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Thread: UW Sagas

  1. #21
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Parallax Tide has synergies with...

    Estrid's Invocation: Keep the original Tide on full counters. Copy it with Estrid. Exile up to 5 lands with the copy. On the upkeep when Estrid will fade away, stack the upkeep triggers with Estrid on top. Blink Estrid first (lands return) and have it return copying Parallax Tide. Exile 5 lands again. This basically keeps 5 lands off the board for 5 turns (until the original Tide is gone). Even better if you get a 2nd Estrid involved.

    Riptide Chimera: Exile up to 5 lands. On your upkeep, both triggers go on the stack. Bounce Parallax first. The lands return, but then you can replay Parallax and remove the lands again. Unfortunately this costs 2UU every turn so it's awkward.

    Auratog/Phantatog/Seal of Cleansing: Stack 5 exile abilities. In response, sacrifice Parallax Tide to the Atog. Lands are exiled permanently. The "Oblivion Ring" trick works with this old templating.

    Propaganda/Sphere of Safety: Opponent can't attack you if they can't generate 2 mana on main phase.

    Chalice/Spheres: Opponent has a hard time beating resistors without lands

    Replenish: Reuse Parallax enchantments like the old Standard deck

    3cc Teferi: Completes the soft lock by stopping instant tricks in the window between. -3 to reset a Parallax on 0 counters.

    This deck could really break Parallax Tide. Parallax Wave is decent too, maybe 4 Tide + 2 Wave main?

  2. #22

    Re: UW Sagas

    We talked a bit about Opal-Wave a moment ago, here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l-GW-Opal-Wave
    But that was before Estrid's Invocation. Maybe there is something here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    The only glass cannon here is the pilot.
    I play decks with a lot of white enchantments, and white isn't even my favorite color.

  3. #23
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    We talked a bit about Opal-Wave a moment ago, here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l-GW-Opal-Wave
    But that was before Estrid's Invocation. Maybe there is something here.
    Does Opal-Wave work again? When it was in Standard, they power-errata'd it hard so you needed 2 Waves

    That deck is interesting but seems like an underpowered version of Enchantress. What about a UW stompy shell with both Parallaxes and Estrid's Invocation? Blue also gives the UW Teferi to complete the lock. Dual-colored stompy is also easier now with Prismatic Vista to help fix basics.

    LOL Parallax Tide even has a back-up function to save your City of Traitors before you play a land.



    //Lands: 20
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Prismatic Vista
    2 Tundra
    2 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Serra's Sanctum

    //Artifacts: 11
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere

    //Enchantments: 25
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Spreading Seas
    4 Estrid's Invocation
    3 Oblivion Ring
    2 Propaganda
    4 Parallax Tide
    3 Parallax Wave
    3 Opalescence
    2 Trial of Knowledge

    //Planeswalkers: 2
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    //Spells: 2
    2 Replenish

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Eidolon of Rhetoric
    4 Rest in Peace
    2 Helm of Obedience
    2 Ghostly Prison
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Phyrexian Revoker


    Probably too durdly and inconsistent. The one nice thing about the GW version is the early draw engine in Enchantress' Presence and Sylvan Library.

    Some cute interactions:
    Spreading Seas - draws cards with Estrid blink. can be used on yourself to avoid Ancient Tomb/City suicide. You can keep the original on your own land, put the Estrid copy on theirs, and then blink Estrid off it when you're ready to Tide away lands.

    Seal + Parallax = exile 5 things permanently

    Opal + Wave = permanently exile creatures at will

    Opal + Wave + Tide = permanently exile creatures and lands at will, aka Win the Game

    Trial + Estrid = draw many cards

    Tide + Estrid = landlock opponent for many turns

    Teferi + Tide + Estrid = Opponent cannot play Magic. Exile 5 lands looping the Tide copy. Opponent can't cast spells in between. Use Teferi to bounce and replay the original Tide to save it from fading.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-11-2019 at 08:33 PM.

  4. #24

    Re: UW Sagas

    I liked the look of the GW-wave deck in the youtube videos that were posted, that deck made very good use of Kruphix's Insight.
    That deck felt much more like a combo deck that was trying to ramp up with Wild Growth/Serra's Sanctum, not a control/prison deck, because with the combo online it's near-impossible for fair decks to beat the pairing of Opal/Wave.
    It also randomly hoses some of the combo decks like SNT and Depths.
    I'm sceptical that Parallax Tide is a playable card in legacy though because 4 mana is a lot for something that doesn't win the game or do anything when you're behind on the board. At least by itself PWave can keep a Dreadhorde Arcanist exiled for a few turns while you try to dig for Opalescence.

    I think the GW opalwave version has the problem that you are a dog to combo (especially reanimator and storm) but it can probably be tuned to be a kind of 'fair deck killer'. Relying on the combo of x2 4-drops to help stabilize against Delver is always going to be suspect though, even if you do have stuff like Serra's Sanctum or Replenish or Carpet of Flowers to try and power through disruption.

    This UW Opal with chalice and stuff has the problem that you are just a stompy shell with the typical near-zero library manipulation but all of your threats are weird multi-card pairings rather than stuff that's high-impact on its own like Chandra or Rabblemaster etc.

  5. #25

    Re: UW Sagas

    Bump
    Some more testing:
    I think the Enlightened Tutors need to be moved to the SB, as the card disadvantage is probably too much of a liability vs fair decks
    At least 2 Porphyry Nodes in the main seems correct

    So from the list on the first page
    -1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
    -1 Council's Judgment
    +2 Porphyry Nodes
    -2 Enlightened Tutor
    +2 Something

    A third nodes is possible.
    Other options would be some kind of Predict-esque enchantment for the Replenish synergy but there aren't great options available.
    Font of Fortunes is 'fine' but costs a lot of mana, Ior Ruin Expedition is similar and probably slightly worse. Compulsion is an interesting way to churn through the deck but again costs a lot of mana. A 2nd Dovin's Acuity doesn't seem awful either. That card has impressed me a lot and has much better synergy with Estrids Invocation than these 2-cmc options.

    I am unsure if I want to add a 2nd Cast Out or cut the first one. Without maindeck ETutor you lose the utility of being able to Tutor for a cmc4 for CB but it gives a nice kicker for Replenish for little opportunity cost.

    Edit: maybe the extra card advantage slot can be 1 Azcanta. It doesn't combo with Invocation or B2B but otherwise it seems ok.
    It can set up Replenish by milling enchantments into the graveyard and if it flips and they waste it you can still Replenish it back
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 10-07-2019 at 01:16 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Is Deafening Silence worth building around? You have so much card advantage with the Sagas that it seems very powerful, and a way to slow the game down (in most matchups) so your inevitability can take over.
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  7. #27

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Is Deafening Silence worth building around? You have so much card advantage with the Sagas that it seems very powerful, and a way to slow the game down (in most matchups) so your inevitability can take over.
    In most matchups I don't think it slows the game down in a meaningful way (or at least in such a way that it doesn't compensate for the card you spent on it).
    Like any player can just go turn 1 delver turn 2 ponder leave up pierce mana or turn 2 tarmo with daze backup and not be affected by this at all, it just doesn't do enough against fair decks.
    You can get CA from the sagas but you have to survive first and I don't think this helps enough.

  8. #28
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Yeah, I thought it was just like Canonist where it was only one non-artifact spell. It's worse than useless in most cases due to it being non-creature. Decks can now drop their dudes and still have Force/Daze/Pierce up for your removal spell because you can only cast one. Sideboard card only.
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  9. #29
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Azcanta seems like a good choice for that last slot. Even if it doesn't "combo" with your other pieces, it helps compensate for the loss of card selection by cutting tutors.

  10. #30

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Yeah, I thought it was just like Canonist where it was only one non-artifact spell. It's worse than useless in most cases due to it being non-creature. Decks can now drop their dudes and still have Force/Daze/Pierce up for your removal spell because you can only cast one. Sideboard card only.
    Canonist might still be better anyway because tutor can still find it and it can also attack
    Depends how many hate pieces I have room for I guess

    Edit: Some more testing yesterday, a few games against my friend's blue-soup 4c control deck

    Was ok/competitive
    I played with the suggestions mentioned above (3 Porphyry Nodes and 1 Azcanta)
    Sometimes it felt like it was drawing too much removal but that's probably just the nature of the matchup we were playing, this deck with 4 Plow and 3 Nodes shouldn't really be any different to Miracles in that regard with 4 Plow and 3-4 Terminus and you probably want to max out on all of that to beat Delver decks.

    I went off with the 3rd stage of Mirari's Conjecture as well and chained like 5 cantrips in 1 turn.

    The Azcanta seems like a really good choice.

    I think I like most of the deck:
    20 Lands
    UW Core (Brainstorm Ponder FOW Plow)
    4 History 4 Spreading Seas 3 Invocation 1 Acuity
    2 cb
    1 Azcanta 1 Mirari 1 Dsphere
    2 Replenish
    And then at least 2 nodes is probably correct.

    So the remaining 3 questionable slots are the 3rd nodes, the cast out, and the soothsaying.

    I'm tempted to keep the 3rd Nodes for now until I can test the Delver matchup more.
    The Soothsaying seems so 'free' to play but maybe it's just a bad card or at least not good enough to spend 1 card on.
    Cast Out still seems pretty borderline/underwhelming and maybe it should be a Font of Fortune or something else (2nd Azcanta maybe, or CJ or a 3rd CB, or maybe just a Preordain).
    Will start mapping out the SB soon, need to narrow down which tutor bullets I want to play.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 10-09-2019 at 12:12 AM.

  11. #31

    Re: UW Sagas

    update:

    List is now
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Porphyry Nodes
    4 Spreading Seas
    2 Font of Fortunes
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Search for Azcanta
    4 History of Benalia
    3 Estrid's Invocation
    1 Dovin's Acuity
    1 Detention Sphere
    2 Replenish
    4 Force of Will
    1 The Mirari Conjecture
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Tundra
    5 Plains
    5 Island

    Sideboard
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Humility
    1 Dawn of Hope
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Ethersworn Canonist / Deafening Silence / Anti-Combo tutor target
    6 Flusterstorm/Hydroblast/Veto/Surgical/Force of Negation/Cpriest

    Thoughts:
    I cut Soothsaying because it seemed like if I was going to spend that much mana on it I would rather spend the mana into Font of Fortunes and just draw the cards. Having to spend 3 mana to look at 3 rather than 1 like with Top is a big difference. Soothsaying is probably better in the super lategame (especially with CB) but this is more of a tap-out deck (lack of Snapcasters etc) so it's less likely the deck will have mana open anyway. Font of Fortune is also a better Replenish enabler than Soothsaying

    For the SB I think thats probably about the maximum deck can afford to get away with in terms of tutor targets.

    Other Miracles/UW decks are already playing 6-7 cheap counters in the SB (with Snapcasters main to go with them) and they usually have Pierce main as well, in combo matchups I am hoping that Enlightened Tutor can do some of the work but against decks like Delver it's probably too punishing to try to resolve E-tutor, and necessary to have cards like Hydroblast, Fluster to fight over early Wrenns and Stifles and such.

    I think the best generic anti-combo tutor option is Canonist. You can turn 1 tutor turn 2 canonist which stops storm from winning until they get rid of it, makes your counters much stronger against SNT, hinders the opponent's ability to cantrip out of it, and puts 2 power on the board

    - Deafening Silence is similar but I think the fact that canonist can attack is too much of an upside. Being an enchantment is not exciting because you can't Replenish it back if they kill it the turn they go off and it doesn't do anything if you copy it
    - Zur's Weirding is a super spicy option but for it to be lights out you need to have a better board and a better hand, in which case you're probably already winning anyway. (If you cast it on an even board then you end up in this weird cat-and-mouse game which might not favour you because your deck isn't very threat-dense, and even if you have some Knights it effectively says to your opponent "try to win right now" so you still need a way to stop them from doing that in case they have it. E.g. they had the combo in hand already but didn't go for it yet because they were looking for Duress/Boseiju).
    - Trinisphere and Aegis of the Gods aren't good against SNT,
    - CPriest isn't tutorable and does nothing vs Storm.
    - Spirit of the Labyrinth and In the Eye of Chaos are out because the effect is symmetrical.
    - Decree of Silence is powerful but costs too much mana.
    - Induced Amnesia is interesting as a way to disrupt the opponent's hand, and you can also use it on yourself to sculpt your hand, and it gets copied with Invocation to burn through their (or your) library, but is probably too low-impact without any Leovold-effect. (and is super punishing if you use it on your opponent and then they Pyroblast it).
    - Nevermore is interesting because you have ways to copy it which lets you cover multiple angles, but it costs more mana than Canonist (like most options) and Nevermore doesn't disrupt the opponent's cantripping to answer it (or they're playing a deck like SNS and you name the wrong one out of show/sneak).
    - Solitary Confinement is hard (but possible) to maintain and does nothing against SNT
    - Lilting Refrain has no immediate impact and takes a while to build up to a point where it's hard to play around
    - Standstill might not favour you on an empty board
    - Lunar Force (and the 2-mana one, I forget the name), fun with Replenish but too easy to play around
    - Dovescape might not favour you on an empty board, just as easy to cast Decree of Silence

    idk if there's something spicy I'm missing but I think I've considered most of the options
    It's also possible that Cage/Counterbalance/Humility already gives you coverage vs every combo deck and it's just an unnecessary slot

    Edit: maybe the white 1/4 Eidolon is alright because it still gives you a clock (even if it's only 1 power) and it's better against Bomberman/Mystic Forge. (This reminds me that I didn't include Stony Silence but maybe there's no room for it)
    Copying the canonist effect with Invocation isn't irrelevant actually because (in the case of Eidolon) it gives you another attacker and even if the effect doesn't stack it still means they need to find e.g. a 2nd Decay

  12. #32
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    Re: UW Sagas

    That looks a lot more interactive and better at playing the control game. How does it perform in testing?

  13. #33

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    That looks a lot more interactive and better at playing the control game. How does it perform in testing?
    It's pretty good actually, I'm thinking of playing it at a big tournament at the start of November

    I think in the maindeck the only changes I would consider are swapping the Azcanta/Font/CB for spell pierce or Force of Negation. There are some Jeskai Mentor or UW Helm decks that have more counterspells (instants) main and counterbalance in the SB so I'm wondering what the best choice is. I think having CB main is pretty good in this list in particular, because against fair decks it can be Replenished back if they counter or decay it, but having more options to fight e.g. early Wrenns is also important

    From there it's just a question of figuring out what to put in the SB like what I outlined in the last post
    Curse of Exhaustion doesn't seem terrible actually because storm can't decay it and being 1-sided means a lot against SNT but maybe it's too slow

  14. #34

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    //List
    Pretty good.
    The way I see it, there are still some weak/cute cards (Font of Fortunes, Mirari Conjecture...) but this looks much better already.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I think in the maindeck the only changes I would consider are swapping the Azcanta/Font/CB for spell pierce or Force of Negation
    I don't know about that. Don't you think it will dilute your gameplan? As you said, you're more a tape-out control deck.

    Also, could you do a video/repport?
    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    The only glass cannon here is the pilot.
    I play decks with a lot of white enchantments, and white isn't even my favorite color.

  15. #35

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    Pretty good.
    The way I see it, there are still some weak/cute cards (Font of Fortunes, Mirari Conjecture...) but this looks much better already.

    I don't know about that. Don't you think it will dilute your gameplan? As you said, you're more a tape-out control deck.

    Also, could you do a video/repport?
    Yup there are some weaker cards but they are necessary to enable the 'combos', hopefully it balances out in the end.
    It does dilute the core tapout/enchantment gameplan to play things like pierce but if I win more by playing those instants then I should do that :P Still unsure what the best config is

    I won't be able to e.g. record a league on mtgo but if I do play the deck in a paper tournament I will do a video decktech / report.

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