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Thread: Dark Depth-Hogaak

  1. #21
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    jax tested the deck a bit and went 3 times 4-1 and one 0-2 and he feel that the deck is viable but might not be better than classic bug depth. So don't know might be a metagame deck if you expect lot of delver decks.
    How do your matchups differ from BUG depths? Better vs Delver, worse vs Grixis Control? What else?

  2. #22
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    yeah maybe a karakas in side, alos i tested a bit the grixis control matchup and strix is way more annoying for this deck than for classic depth, cause hoogak dies to them.

    so yeah i might have faced good matchups a lot aka the delver deck that this deck crushes.

    As said before i have only one week of testing, and i might have felt overconfidant about the deck because of the good results i had on mtgo on five leagues.

    jax tested the deck a bit and went 3 times 4-1 and one 0-2 and he feel that the deck is viable but might not be better than classic bug depth. So don't know might be a metagame deck if you expect lot of delver decks.
    Even if all you've done is pinpoint a good spot in the metagame to exploit, kudos on you. Having variations on a deck is handy in a format as wide as legacy.
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  3. #23

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    How do your matchups differ from BUG depths? Better vs Delver, worse vs Grixis Control? What else?
    Delver is "better", I don't think that its straight better, its just easier. Like the whole beatdown plan is crazy good vs Delver, Reclaimer can race Delver and Hogaak is just too much for them.

    I lost to Miracles, 2x BR Reanimator, Maverick and Lands.

    BR just had the nuts all the games, I dont think that it is a bad matchup, more like 50-50.
    Miracles was close, but I think we need something here.
    Maverick and Lands are just very hard matchups for all the variants and the games were pretty close.

    Delver and 3C/4C Control are the matchups that you completely crush with this deck. You have a fast clock, edict protection, dont really care about wastelands, hymn + surgical does very little to stop you.

    While I think that all the variants have a good matchups vs those decks, this one is just easy mode.

    I think the deck can be tuned a little bit and improved, its a fine (and fun) alternative to the slow version. Its not like it is the best deck ever, its just a deck that plays 4x Depths 4x Stage 4x Hexmage and obviously its good.

    I tried 2 Dread of Night in the sideboard vs DnT and it was really good in this version (usually its a really bad card). It wasnt enough vs Maverick tho.

    I played the mirror 3 times and the Hogaak part of the deck was really bad.

    You can probably include a Life From the Loam + Wasteland package but the space is tight.

  4. #24

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    So I think there's something here. I fired it up and was able to go 6-1 in the matches I played.

    I think there's a LOT of room for optimization here, but the general gist is solid. Elvish Reclaimer is surprisingly good.

    edit: Tight on time so I cant go deep on thoughts. I do think a playset of Verdant Catacombs is correct if nothing else. I'm not sure if Loam belongs or not yet; I'd like to try a playset to see how it goes.

  5. #25
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    I tested this a bit. It can be crazy explosive.

    I found the manabase shaky and got wrecked by multiple Wastelands. Without budget limits some Verdant Catacombs, Bayous, and 1 of each basic seem better than any copies of Blooming Marsh. Some Khalni Gardens and Peatbogs could be cut to make room. They're good utility but the numbers of each seem too high relative to the need for stable colored mana sources through disruption. Fetches seem really good with Hogaak and Reclaimer. Marsh ETB tapped at least once for me, which was once too many when Bayou is a card.

    Satyr Wayfinder felt like the weakest nonland slot, but maybe it pays off in grindy games to feed Hogaak. 2 mana just felt like a lot.

    I think Plains in general is a really bad matchup for this deck, like any Depths deck (StP, Terminus, Council's Judgment, Karakas), and unfortunately all those cards kill the Hogaak plan too! Both plans are weak to many of the same answers, which isn't great for a plan B. I just had to aggressively target those cards with discard/ Needle. UW control with Snapcasters and Brainstorm made that challenging, they could play around discard too easily. Got wrecked hard by Miracles. Other Uxx good stuff rolls over more. I wonder if there's something we can do to shore up the Plains matchup.

    I managed to 2-1 a D&T through Wastes, Ports and Thalia in all 3 games by next levelling them: baiting Wastelands only to respond with Crop Rotation, Force of Vigor on Vial & equipment midcombat to eat attackers, and responding to double Port with upkeep Elvish Reclaimer/Crop Rotation or just casting Hogaak for 0 mana. The matchup seems terrible overall, but maybe less bad than Tundra.

    I don't know if this deck needs SB anti-aggro cards. Other than T1 Delver, random 2/xs presented a slow clock. We also have chump blockers, 1-mana 3/4s, and free 8/8s. Even staring down hatebear beatdown I felt much more concerned about "can I combo off through disruption" than "will I die to these dorks" and wanted to board in anti-hate more than creature removal.

    Tech: avoid revealing Hogaak G1 if you can reasonably threaten Marit Lage. They don't board in grave hate, which makes Hogaak much better G2.

  6. #26
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    They are probably too bad, but are any of the following cards worth discussing for this deck?


    Grapple with the Past
    Grim Discovery
    Tilling Treefolk
    Stoic Builder
    Mulch
    Tracker's Instinct
    Commune with the Gods
    Gather the Pack
    Grisly Salvage


    Btw.: What happened to Winding Way? It's no longer in the deck, but still mentioned in the SB plans.

  7. #27

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Btw.: What happened to Winding Way? It's no longer in the deck, but still mentioned in the SB plans.
    in first list i tryed gathered the pack then finding way, but they have been cutted for more disruption and safekeeper joined the team.

    As said by previous players, swords and karakas are the main problem of the deck, so a playset of safekeepers and some needles in side might be able to make these matchup mannageable.

    Yeah more problematic matchups are lands, maverick, then miracle.

  8. #28
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Not of this World both Lage and Hogaak. It's maybe a too that can help against plows
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  9. #29

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    safekeeper is just a better card for this deck cause it has more synergie, help casting the hogaak you can even sac lands for delve and therapy flashback.

  10. #30

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    So I did some playtesting with my playtest group over the last day or so. Running a gauntlet of various stuff (trying to be as meta representative as possible).

    So far, in testing: 15-2; I think this is likely a fluke in terms of percentage, but does show there's some potential to be had here. Losses to maverick and elves (with them hitting a very quick combo both games).

    Changes I made:
    -2 Satyr Wayfinder
    -4 Blooming Marsh
    -2 Khalni Garden
    -1 Nuturing Peatland

    +2 Mox Diamond
    +4 Verdant Cataboms
    +1 Swamp
    +1 Forest
    +1 Bayou

    Main reasons being additional GY fuel (between diamond and fetches) for Hogaak and Elvish Reclaimer; faster starts, etc. Generally has been good; and Wayfinder tends to be too slow unless a REALLY grindy game.

    I still wish there was a good way to recur from the GY; but I'm not sure what that would look like besides loam; and I think that might be too slow. Will be the next thing I test, though.

  11. #31
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    I don't mean to be reductionist, but is this Hogaak inclusion just 'leveling up' on the previous Gurmag Angler/grindy plan? It was popular about 6 months ago. It's the whole 'divide and conquer' plan, kind of like Thopter/Sword/Depths in old extended: deal with Depths? Die to thopters. Deal with Thopters? Die to Marit lage.

    I think in this particular deck, Elvish Reclaimer will prove to be better than Deathrite Shaman, seriously. Lots of synergies with the land tutoring and the 3/4 body for the alternative beatdown plan seems very good. It's essentially mini-KotR.
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  12. #32

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I don't mean to be reductionist, but is this Hogaak inclusion just 'leveling up' on the previous Gurmag Angler/grindy plan? It was popular about 6 months ago. It's the whole 'divide and conquer' plan, kind of like Thopter/Sword/Depths in old extended: deal with Depths? Die to thopters. Deal with Thopters? Die to Marit lage.

    I think in this particular deck, Elvish Reclaimer will prove to be better than Deathrite Shaman, seriously. Lots of synergies with the land tutoring and the 3/4 body for the alternative beatdown plan seems very good. It's essentially mini-KotR.
    I dont think this is offbase at all. But it's much more explosive than the previous variants and can recur Hogaak as a secondary threat. The fact that him getting countered is a minor setback is a big deal to the grinding pattern.

    Still not sure how I feel overall, but generally favorable.

  13. #33

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    fauna shamn might be a card to test, i know it is slow but it might fetch stuff hogaak safekeeper stitcher vampire.

    It is a card i need to test

    yeah tested a bit that's too slow

  14. #34

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    I hope this isn't the wrong place to ask, but can any of you give me a link to the Depths discord? I know it exists, but the only link I could find online is a dead link.

    On a different note: how do you think this deck does against other combo decks such as Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and Storm?

    Very interested in this list and might try it at some paper weeklies soon.

  15. #35

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...iscord-Servers


    it is lands
    go to the depth section

  16. #36

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Much appreciated!

  17. #37
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Elvish Reclaimer is amazing and this deck uses it optimally for all sorts of value. Crop Rotations 5-infinity (you can transmute any 2 lands into Marit Lage), graveyard hate (Bojuka), protection (Sejiri), card draw (Peatland), LD (Wasteland), chump blockers (Garden), Hogaak fuel, or just beatdown. This card is a huge boon to Depths strategies.

    Quote Originally Posted by walked View Post
    Changes I made:
    -2 Satyr Wayfinder
    -4 Blooming Marsh
    -2 Khalni Garden
    -1 Nuturing Peatland

    +2 Mox Diamond
    +4 Verdant Cataboms
    +1 Swamp
    +1 Forest
    +1 Bayou
    I really like these changes. Consistent with my impressions testing the deck.

    Loam does seem slow. I really like the multiple Sylvan Library, getting you cards at fast tempo.

    Fauna Shaman seems too slow too.

  18. #38

    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Been testing this a bunch, and think it has a ton of potential.

    -1 Satyr (now down to a single copy)
    +1 Dryad Arbor


    ...has been a huge improvement for me. The ability to fetch a green creature with Verdant for convoke is really, really important.

  19. #39
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    More testing confirms this rolls over most blue decks (except UW control) and performs well against tier 1.5 and worse combo decks. The heavy disruption package + fast clock get it done. I've racked up a few turn 3 wins now backed by discard.

    I'm still skeptical about beating a good ANT/TES or BR Reanimator player, but we do have a lot of tools to help those matches.

    Very happy with the switch to Verdant Catacombs and friends. I don't miss the extra Khalni Gardens. The deck had too many ETB tapped monocolored lands before (6 total, plus colorless Stages, manaless Depths...). There were too many lands that don't produce either G or B the turn you play them. I've had to mull a lot of 2-land and 3-land hands due to lack of useable mana. A 5th fetch might be good too.

    Edit: While StP is a problem, the decks that run it also have slow clocks (especially with Force to kill equipment) so I find gaining 20-40 life actually buys us a lot of time to find more gas. Sylvan Library and the tutors play a big role here in rebuilding.
    Last edited by FTW; 07-14-2019 at 01:11 AM.

  20. #40
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    Re: DarkDepth-Hogaak

    Hogaak is an avatar, Marit Lage is an avatar. Name Avatar with Steely Resolve. Solve plows + Karakas issue.

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