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Thread: Dark Depth-Hogaak

  1. #41

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    steely resolve is a bad card, you can't give protection with sejirii steppe to avoid bloquers, and death and taxes will just flickerwisp that and karakas your dude.

    That what happened before in classic dark depth stuff, i didn't test the card in this particular version, but i don't think it is good enough

  2. #42
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    To begin, congratulations to you Adrien for defending your pack.

    Here it is:
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2089183#paper

    I have a question on your list, why do you keep blooming Marsh vs Bayou ?
    Budget restrictions ?

    Thanks for this thread, im following you since the beginning of this *story* and thank you to all that have tested the pack and share their thoughts.

  3. #43

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    I have a question on your list, why do you keep blooming Marsh vs Bayou ?
    Budget restrictions ?

    yeah that's mainly for budget restriction but it can also avoid some random submerge sometimes.

    My list wasn't published on mtgo while i 5-0 three times last week don't know.

    I need to build a better side though to beat lands miracle death and taxes and maverick, and somehow storm which are the three four majors concern of the deck

  4. #44

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    steely resolve is a bad card, you can't give protection with sejirii steppe to avoid bloquers, and death and taxes will just flickerwisp that and karakas your dude.

    That what happened before in classic dark depth stuff, i didn't test the card in this particular version, but i don't think it is good enough
    At least Hogaak has trample. Steely Resolve was a bad card previously because a Mother of Runes combined with a blocker could hold off Marit Lage forever if you couldn't Sejiri Steppe past it.

  5. #45

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    At least Hogaak has trample. Steely Resolve was a bad card previously because a Mother of Runes combined with a blocker could hold off Marit Lage forever if you couldn't Sejiri Steppe past it.
    yeah the card doesn't look terrible on paper, but when i tested the card though it was long time ago when miracle was there with top, it was not a good card, although I was playing library in my versions so miracle was entering his disenchant

    effects after side. It was bad. But I am open to hear about how your testing goes, I don't think I am gone test that. As far as I am concerned, I prefer playing spellbombs main, which are very good in a wide open meta,

    particularly against miracle shutting snappies effects is often damn good. Swords to plownshares can be often discarded, when they are not hidding them with bs, and spellbombs takes care of flashbacks effects.

    It is also good against temur (wrenn/goose), against ur (dreadhorde arcanist), against grixis control (snap), against lands, against maverick, against reanimator, against non tes storm.decks, ichorid, yeah mostly 2/3 of the format.

    Providing 2 for one effects, and a single bojuka bog is really not enough to fight those effects.

    The card spellbomb looks weird on paper, cause people are used to play their graveyard hate in side, but considering the current metagame, card is close to never dead (at least less than something like swords to plownshare in miracle),

    and provide card advantage/ or gamebreaking effects.

  6. #46

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Going to be streaming this in the challenge today. Not expecting anything spectacular, but it should be fun.

    twitch.tv/dnsolver
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
    -Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

  7. #47
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    Going to be streaming this in the challenge today. Not expecting anything spectacular, but it should be fun.

    twitch.tv/dnsolver
    Great run man.
    Thanks for the light you give to this deck.

    Any thoughts or changes on your list after the challenge ?

  8. #48

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Thoughts:

    First, wow this was fun. I expected to 1-3 drop so having fun with memes and great matchups and friendos in twitch chat was great. Gotta mention that.

    Literally any depths deck would have 7-0'd pr 6-1'd the swiss with my matchups. I think anyone here advocating for or against this deck should check out my VOD. Afaik I make no $ from people viewing it on twitch (so I don't think I have to say #sponsored) - check it out there. I believe the VOD should show that Hogaak occasionally did things, but nearly all the games and matches were won with Depths combo. From what I can remember:

    -Hogaak blocked a creature from attacking vs Mono Red Sneak Attack with weird creatures. This bought a turn for me to find Depths.
    -Hogaak technically killed a BR reanimator player in one game but he was probably dead anyway.
    -The 1/1s and Hogaak were edict insurance vs Grixis Control.
    -Hogaak won one game vs Red Stompy where they didn't have an Ensnaring Bridge.
    -Hogaak caused some players to board in grave hate or act scared of the graveyard.

    Notably, I did not encounter Karakas or Swords to Plowshares at all in the challenge, losing only to Red Stompy which I believe still remains a difficult matchup. Against decks with Karakas or Swords to Plowshares, I think I would much rather be playing my more typical BG or BUG turbo depths with access to maindeck Safekeepers.

    As is, I was playing 61 cards and I don't think a single card could be cut to make room for 4th Satyr Wayfinder, Safekeepers, another utility land, etc. Hard to make cuts or changes when you play matchups that are weak to Urborg-Depths-Hexmage or Urborg-Stage-Depths anyway.
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
    -Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

  9. #49
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Thanks for streaming. Yeah, I think this deck is well-positioned in the meta. Any variant of Depths just rolls a lot of these nonwhite decks running no maindeck answers to Marit Lage. A lot of my games ended within 4 turns with the opponent cantripping, failing to find anything useful, and conceding before I even make Marit Lage. The discard package, tutors and beatdown plan help add consistency.

    I agree with you that Hogaak is only useful sometimes, I often board out the 4th copy unless it's a really grindy matchup. Too often it's not relevant or I'm stuck with 2+ copies and only one is relevant (since it recurs and is legendary).

    This deck could also maindeck Safekeepers, maybe over Satyr Wayfinder. I have yet to see enough value in that card. Multiple MD Sylvan Library is much better for digging, so Satyr is primarily Hogaak fuel and we don't even use Hogaak at all some games.


    Quote Originally Posted by DNSolver View Post
    losing only to Red Stompy which I believe still remains a difficult matchup.
    Do you board in 4 Force of Vigor and anything else? Maybe our best plan is to aggressively discard/block their few threats. If they have lock pieces but no clock, they topdeck really badly, and you can always EOT Force a Blood Moon and Bridge then create Marit Lage, untap and win...

  10. #50

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Most of my matches, my side boarding started with -4 hogaak.

    I played abrupt decay and assassins trophy over force of vigor. My list will be posted tomorrow if you can't look through the vod.
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

    My Youtube and Twitch usernames are DNSolver.

    I am the Legacy metagame:

    -2016 Eternal Weekend Europe won by BR Reanimator (I wrote the primer)
    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
    -Refiner of Hogaak Depths.

  11. #51

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Yeah did some more little testing, I think satyr overall is a better card than stitchers. So I am gone try to cut the stitchers which doesn't give value usually contrary to satyr for more discards and tutors. Map comes to mind in my version cause I don't play mox and manabase is sometimes fragile. Sticthers allows for fast Hogaak but that's really random, while satyr always grap a land, and sometimes a cabal/hogaak and allows to go turn one cabal turn two satyr get a land flashback.

    Don't know if hogaak provides any value, it seems a bit slow in this version, especially against combo. Against non white decks, non strix decks ie most likely delver.decks he is good, but that's still not a huge proportion of the meta.

    Though, if you play Hogaak instead of needle you play basically classic.depth list with -4 needle +4 hogaak -4 scrying +4 satyr, you might gain some value against non karakas decks. Might be somethins to consider or not.

  12. #52
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    Yeah did some more little testing, I think satyr overall is a better card than stitchers. So I am gone try to cut the stitchers which doesn't give value usually contrary to satyr for more discards and tutors. Map comes to mind in my version cause I don't play mox and manabase is sometimes fragile. Sticthers allows for fast Hogaak but that's really random, while satyr always grap a land, and sometimes a cabal/hogaak and allows to go turn one cabal turn two satyr get a land flashback.

    Don't know if hogaak provides any value, it seems a bit slow in this version, especially against combo. Against non white decks, non strix decks ie most likely delver.decks he is good, but that's still not a huge proportion of the meta.

    Though, if you play Hogaak instead of needle you play basically classic.depth list with -4 needle +4 hogaak -4 scrying +4 satyr, you might gain some value against non karakas decks. Might be somethins to consider or not.
    Have you looked at Mulch? I understand the Satyr is there to serve as additional Edict insurance, but once you are committed to a 2-mana spell I think there are options that could possibly perform better. Mulch, and maybe Grisly Salvage, could possibly do some work. I like that Mulch gives you all land cards you see and I like that Salvage does land or creature at instant speed. Both fill the graveyard the way you want. Mulch doesn't put valuable lands in the graveyard, just spells, and Salvage lets you pick the best option in the top 5 instead of the top 4.
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Have you looked at Mulch? I understand the Satyr is there to serve as additional Edict insurance, but once you are committed to a 2-mana spell I think there are options that could possibly perform better. Mulch, and maybe Grisly Salvage, could possibly do some work. I like that Mulch gives you all land cards you see and I like that Salvage does land or creature at instant speed. Both fill the graveyard the way you want. Mulch doesn't put valuable lands in the graveyard, just spells, and Salvage lets you pick the best option in the top 5 instead of the top 4.
    I proposed them, too, but when think about it, I think Satyr's role is also to pay for Hogaak (Convoke).

  14. #54
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Yeah if Hogaak is the plan you need Satry just to cast it
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  15. #55

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    satyr is also cabal therapy food, so yeah satyr is waybetter than others options

  16. #56
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Of course, I should have seen that. I am going to try and catch DNSolver's league he ran, see how the deck runs.
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  17. #57
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    Don't know if hogaak provides any value, it seems a bit slow in this version, especially against combo. Against non white decks, non strix decks ie most likely delver.decks he is good, but that's still not a huge proportion of the meta.
    Sorry if I'm a bit confused on this - do you not think Hogaak provides value? Isn't that the point of this version? From DNSolver's stream, I am not sure I personally see the value of Hogaak - just the power of Depths Combo itself in current Meta?

  18. #58

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Sorry if I'm a bit confused on this - do you not think Hogaak provides value? Isn't that the point of this version? From DNSolver's stream, I am not sure I personally see the value of Hogaak - just the power of Depths Combo itself in current Meta?
    Didn't have enought testing, but it is really good against delver, which he played only once during his stream. Also you see the power of cabal therapy in this list which provide value and can be grapped with satyr.

    Looking at the top8 of mtgo challenge hogaak would have been gamebreaking against 3 out of 8 decks, the 3 delvers.

    But as said in previous post the weakest slot is stitcher which i just cutted for 3 expedition map and a 8ith discard, so basically it is a "classic depth list" with -4 sylvan scrying +4 satyr -4 needle +4 hogaak.

    So hogaak takes the the needle slot and satyr the scrying slot. Just have to figure out if it is better or not. You don't need to play those weak stitcher to cast hogaak consistently.

  19. #59
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Sorry if I'm a bit confused on this - do you not think Hogaak provides value? Isn't that the point of this version? From DNSolver's stream, I am not sure I personally see the value of Hogaak - just the power of Depths Combo itself in current Meta?
    In my testing I found some indirect value:

    1) Someone Cabal Therapyed me for Sylvan Scrying. Sorry, not playing that version! Fringe decks can cause misplays.

    2) In Plains matchups when Marit Lage eats StP, Hogaak holds off attackers until you make the 2nd or 3rd. Even Batterskull can't get through. Even if they have Mom, they will use her on defense instead of offense. Don't know if that's better than just playing protection for Marit Lage, but it has saved me some games.

    3) It helps you kill annoying planeswalkers due to trample, while other things can get chumped. But it's really bad against Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

    4) They board in grave hate while you board out some Hogaaks, let them lose harder.

    Most games I did not use Hogaak, I just won with Depths. Turbo Depths might be better in this meta.

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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    I think relying on opponents to be bad usually isn't the best strategy
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

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