Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Modern Post-Hogaak

  1. #1
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Modern Post-Hogaak

    Banned:
    Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
    Faithless Looting

    Unbanned:
    Stoneforge Mystic


    Hogaak everyone saw coming. Faithless Looting I'm a little sad about, despite not playing it in any of my favorite decks. I really hope they print a "fixed" version at 1 mana, but usually blue is the one to get any consistency generating toys. Stoneforge Mystic I'm happy that others are happy about, but I'm not looking forward to 90% consistency of hitting a 4/4 mostly uncounterable life link vigilance creature in any non-combo deck.

    Is this enough to fix the sour feelings from Hogaak Summer?

  2. #2
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    1,297

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    but I'm not looking forward to 90% consistency of hitting a 4/4 mostly uncounterable life link vigilance creature in any non-combo deck.
    Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull is stopped by the following commonly played cards (among many others):

    Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile/Fatal Push on SFM

    Spell Snare on SFM

    Pithing Needle on SFM

    Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapist/Duress on Batterskull

    Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek on SFM

    Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor/Shattering Spree on Batterskull

    And those are just answers at 0-1 mana. The card is strong but not broken. Batterskull is very inefficient hardcast or paying the full equip cost. All you have to do is stop the SFM activation.

  3. #3
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Yeah, I know the cards that can kill a 1/2. I play it in Vintage. I'm surprised that was the take away from my post, as the real format shake-up is mostly going to be no more Hogaak (which was obviously going to happen) and *many* decks getting hit by Faithless Looting Ban. Arclight Phoenix gets hit the hardest, but fringe decks that could have been much better post-Hogaak like Mardu Pyromancer get hit pretty hard by that as well.

    Also, I was ready to debut my crappy Crack the Earth + Dreadhorde Arcanist Modern list, but it gets hit pretty hard by the Faithless ban.

  4. #4
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    1,297

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    That format shakeup is obvious, didn't need commenting.

    I was just reacting to this "90% consistency of 4/4 lifelink" fearmongering. Batterskull is quite stoppable. Caw Blade terrorized Standard almost a decade ago, before so many better cards and strategies emerged in Modern. It's like saying "oh no Tarmogoyf is big".

  5. #5
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Dang, man, sorry to bring up the obvious "Hogaak and Faithless Looting are banned, how does the format change?" topic.

    I'm curious since it's so obvious to you, what are the new best decks? Are Arclight decks truly dead and gone, or can they recover while playing a slightly slower plan? Is dredge going to be fringe playable, or did they need the flashback Faithless? Can non-blue Pyromancer decks fuel their token generation enough to be worth playing without Faithless?

    Sorry if these are so obvious to not be worth discussing, but if you can enlighten me I'd appreciate it immensely.

  6. #6
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    1,297

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Of course they're worth discussing. I meant it's obvious those bannings shake up the format (and clearly Hogaak had to go). It's not obvious what the new format will be. That's a lot of speculation, and you didn't really leave any speculations or thoughts about it to start conversation (e.g. banning Faithless Looting will hurt Dredge and probably boost the position of blue decks) so there wasn't anything to add to that.

    The only real hook you left was this speculation that Batterskull will be this nearly uncounterable threat with 90% consistency. That statement was so extreme, can you not see how that would be worth discussing too? If you didn't want to discuss it, why say it? I still haven't heard you give any reasons supporting why it's remotely true.

  7. #7
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    I mean, the thread is literally titled Modern Post-Hogaak and I asked if the bans+unbans are enough to turn around the sour feelings from Hogaak Summer, there were plenty of potential avenues for discussion. Really I was hoping for an open ended discussion on the new meta and also to see how people feel about Modern now that the menace is gone. Are people excited/disappointed? Was it enough? Was banning Faithless too much?

    All I said about SFM was I'm not looking forward to a possible Batterskull-centric format, but I'm happy that other people like it, since it may bring more people into Modern as a direct result. I have no horse in this race, as I both own SFM already (I don't have to worry about getting them at price-spiked levels) and currently play a deck that runs essentially 6 Ensnaring Bridges (so they actually do nothing against me). My main reason for not liking it is I do think it homogenizes threat bases as the best 2cmc creature in the format. Midrange creatures aren't that scary in Modern pre-SFM, so I don't expect it to run rampant, I'm just against cards that don't really have drawbacks and narrow the field of choices for deck construction. I also think Sligh (used to be Zoo, but with all the new cards, mono red is the new zoo) decks are a good Litmus test for format health. If none exist, the format is either too combo-favored or too control-favored. If too many exist, the format is choked by fast-kill decks. Stoneforge Mystic in Legacy was the ultimate death of Zoo (well, technically Batterskull was, since people didn't play SFM much before BS got printed) because every blue deck now had something that absolutely crushed the zoo threats of the day. I'm not so much worried that Abzan decks get to use SFM, that's actually a very positive side of it, I'm just worried that blue now has easy ways to stall until they lock down the game with card advantage and counters.

    Anyway, to try to continue the conversation:

    Big losers:
    Mardu Pyromancer. That deck was awesome and I think well positioned to at least be solidly tier 2, but losing Faithless makes it a lot more difficult to put something like Smiting Helix and Lingering Souls in your yard. Young Pyromancer isn't nearly as good after losing the 1 mana cantrip.

    Hollow One. The deck was overshadowed big time by Hogaak, but it had a few notable runs pre-gaak. Without Faithless I think this deck is going to be one of the hardest to recover, even though technically it hasn't existed for a few months.

    Hogaak (duh)

    Fun brews like this one and more along these lines. Blue is once again the defacto card draw/quality engine in Modern.


    Decks that take damage but still will be threats:
    Mono red Prowess (any Arclight mono red just turns into this with few changes)
    Izzet Phoenix (Thing in the Ice + Aria of Flame as game plan is still good, or Izzet Charm might just slot in for a slightly slower version)
    Dredge (This deck got hit pretty hard, as flashback Faithless made midgame so much better... but now that graveyard hate will drop, this deck will still be a fringe contender)

    My pick for top deck in format:
    UW control (I thought it would be the best post-Modern-Horizons, but Hogaak caught me/everyone by surprise. With the slow down from Faithless getting banned, I see it as the big winner. It's really a monster in terms of power level with T3feri and Narset. The board clogging walkers typically will give them enough time to hit the mana they need to never let you cast another spell.)

    Notable mention to Urza, which now gets SFM to hunt up either batterskull or Sword of the Meek. Seems like a pretty good card to play for them, I will be trying it out in that deck first as another win con.

  8. #8
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    I have a few predictions, but take them with a grain of salt.

    1) Izzet phoenix survives and plays a full set of Izzet Charm. Its not as efficient, but it discards phoenixes. It was never a truly fast deck anyways, more rooted in inevitability. Deck will be worse, but not dead.

    2) Dredge isn't dead, but it will go into hibernation. I don't think it can handle a looting ban without either new tech or going the stitcher's supplier/satyr wayfinder route. This means Stinkweed imp and golgari thug are neccessary again, and maybe life from the loam. Its slower though, and that gives time for slower grave hate to catch it.

    3) Tier 1 decks will be: Urza variants, humans, deaths shadow, tron variants, jund, hardened scales, and burn. Uw control will suffer due to the unsettled nature of the format for a little while and then get back into contention. Jund seems really well placed after the shakeup; good stuff stacks always are. Ditto with burn.

    4) Stoneforge will become a staple of the format, but I don't know which variant will become the best option. I like the jeskai approach but Abzan could become a contender with lingering souls. I also like Stoneforge in Bant Spirits.

    Thats all for now. Thanks for starting the thread, I look forward to some great discussion.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  9. #9

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    4) Stoneforge will become a staple of the format, but I don't know which variant will become the best option. I like the jeskai approach but Abzan could become a contender with lingering souls. I also like Stoneforge in Bant Spirits.
    Stoneforge Mystic doesn't seem like a good fit in Bant Spirits. Bant Spirits is an aggro deck, and Stoneforge is absolutely not an aggro card. Maybe if it were a Spirit it could work, but even that synergy is lost.

  10. #10
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Stoneforge Mystic doesn't seem like a good fit in Bant Spirits. Bant Spirits is an aggro deck, and Stoneforge is absolutely not an aggro card. Maybe if it were a Spirit it could work, but even that synergy is lost.
    I'm not convinced. It's an easy 4-5 slots to include, especially in a vial deck. Lots of flyers for equips. Honestly it will have a hard time with opposing SFM/Batterskull. It will either have to play the package itself or figure out a way to deal with it.

    The premiere agro decks of the format are now Humans and Burn. Both get significantly better without Hogaak holding them down. Jund and Tron will be prevalent. Some sort of UR-Thing in the Ice variant will come about, maybe a Blue Moon mashup. Storm will be tried again; I'm not sure how good Twiddle Storm is, but it seems to be gaining momentum.

    I think the biggest winners of the recent ban announcement are artifact decks: Hardened Scales, Urza/Thopters, and maybe even a traditional Affinity deck crops up again. You could do a lot worse than Stoneforge into Cranial Plating, equip Etched Champion. Traditional affinity is one of the more consistent ways of getting 2 mana on turn 1.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  11. #11
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Shaheen Soorani has a decent article up about mystic, even advocates for sfm package in vial aggro decks.

    http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ouncement.html
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  12. #12
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    What are some cards that get better without Looting/Hogaak, along with adding stoneforge mystic? I'm not talking Batterskull, etc, but rather the slower mid-range cards that fell out of favor because the format was just too fast for them. I've been trying to come up with some cards that will become better because there is time within the games to utilize them again.

    Remand
    Electrolyze
    Lightning Helix
    Kolaghan's Command
    Collective Brutality
    Search for Azcanta
    Restoration Angel
    Grim Flayer
    Izzet Staticaster
    Grim Lavamancer


    Do these cards, or type of cards really, get better now that the format has gotten a little more mid-range oriented?
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  13. #13
    GrimGrin and Glissa are in a boat...

    Join Date

    Jan 2013
    Location

    French Riviera
    Posts

    708

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Perahps a little bit offtopic, but i'm already bored looking at Modo streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell, battling vs other streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell :) And that doesn't make me drool over playing modern more right now than before in hoogak dark summer!

  14. #14
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What are some cards that get better without Looting/Hogaak, along with adding stoneforge mystic? I'm not talking Batterskull, etc, but rather the slower mid-range cards that fell out of favor because the format was just too fast for them. I've been trying to come up with some cards that will become better because there is time within the games to utilize them again.

    Remand
    Electrolyze
    Lightning Helix
    Kolaghan's Command
    Collective Brutality
    Search for Azcanta
    Restoration Angel
    Grim Flayer
    Izzet Staticaster
    Grim Lavamancer


    Do these cards, or type of cards really, get better now that the format has gotten a little more mid-range oriented?
    From what I've seen, mono red is still quite popular, so Collective Brutality is in a great place. Electrolyze might just be too slow, but I suppose with everyone trying to fit Stoneforge in their decks (sometimes with stepmom) it's probably okay in the really slow control lists. K Command is going to be great for a while, especially with the popularity of Karn and Urza. I think that card is in the best place it's ever been.

    A few other winners:
    Liliana of the Veil. Holy crap was she bad in Hogaak meta, but with the emergence of midrange she's much better. Still bad against W6 but used *with* W6 she's insane.
    Collector Ouphe. Artifacts are out in force and if you're not playing with them you should be running at least 3 in your 75 (if you're green).
    Plague Engineer. Great card in general, but with everyone trying to run Lingering Souls for equipment shells it's even better.
    Torpor Orb. Sideboard it's pretty good against Urza and a fair number of creature decks. I wouldn't play it just against Stoneforge but depending on what else they're doing it might be worth it (kinda wrecks humans, too).



    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Perahps a little bit offtopic, but i'm already bored looking at Modo streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell, battling vs other streamers trying to find the right stoneforge mystic shell :) And that doesn't make me drool over playing modern more right now than before in hoogak dark summer!
    I feel ya here, it's been pretty bad this first week. I expect it to die down after a few top contenders emerge and hype dies down. The format actually looks pretty healthy despite what the streamers are doing.

  15. #15

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Really wish they'd hit Mox Opal and Ancient Stirrings along with Looting.

    I think Tron (either blue or green) will be super tier 1, unless Urza/whir prison turns out to be broken AF. Either way the format is still going to have one uber deck that's super hard to hate out and a bunch of also rans.

  16. #16
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Really wish they'd hit Mox Opal and Ancient Stirrings along with Looting.

    I think Tron (either blue or green) will be super tier 1, unless Urza/whir prison turns out to be broken AF. Either way the format is still going to have one uber deck that's super hard to hate out and a bunch of also rans.
    Both of those decks are very susceptible to artifact hate. If one of those 2 is the top deck then it will take some sideboard consideration but I don't see the format being that terrible.

  17. #17
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Looks like UW Stoneblade is an early front-runner for SFM deck of choice; I've seen several 5-0 online league finishes with that setup and a lot of UW control lists re-forming their deck around it. Looks like after the weekend Dredge is still kicking, going back to the traditional tools of Thug/Imp + Shriekhorn. Neonate slotted right into the Looting space. No real surprise there with folks dropping their grave hate.

    MCQ on 9/2/19: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22954&f=MO

    At the SCG Open there was an interesting top 8 as well, with some innovation in a RB mid-range Arcanist deck. Top 16 had a BW smallpox deck show up as well, incorporating SFM into it's threat package. It seems like UWx Stoneblade was represented in the top 16, but not in the top 8: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22942&f=MO
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  18. #18
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    North Central CA
    Posts

    2,370

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Also, important to note that burn did really well but that may have been for two reasons. Texas is known for being very burn-centric, for whatever reason, and it preys on non-optimized decks, which we're likely to see a lot of the first week of the new meta. I expect it will drop off, but even if its relative position doesn't drop, it is a deck that can be sideboarded for.

    The rackdos deck in the top 8 is awesome, and I'm really excited to see a smallpox deck that isn't 8-rack style doing well. Based on that tournament, it looks like it'll take a while for the top decks to shake out.

  19. #19
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Also, important to note that burn did really well but that may have been for two reasons. Texas is known for being very burn-centric, for whatever reason, and it preys on non-optimized decks, which we're likely to see a lot of the first week of the new meta. I expect it will drop off, but even if its relative position doesn't drop, it is a deck that can be sideboarded for.
    I agree, burn is a natural predator to people bringing untested brews. I think it's relative position won't change too much until something solidifies into a predator against burn. As I'm certain you are aware, Batterskull doesn't make burn unplayable.

    The rackdos deck in the top 8 is awesome, and I'm really excited to see a smallpox deck that isn't 8-rack style doing well. Based on that tournament, it looks like it'll take a while for the top decks to shake out.
    The Rakdos list highlights a new and powerful card that isn't seeing nearly enough play in modern (likely due to the prevalence of Lightning Bolt and Fatal Push): Dreadhorde Arcanist. I don't think it will take long before it a Grixis list shows up, just for how strong flashing back cantrips can be. With KCommand being so well placed I predict RBx will be decent for a while.

    The smallpox deck was a pleasant surprise, for sure. I have seen some tinkering with BW Stoneblade, but Smallpox in a deck with only SFM and Bloodghast for creatures, along with a naturally powerful Pox-oriented card like Lingering Souls, makes for a really cool setup. If Lingering Souls starts showing up again in significant numbers, along with Elves or Druid Combo, I want to keep my Electrolyze's handy. The new Ranger with Unearth could be very good as well. Smallpox depletes your own resources but Unearth is so efficient at regaining tempo. Discarding a SFM/Ranger to Smallpox, then getting either back for just B is backbreaking, good against fair and unfair decks alike.

    One card that I'm really surprised isn't showing up more: Unearth. This turns small creature strategies into a tight card advantage engine that is really efficient. If I were putting together a RB midrange deck I would want some number of this card in my 75, probably at least 2. The value of Seasoned Pyromancer and Arcanist seems so good! Fulminator Mage and Skelemental are both disruptive threats that naturally pair with Unearth as well. It will be fun to see where this goes.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  20. #20
    Member
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,115

    Re: Modern Post-Hogaak

    I'm pretty sure we have enough faeries to make a mono-blue faeries deck be decent. I really like the value that is being crammed into the Adventure cards.



    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)