New Format announced - Pioneer

[Rood]

TC and DTT (and DRS) were proven too powerful in formats with fetches and cantrips to fuel the graveyard. Pioneer doesn't have any of them.

A few people at my local meta are saying the same thing...I'm not overly convinced that Delve isn't going to be busted in this format. We'll have to wait and see the verdict on alot of the legal cards right now but as of right now there are many cards I forsee Wizards having to address going forward if they want a balanced competitive format.

[FTW]

Still, Dig seems pretty good, even if not totally broken.

Todd's deck seems high variance and slow to get off the ground running. A lot of the time DTT is dead or too slow for him. His only cheap cantrips are Opt and cycling Censor, which seems fair. Overall Glimmer of Genius looks better in his deck. DTT is amazing lategame, especially cast for free off Gearhulk, but that's how expensive draw spells always are.

Dig seems good but not broken. TC would be bad in his deck. He's correct to run 0.

Marvelworks, Felidar, Smuggler's Copter and a few other cards look like bigger problems than DTT.

[H]

Todd's deck seems high variance and slow to get off the ground running. A lot of the time DTT is dead or too slow for him. His only cheap cantrips are Opt and cycling Censor, which seems fair. Overall Glimmer of Genius looks better in his deck. DTT is amazing lategame, especially cast for free off Gearhulk, but that's how expensive draw spells always are.

Dig seems good but not broken. TC would be bad in his deck. He's correct to run 0.

Marvelworks, Felidar, Smuggler's Copter and a few other cards look like bigger problems than DTT.

Yeah, I think Dig might dominate mid-range and "control" matchups. If you don't combo or aggro them early, it will be hard to beat the late-game that Dig can open up. Of course, there is a great deal left to be "decided." I even just caught the end of a GU Oko-Leyline of Abundance deck 5-0 a league. It didn't even look all that good most of the time, but there is so much up in the air that anything even half-reasonable can put up results right now.

[rufus]

Slower games means more time to build up the graveyard for treasure cruise, so I don't think the mana efficiency of the other cards matters that much.

Assuming an undisrupted Copycat or Aetherwork combo, Pioneer is still a Turn 4 format . . . granted consistency wouldn't be the same as Modern, but it's not like the format will be that much slower?

Edit - thinking further of how to disrupt these combos: The main decent answers seem to be Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay, Assassin’s Trophy, Cyclonic Rift, and Pithing Needle. Maybe even Anguished Unmaking or Detention Sphere? In terms of decent counters Pioneer has Dovin’s Veto, Negate, Spell Pierce, Mystical Dispute (?).

Dig and Treasure Cruise aren't great in decks that don't play a lot of cards before winning, and they aren't great in decks that have better ways to use cards in the graveyard. My guess is that they'll get caught up in the first or second wave of bans.

[Cire]

Dig and Treasure Cruise aren't great in decks that don't play a lot of cards before winning, and they aren't great in decks that have better ways to use cards in the graveyard. My guess is that they'll get caught up in the first or second wave of bans.

Not sure how that was in reference to my comment?

I was just recognizing that there are already two well known combos in the format. The combos are without acceleration and without opposing distribution turn 4 combos. Given that the format doesn't have great draw spells consistency in the combos will be an issue, but turn 4 should be considered the Win-or-Die turn. Modern is a bit faster, but it is also considered a Turn 4 format. I was just trying to show that it doesn't seem that pioneer will be slower, in the sense that a player could win around the same turn a Modern player could win, just slower, in the sense that without draw combo's will take longer to assemble.

[rufus]

Not sure how that was in reference to my comment?

The forum doesn't show nested quotes. I made an edit to add it for context. I thought it was still in the context of "are treasure cruise and dig throug time going to be problem cards?"

[FTW]

The combos are without acceleration and without opposing distribution turn 4 combos. Given that the format doesn't have great draw spells consistency in the combos will be an issue, but turn 4 should be considered the Win-or-Die turn. Modern is a bit faster, but it is also considered a Turn 4 format.

Aside from combo, there's also just aggro. Sligh should be able to goldfish in 4-5 turns. This should be a turn 4-5 format, just without the broken combos and tier 1 cards from Modern.

[Lava Snacks]

Speaking of combos: ya know how WotC doesn't test cards with Legacy, Vintage and Modern in mind, for potential combos and whatnot--just Standard and Limited--is there any indication if they'll incorporate Pioneer in their new card testing? Thinking you can keep degenerate combo out through carefulness and without answers is futile anyway, but I'm curious if they're gonna test with the format in mind.

[Barook]

Speaking of combos: ya know how WotC doesn't test cards with Legacy, Vintage and Modern in mind, for potential combos and whatnot--just Standard and Limited--is there any indication if they'll incorporate Pioneer in their new card testing? Thinking you can keep degenerate combo out through carefulness and without answers is futile anyway, but I'm curious if they're gonna test with the format in mind.

Pretty sure they're not going to test for Pioneer.

[Ronald Deuce]

A format front-loaded with a banlist that doesn't include mechanically nonfunctional cards or literal automobile vouchers holds no interest for me.

I hope Wizzerds will stop catering to the censorious bullshit of the neophytes someday, but evidently that's a fool's hope.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

A format front-loaded with a banlist that doesn't include mechanically nonfunctional cards or literal automobile vouchers holds no interest for me.

I hope Wizzerds will stop catering to the censorious bullshit of the neophytes someday, but evidently that's a fool's hope.

Waiter, I ordered wedge salad.

[(nameless one)]

No Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Sharpshooter, Mogg War Marshal, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Chieftain, Goblin King, Mad Auntie ... and no Lackey or WInstigator. There's much less payoff for Goblin Tribal.

No lords hurts a lot. Maybe you could build something like this:


//Goblins: 29
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Frenzied Goblin
4 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Legion Warboss
3 Volley Veteran
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Goblin Ringleader is legal as its reprinted in M20. Mogg War Marshal can be subbed with Goblin Instigator. Mogg Fanatic can be subbed with Fanatical Firebrand but I don't think that card is good in the format. If anything, Foundry Street Denizen can push early damage faster.

For lords, you have Goblin Warchief. There is also Goblin Trashmaster.

Not having Goblin Matron does suck.

I was thinking of running Goblin like it was back in Onslaught Standard/Extended. In the early game, you can just spam the board and go all in on attacks. Then lategame, you Patriarch's Bidding. You can use Rally the Ancestor as a stand in.

[Cire]

FYI first 5-0 Pioneer decklists have been reported: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2019-10-28. (Note: there are a lot of lists, as a brand new format I doubt any of these are optimized or the metagame has solidified in any way).

Some Notes:

• Oko, Thief of Crowns, Teferi, Time Raveler and Smuggler's Copter show up in 20+ decks.
• 10+ Copycat decks.
• Only one deck with Aetherwork Marvel
• Thoughtsieze and Veil of Summer show up on mostpeople's 75.
• A lot of devotion decks running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.
• About 20ish lists with Tireless Tracker.
• Most common answers looks like Pithing Needle, Rest in Peace, Fatal Push, Abrupt Decay and Declaration in Stone.

Edit:

going down the list of other "banned cards"

Treasure Cruise - shows up in 10 decks
Dig Through Time - shows up in 22 decks
Deathrite Shaman - shows up in 5 decks
Reflector Mage - shows up in 16 decks
Attune with Aether - shows up in 6 decks
Rogue Refiner - shows up in 2 decks
Ramunap Ruins - shows up in 11 decks
Rampaging Ferocidon - shows up in 13 decks
Field of the dead - shows up in 3 decks
Emerakul the promised end - shows up in 5 decks

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

FYI first 5-0 Pioneer decklists have been reported: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...gue-2019-10-28. (Note: there are a lot of lists, as a brand new format I doubt any of these are optimized or the metagame has solidified in any way).

Some Notes:

• Oko, Thief of Crowns, Teferi, Time Raveler and Smuggler's Copter show up in 20+ decks.
• 10+ Copycat decks.
• Only one deck with Aetherwork Marvel
• Thoughtsieze and Veil of Summer show up on mostpeople's 75.
• A lot of devotion decks running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx.
• About 20ish lists with Tireless Tracker.
• Most common hate looks like Pithing Needle, Rest in Peace, Abrupt Decay and Declaration in Stone.

Marvel is bugged on MTGO right?

[FTW]

Going through the lists, there are few Treasure Cruises and DTTs even compared to the number of Sphinx's Revelation, let alone Collected Company, Once Upon a Time, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Search for Azcanta. The format has stronger draw fixing. Doesn't look broken to me.

And that's with a whole team of pros purposely trying to break DTT. The few 5-0 decks that ran it are slow control decks with self-mill engines like Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. Seems like a fair use of the card. Some decks opted to run 0 DTT and play Sphinx's Revelation instead.

[morgan_coke]

From playing some Pioneer on MTGO, I fear the format will be a hellscape of Oko and other 3 mana 'walkers until more Elderspell level hosers get printed in every color. Also, completely and totally fuck Veil of Summer. That card is flat out a mistake.

Also, Oko+Heart of Kiran is exactly as garbage as you'd expect.

[Barook]

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/st...74044722024449

First bannings on Monday - isn't it a bit too early for that?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/st...74044722024449

First bannings on Monday - isn't it a bit too early for that?

About two weeks ahead of schedule

[Cire]

About two weeks ahead of schedule

For the curious - felidar guardian, oath of nissa, leyline of abundance are now banned. https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...announcement?s

[jmlima]

This is going to be another crap fest like 1v1 commander on mtgo was (is?).