) than snow or legendary duals, that is the only market segment they care about that wants cheaper duals. It allows them to print something that is more or less equivalent where they care (commander) but still inferior to regular duals and useless outside of that specific format.

  6. #26

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I think they are way more likely to release commander specific duals (cipt unless your commander is in the command zone or something) than snow or legendary duals, that is the only market segment they care about that wants cheaper duals. It allows them to print something that is more or less equivalent where they care (commander) but still inferior to regular duals and useless outside of that specific format.
    They have no interest in making cheaper duals for commander. There is an overabbundance of passable dual lands that are cheap that they could put in the decks, but they don't. Instead we get the CIPT lands every single cycle, because "buy better lands" is an easy way to get people to spend money upgrading their deck.

  7. #27

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Theyre more likely to complete cycles than print new ones. Those duals from battlebond, I think, that checks for basics... theyre more likely to do enemy colour those duals than make something new, like if you have 4 snow permanents or something weird.

    I would love for duals to come down in price, but I doubt itd ever happen.

    Actually, Id really like to have a play set of workshops. But considering how I can barely afford my legacy deck as it is, I doubt Ill ever get to even see one!


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  8. #28

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    I would love for duals to come down in price, but I doubt itd ever happen.
    It depends on the time frame we're talking about, and I don't know what the future trend is, but duals have actually come down quite a bit since their high.

    They reached a high in June 2018 and since then:

    Badlands has gone from $254 in June 2018 to $194 today
    Bayou from $325 to $241
    Plateau from $143 to $111
    Savannah from $183 to $131
    Scrubland from $193 to $140
    Taiga from $168 to $139
    Tropical Island from $336 to $210
    Tundra from $327 to $273
    Underground Sea from $699 to $444
    Volcanic Island from $497 to $368

    Data from "low" prices on MTGStocks

  9. #29
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    i think this was mainly due to the mass speculation that was occurring around that time. cards did overall go up (it was kind of expected for USEA to be around 300-400) then it jumped to 600, and now it's back down somewhere in between.
    -rob

  10. #30

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    It's just a bit of spiking behaviour in an overall upwards trend, happens in all kinds of markets. But the long-term is that duals will keep on going up with the occasional price spike which you could do well out of if you time it right.

  11. #31
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    They reached a high in June 2018 and since then:
    The pro tour included legacy in August 2018 with team trio constructed, which likely had a significant impact on dual prices. Ironically that was also when Death's Shadow took off in popularity and allowed players to include copies of Watery Grave alongside Underground Sea.
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  12. #32

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    I'm glad someone made a thread about this because I've been tooting this horn for years:

    http://themanadrain.com/topic/1473/t...st-red-herring

    In a nutshell, the idea is this: blaming the Reserve List for access to Legacy and other formats is wrong. The Reserve List does not prevent WotC from printing cards that fulfill the same function as reserved cards. It ONLY prevents printing functionally identical cards. What prevents WotC from printing cards that could do a reasonable stand-in for dual lands (for example) is not the RL; it's the fact that such cards are probably a bad design.

    On the flip side, it means that if you want WotC to improve access to eternal formats, you advocate for cards that fill the same ROLE as Reserve List cards. Like Force of Negation or Lotus Field.

  13. #33

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    In a nutshell, the idea is this: blaming the Reserve List for access to Legacy and other formats is wrong.
    It's actually right because...
    The Reserve List does not prevent WotC from printing cards that fulfill the same function as reserved cards. It ONLY prevents printing functionally identical cards. What prevents WotC from printing cards that could do a reasonable stand-in for dual lands (for example) is not the RL; it's the fact that such cards are probably a bad design.
    A lot of cards with bad design are very playable. Essential, even.

  14. #34
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    I dont know if duals are bad design or the mana management in general. Indeed it never really made sense why they had basic landtypes, probably because it was a downside back then with all those color hosers.
    The main issue with landbases are fetches actually. On one hand they allow for less duals, on the other hand they render every nonbasictype dual useless. I wish theyd get banned. The interaction with Brainstorm is just icing on the poisoned cake.

    Either way WotC is unwilling to help legacy anyway and thats why i abandonded the competitive game years ago. Vote with your wallet.
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  15. #35

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    I genuinely hope fetches never get introduced on Arena. Then we'd have an eternal format with actually interesting color and design choices for manabases.

  16. #36
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    I genuinely hope fetches never get introduced on Arena. Then we'd have an eternal format with actually interesting color and design choices for manabases.
    I think there is a fair chance that they are at least looking at something like that, considering they have asked about alternatives.

    Keep in mind though, it would not be an "Eternal" format, it would be a non-rotating format, like Modern.
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  17. #37

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    I think you all are proving my point. That is to say, the Reprint Policy itself doesn't actually stop Wizards from printing cards that would broaden access into Legacy and Vintage; it's just that they are reluctant to do that because those formats include a heck of a lot of cards that are pretty badly designed. Or more charitably, they are Magic's "rough draft."

    Basic land types make a lot of sense and it's hard to imagine the game without them. The eternal formats we love are largely defined by Magic's rogue's gallery of worst mistakes. I totally agree that the original duals and invasion fetches were badly designed. You can see Richard's idea, that giving two colors was both an upside and a downside, but he just didn't understand how unbalanced those two sides were. And, like you all say, the mistakes did not stop there. Wasteland, Back to Basics, and buddies made a good argument for the OG dual lands having a downside... but instead of beefing up this side of the scale, they printed Invasion fetches and screwed it up. In this ecosystem, they are not willing to print cards that are as good as the OG duals. They'll come close, like the typed duals from Amonket, Return to Zendikar, and Ravnica, but they're not willing to reprint cards as universally useful as the broken originals.

    The big takeaway from this is that online personalities (who shall remain nameless) should not whine about the Reserve List all the time. It's not the problem. It can be printed around.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I think there is a fair chance that they are at least looking at something like that, considering they have asked about alternatives.

    Keep in mind though, it would not be an "Eternal" format, it would be a non-rotating format, like Modern.
    Well, there is always Frontier or whatever they're calling the new possible non-rotating replacement for Extended.

    In retrospect, the OG duals probably should have been more like the more tame modern counterparts. Fetchlands should have been Prismatic Vista and the Mirage fetches only. I think that would have not materially made eternal different but would allow them now to print better entry points into the format.

  18. #38

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Surely part of the joy of legacy is that you get to play with all the most broken and powerful old cards that you don't really get to play anywhere else?

    That's why I like it anyway.

  19. #39

    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    I think you all are proving my point. That is to say, the Reprint Policy itself doesn't actually stop Wizards from printing cards that would broaden access into Legacy and Vintage; it's just that they are reluctant to do that because those formats include a heck of a lot of cards that are pretty badly designed. Or more charitably, they are Magic's "rough draft."
    OK, and what are the consequences of this? If they don't want to print the next Tabernacle or whatever, the card you have to play is.... and that card is on the....

  20. #40
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    Re: reserved list crumbling?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    Like Force of Negation or Lotus Field.
    Ah, yes. Timmy could finally afford playing competitive Legacy decks, when they printed those cards. /sarcasm

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC
    I think you all are proving my point.
    You seem to be a case of "confirmation bias". XD

    So your argument is "It can be printed around.". Ok. Is design space unlimited? Would those new alternatives be strictly better? Would they be balanced? If not, your whole point is irrelevant and the Reserved List is a huge part of the problem.
    I riffle shuffle so hard. Bitch, my Tabernacle twitters #metoo.

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