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Thread: New Format announced - Pioneer

  1. #41
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I have said for years that fetchland should get axed. It's why Brainstorm is good, it violates the concept of the color pie and makes everything. I think Pioneer has a good chance of succeeding because it doesn't have fetchland in it. If it did, I would have glanced over it.
    We've done this for years here though. I don't disagree with the fact that fetches, when fetchable duals exist, are essentially optimal. I don't disagree with the fact that fetches reduce diversity. I don't disagree that fetches make some cards vastly better (Brainstorm, Delve spells).

    I just disagree that these are things that should be acted upon with bans in Legacy.

    Now, this Pioneer format, I do agree that if it had fetches, it would be sort of "worthless" right out of the gate, to me. Any format really worth playing (to me) needs an evident sort of Aristotelian "Final Cause." This is why Standard, and to some extent Modern, hold no interest to me. Because Modern's is just a shadow of Legacy and Standard's is just arbitrary "newness," in my opinion.

    Consider how the casual formats of Middle School and PreModern have the same card pool, that is, we could say the same "material cause" but via the very different ban lists, have divergent "final causes" in how they actually play out.

    Now, the question of if this format is actually interesting to play, well, I have no idea. And there is almost no chance I actually play it. But it at least is interesting to me in the intellectual sense.
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  2. #42

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, maybe? I don't know, it's hard to say if anyone really wants that.

    I mean, I'm sure Wizards does, so how hard to do they push it? Then again, most "Pro" Magic player do not like Legacy, so maybe they do want this to be the case.

    But I don't think that is necessarily bad for Legacy. "Official support" is not "saving" us. We either save our format, or let it die.
    I have my own opinions about that. I think in a format as deep as Legacy, the playing field levels dramatically. Whether people want to believe Legacy is solved or not doesn't matter - most people have their favorite deck and know it well. Some, extremely well. Because the power level of cards in Legacy is intrinsically much higher than its contemporaries, I believe this handicaps skill as a tool for "pro" players to lean on because of the wide variety of curve balls that exist in Legacy. This is why I love the format more than any other: you're not playing in a format with a rotating card pool and shipping cards for peanuts when they're illegal to play.

    I'm not saying there aren't skilled players that are on the "Pro" Tour that can't play Legacy. What I'm saying is that there are so many variables that exist in the format that continuity of cashing or Top 8'ing is so much harder because of the nature of the format, and I don't think they like that. That in turn sort of drifts the "support cloud" away from the format - not because of cost - but because they don't see a way to gain any competitive edge with longevity or continuity.

  3. #43

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Well in the UK Legacy GPs are so rare it makes little difference anyway.

    But from a player perspective, each format offers something different but Modern and Standard are much more linear. An additional linear format would seem to me to only serve to replace one of the other linear formats and since Standard rotates it would make Modern the more likely one to go out of vogue. Legacy is totally different to Modern and attracts different players who won't play Pioneer either.
    You have no info about Pioneer at all, the format was announced 2 days ago and we have no tournament results, idk how you can claim anything about what the format is going to be like. If you were instead trying to imply that legacy attracts nostalgic boomer-esque complainers who reject any format where you can't play old border cards then sure, but these people don't buy packs so why would wotc give a shit

  4. #44

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    You have no info about Pioneer at all, the format was announced 2 days ago and we have no tournament results, idk how you can claim anything about what the format is going to be like. If you were instead trying to imply that legacy attracts nostalgic boomer-esque complainers who reject any format where you can't play old border cards then sure, but these people don't buy packs so why would wotc give a shit
    Well I know it has an even smaller card pool than Modern and I know it won't have brainstorm and fetches and won't have daze and force.

    It seems safe to assume, therefore, that it will be a format where you cast your 1-mana spell turn 1, your 2-mana spell turn 2 and so on.... Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see why I would be since this is how Modern works and this new format will have a more restricted card pool so where is the room for it to be any more interesting?

    I'm implying that Legacy players want a more complex game with a high level of decision-making, which is what Legacy offers that Modern and Standard don't.

  5. #45

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    Well I know it has an even smaller card pool than Modern and I know it won't have brainstorm and fetches and won't have daze and force.

    It seems safe to assume, therefore, that it will be a format where you cast your 1-mana spell turn 1, your 2-mana spell turn 2 and so on.... Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see why I would be since this is how Modern works and this new format will have a more restricted card pool so where is the room for it to be any more interesting?

    I'm implying that Legacy players want a more complex game with a high level of decision-making, which is what Legacy offers that Modern and Standard don't.
    Modern has this problem because the threats are insane (and varied, must be attacked in different ways) and the interaction is wack by comparison

    What if your 1 mana spell is thoughtseize and your 2 mana spell is abrupt decay and you can't die on turn 3 and don't need a SB for 20 different decks? There's no reason this format would necessarily be linear

  6. #46
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I have my own opinions about that. I think in a format as deep as Legacy, the playing field levels dramatically. Whether people want to believe Legacy is solved or not doesn't matter - most people have their favorite deck and know it well. Some, extremely well. Because the power level of cards in Legacy is intrinsically much higher than its contemporaries, I believe this handicaps skill as a tool for "pro" players to lean on because of the wide variety of curve balls that exist in Legacy. This is why I love the format more than any other: you're not playing in a format with a rotating card pool and shipping cards for peanuts when they're illegal to play.

    I'm not saying there aren't skilled players that are on the "Pro" Tour that can't play Legacy. What I'm saying is that there are so many variables that exist in the format that continuity of cashing or Top 8'ing is so much harder because of the nature of the format, and I don't think they like that. That in turn sort of drifts the "support cloud" away from the format - not because of cost - but because they don't see a way to gain any competitive edge with longevity or continuity.
    I agree, generally, with your thesis here, but there are some of the finer point that I slightly disagree with. I do agree that the higher, general power level of cards in Legacy, does mean that "strategic diversity" is higher in Legacy than in any other format. While Legacy is somewhat homogenous in a certain sense, it is also diverse within that. Like in Vintage, where decks can be vastly homogenous, but changing even just 8 cards from one deck to another could lead to a notably different strategic paradigm. I don't think most "Pros" like this, because it makes it harder to "know" just what it is your opponent is up to.

    Also, I think part of the power-level is also why "Pros" don't like Legacy or Vintage. Because higher-power level means that there can be more variance and slightly less opportunity to capitalize on opponent's suboptimal play. Because, to use an extreme example from Vintage, you can totally misplay a game, draw Tinker and just win. I think most Pro players would see this as a strict negative. We see it as "fun."

    Also, I agree, that to be "good at Legacy" takes a sort of dedication to the format that Pro players are not really interested in, especially because the format is not "monetized" through events like Modern and Standard are. So, in their analysis, skills for Legacy don't "pay." And, in a sense, they are probably right.
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  7. #47
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    I was scrolling through various forums and the predicted decks (which will probably change but whatever) are:

    BGw Midrange
    UWB Control or Tempo
    BGU Tempo
    Burn
    Affinity
    Ascendancy
    Aetherworks
    Copycat Combo
    Hardened Scales
    Collected Company
    Monoblue Control/Tempo
    Monoblack Control/Tempo
    UR Thing In Ice/Arclight Phoenix

    Black with Bitterblossom (edit - nvm on this, not legal) and Thoughtseize are considered some of the best remaining spells in the format, and everyone wants to play with DTT or TC, so BU decks may be over represented initially, especially as Thoughtseize may be needed to deal with the CopyCat combo.

    Overall looks like a solid metagame, enough variety between Tempo/Control/Midrange, probably not enough Combo though, but the combo that does exist looks very strong in this enviornment (CopyCat, Ascendancy, Aetherworks). So it might end up being Combo Vs. Thoughtseize Tempo/Control Decks Vs. Aggro that beats Thoughtseize Tempo/Control Decks.
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  8. #48

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuggo View Post
    So is this new format an admission that Modern will just never be a good format so they're starting again?
    It's more an attack on legacy, and gives them full control over the availability of all competitive formats.

  9. #49

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Also, I agree, that to be "good at Legacy" takes a sort of dedication to the format that Pro players are not really interested in, especially because the format is not "monetized" through events like Modern and Standard are. So, in their analysis, skills for Legacy don't "pay." And, in a sense, they are probably right.
    This is all you can really conclude, 'pros' (MPL etc) dont play legacy day-in-day-out because they have no incentive.

    A lot of them (BBD, Mengucci etc) have said they really enjoy it (and the record shows they're pretty good at it) but they have no reason to play it on a regular basis. I hard disagree with some kind of idea that there's no place to leverage skill in legacy because there are too many powerful cards, that's nonsense.

    [@Cire Bitterblossom is not legal right? Lorwyn block is too old and modern masters doesn't count]

  10. #50
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    [@Cire Bitterblossom is not legal right? Lorwyn block is too old and modern masters doesn't count]
    Yep - I scrolled through MTGsally and reddit and people keep making the same mistake I did when it comes to the Modern Masters and "eternal" legal sets.
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  11. #51
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I hard disagree with some kind of idea that there's no place to leverage skill in legacy because there are too many powerful cards, that's nonsense.
    That's not what I was trying to say. Or what MK was trying to say either, I don't think.

    "Less" does not equal "no" in any sense. Less opportunity to capitalize on suboptimal play doesn't mean you can't, it just means it occurs less often and so is "harder" to do. There is plenty of skill to playing Legacy. If there wasn't, we would not consistently see the same players do well, but we do.

    But those players generally are more "tuned" to Legacy, as in, sorts of Legacy-specific knowledge and skill sets, not just "general optimal play" ones. Again, nothing presupposes that just being good at Magic means you can't be good at Legacy. You can. Just that it is likely the case that "good at Legacy" involves skill sets designed more specifically to Legacy.
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  12. #52

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Burn
    Affinity
    I question Burn being a thing, because the creature options are way better than the burn spells, so something like Sligh would make more sense.

    Also, what does Pioneer Affinity even look like?

  13. #53

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Yep - I scrolled through MTGsally and reddit and people keep making the same mistake I did when it comes to the Modern Masters and "eternal" legal sets.
    Yeah, I keep wanting to build around modern horizons cards like Scale Up that aren't legal.

    It seems like there's room for some kind of ramp deck with Hydroid Krassis or taking turns with Nexus of Fate.

  14. #54
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I question Burn being a thing, because the creature options are way better than the burn spells, so something like Sligh would make more sense.

    Also, what does Pioneer Affinity even look like?
    I think they are misnamed affinity, they are mostly just artifact creature decks. The decks that I saw being kicked around didn't seem to have any affinity cards. They either go the Aggro Artifact route with lots of cheap artifacts (Smugglers Copter, Steel Overseer, Hope of Ghirapur, Bomat Courier, Onrithopter, Mutavault) with Toolcraft Exemplar,Ghostfire Blade, Ensoul Artifact along with Spring Leaf Drum and even Emry, Lurker of the Loch or go Artifact Creatures with +1/+1 counters/hardened Scale route.

    Burn also may be misnamed, because many of the lists I see people kicking around have around 16+ creatures and seem more like "Red Prowess" (Monestery Swiftspear, Bomat Courier, Eidolon of the great Revel, Soul-Scar Mage, Abbot of Keral Keep)

    Edit - also people are trying to port Golos/Field into the format as well.
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  15. #55
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Burn also may be misnamed, because many of the lists I see people kicking around have around 16+ creatures and seem more like "Red Prowess" (Monestery Swiftspear, Bomat Courier, Eidolon of the great Revel, Soul-Scar Mage, Abbot of Keral Keep)
    Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to call a deck Burn when Lightning Bolt isn't even legal. I did see CalebD playing a Rg version of Prowess last night though, much like that, plus Atarka's Command.
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  16. #56

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I think they are misnamed affinity, they are mostly just artifact creature decks. The decks that I saw being kicked around didn't seem to have any affinity cards. They either go the Aggro Artifact route with lots of cheap artifacts (Smugglers Copter, Steel Overseer, Hope of Ghirapur, Bomat Courier, Onrithopter, Mutavault) with Toolcraft Exemplar,Ghostfire Blade, Ensoul Artifact along with Spring Leaf Drum and even Emry, Lurker of the Loch or go Artifact Creatures with +1/+1 counters/hardened Scale route.
    Ah, so keeping up the Modern tradition.

  17. #57

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Rood View Post
    Right off the bat. Treasure Cruise and Dig need to be gone. There are plenty of ways to abuse this. These cards have proven to be too powerful in any format.
    "Any format"? Treasure Cruise didn't even see much play in Standard. Dig Through Time was a big deal, but not really any more of a big deal than Sphinx's Revelation was from what I remember. And they were in a Standard that did have fetchlands (which Pioneer will not).

  18. #58
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    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Ah, so keeping up the Modern tradition.
    Well, I remember there was much consternation from people when they started calling Modern "Affinity" decks "Robots" instead. Despite having essentially zero Affinity cards in the decks, people like that name better than any of the usual alternatives.
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  19. #59

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    I question Burn being a thing, because the creature options are way better than the burn spells, so something like Sligh would make more sense.

    Also, what does Pioneer Affinity even look like?
    Emery Ascendancy with any random 0 cost crap artifacts you can cobble together. But that can just as easily be called an Outcome deck.

    Example: https://i.redd.it/1xt1qajltcu31.jpg

  20. #60

    Re: New Format announced - Pioneer

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    That's not what I was trying to say. Or what MK was trying to say either, I don't think.

    "Less" does not equal "no" in any sense. Less opportunity to capitalize on suboptimal play doesn't mean you can't, it just means it occurs less often and so is "harder" to do.
    Fine, I disagree with this weaker statement as well (that legacy has "less opportunity to capitalize on ...")

    There is plenty of skill to playing Legacy. If there wasn't, we would not consistently see the same players do well, but we do.
    Agree

    But those players generally are more "tuned" to Legacy, as in, sorts of Legacy-specific knowledge and skill sets, not just "general optimal play" ones. Again, nothing presupposes that just being good at Magic means you can't be good at Legacy. You can. Just that it is likely the case that "good at Legacy" involves skill sets designed more specifically to Legacy.
    Yeah but legacy isn't unique in this regard, you can say the same thing about standard / modern / limited formats also. If you hand me a standard deck and ask me to go play a tournament I won't have any idea what I'm doing. So my position is the same as before: pro players only lack this legacy-specific knowledge because they don't play the format much, because they have no incentive to. Legacy has no intrinsic quality that either makes it more difficult to grok or provide less opportunity to leverage skill/ability

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