We've done this for years here though. I don't disagree with the fact that fetches, when fetchable duals exist, are essentially optimal. I don't disagree with the fact that fetches reduce diversity. I don't disagree that fetches make some cards vastly better (Brainstorm, Delve spells).
I just disagree that these are things that should be acted upon with bans in Legacy.
Now, this Pioneer format, I do agree that if it had fetches, it would be sort of "worthless" right out of the gate, to me. Any format really worth playing (to me) needs an evident sort of Aristotelian "Final Cause." This is why Standard, and to some extent Modern, hold no interest to me. Because Modern's is just a shadow of Legacy and Standard's is just arbitrary "newness," in my opinion.
Consider how the casual formats of Middle School and PreModern have the same card pool, that is, we could say the same "material cause" but via the very different ban lists, have divergent "final causes" in how they actually play out.
Now, the question of if this format is actually interesting to play, well, I have no idea. And there is almost no chance I actually play it. But it at least is interesting to me in the intellectual sense.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I have my own opinions about that. I think in a format as deep as Legacy, the playing field levels dramatically. Whether people want to believe Legacy is solved or not doesn't matter - most people have their favorite deck and know it well. Some, extremely well. Because the power level of cards in Legacy is intrinsically much higher than its contemporaries, I believe this handicaps skill as a tool for "pro" players to lean on because of the wide variety of curve balls that exist in Legacy. This is why I love the format more than any other: you're not playing in a format with a rotating card pool and shipping cards for peanuts when they're illegal to play.
I'm not saying there aren't skilled players that are on the "Pro" Tour that can't play Legacy. What I'm saying is that there are so many variables that exist in the format that continuity of cashing or Top 8'ing is so much harder because of the nature of the format, and I don't think they like that. That in turn sort of drifts the "support cloud" away from the format - not because of cost - but because they don't see a way to gain any competitive edge with longevity or continuity.
You have no info about Pioneer at all, the format was announced 2 days ago and we have no tournament results, idk how you can claim anything about what the format is going to be like. If you were instead trying to imply that legacy attracts nostalgic boomer-esque complainers who reject any format where you can't play old border cards then sure, but these people don't buy packs so why would wotc give a shit
Well I know it has an even smaller card pool than Modern and I know it won't have brainstorm and fetches and won't have daze and force.
It seems safe to assume, therefore, that it will be a format where you cast your 1-mana spell turn 1, your 2-mana spell turn 2 and so on.... Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see why I would be since this is how Modern works and this new format will have a more restricted card pool so where is the room for it to be any more interesting?
I'm implying that Legacy players want a more complex game with a high level of decision-making, which is what Legacy offers that Modern and Standard don't.
Modern has this problem because the threats are insane (and varied, must be attacked in different ways) and the interaction is wack by comparison
What if your 1 mana spell is thoughtseize and your 2 mana spell is abrupt decay and you can't die on turn 3 and don't need a SB for 20 different decks? There's no reason this format would necessarily be linear
I agree, generally, with your thesis here, but there are some of the finer point that I slightly disagree with. I do agree that the higher, general power level of cards in Legacy, does mean that "strategic diversity" is higher in Legacy than in any other format. While Legacy is somewhat homogenous in a certain sense, it is also diverse within that. Like in Vintage, where decks can be vastly homogenous, but changing even just 8 cards from one deck to another could lead to a notably different strategic paradigm. I don't think most "Pros" like this, because it makes it harder to "know" just what it is your opponent is up to.
Also, I think part of the power-level is also why "Pros" don't like Legacy or Vintage. Because higher-power level means that there can be more variance and slightly less opportunity to capitalize on opponent's suboptimal play. Because, to use an extreme example from Vintage, you can totally misplay a game, draw Tinker and just win. I think most Pro players would see this as a strict negative. We see it as "fun."
Also, I agree, that to be "good at Legacy" takes a sort of dedication to the format that Pro players are not really interested in, especially because the format is not "monetized" through events like Modern and Standard are. So, in their analysis, skills for Legacy don't "pay." And, in a sense, they are probably right.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I was scrolling through various forums and the predicted decks (which will probably change but whatever) are:
BGw Midrange
UWB Control or Tempo
BGU Tempo
Burn
Affinity
Ascendancy
Aetherworks
Copycat Combo
Hardened Scales
Collected Company
Monoblue Control/Tempo
Monoblack Control/Tempo
UR Thing In Ice/Arclight Phoenix
Black with Bitterblossom (edit - nvm on this, not legal) and Thoughtseize are considered some of the best remaining spells in the format, and everyone wants to play with DTT or TC, so BU decks may be over represented initially, especially as Thoughtseize may be needed to deal with the CopyCat combo.
Overall looks like a solid metagame, enough variety between Tempo/Control/Midrange, probably not enough Combo though, but the combo that does exist looks very strong in this enviornment (CopyCat, Ascendancy, Aetherworks). So it might end up being Combo Vs. Thoughtseize Tempo/Control Decks Vs. Aggro that beats Thoughtseize Tempo/Control Decks.
This is all you can really conclude, 'pros' (MPL etc) dont play legacy day-in-day-out because they have no incentive.
A lot of them (BBD, Mengucci etc) have said they really enjoy it (and the record shows they're pretty good at it) but they have no reason to play it on a regular basis. I hard disagree with some kind of idea that there's no place to leverage skill in legacy because there are too many powerful cards, that's nonsense.
[@Cire Bitterblossom is not legal right? Lorwyn block is too old and modern masters doesn't count]
That's not what I was trying to say. Or what MK was trying to say either, I don't think.
"Less" does not equal "no" in any sense. Less opportunity to capitalize on suboptimal play doesn't mean you can't, it just means it occurs less often and so is "harder" to do. There is plenty of skill to playing Legacy. If there wasn't, we would not consistently see the same players do well, but we do.
But those players generally are more "tuned" to Legacy, as in, sorts of Legacy-specific knowledge and skill sets, not just "general optimal play" ones. Again, nothing presupposes that just being good at Magic means you can't be good at Legacy. You can. Just that it is likely the case that "good at Legacy" involves skill sets designed more specifically to Legacy.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Yeah, I keep wanting to build around modern horizons cards like Scale Up that aren't legal.
It seems like there's room for some kind of ramp deck with Hydroid Krassis or taking turns with Nexus of Fate.
I think they are misnamed affinity, they are mostly just artifact creature decks. The decks that I saw being kicked around didn't seem to have any affinity cards. They either go the Aggro Artifact route with lots of cheap artifacts (Smugglers Copter, Steel Overseer, Hope of Ghirapur, Bomat Courier, Onrithopter, Mutavault) with Toolcraft Exemplar,Ghostfire Blade, Ensoul Artifact along with Spring Leaf Drum and even Emry, Lurker of the Loch or go Artifact Creatures with +1/+1 counters/hardened Scale route.
Burn also may be misnamed, because many of the lists I see people kicking around have around 16+ creatures and seem more like "Red Prowess" (Monestery Swiftspear, Bomat Courier, Eidolon of the great Revel, Soul-Scar Mage, Abbot of Keral Keep)
Edit - also people are trying to port Golos/Field into the format as well.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Emery Ascendancy with any random 0 cost crap artifacts you can cobble together. But that can just as easily be called an Outcome deck.
Example: https://i.redd.it/1xt1qajltcu31.jpg
Fine, I disagree with this weaker statement as well (that legacy has "less opportunity to capitalize on ...")
AgreeThere is plenty of skill to playing Legacy. If there wasn't, we would not consistently see the same players do well, but we do.
Yeah but legacy isn't unique in this regard, you can say the same thing about standard / modern / limited formats also. If you hand me a standard deck and ask me to go play a tournament I won't have any idea what I'm doing. So my position is the same as before: pro players only lack this legacy-specific knowledge because they don't play the format much, because they have no incentive to. Legacy has no intrinsic quality that either makes it more difficult to grok or provide less opportunity to leverage skill/abilityBut those players generally are more "tuned" to Legacy, as in, sorts of Legacy-specific knowledge and skill sets, not just "general optimal play" ones. Again, nothing presupposes that just being good at Magic means you can't be good at Legacy. You can. Just that it is likely the case that "good at Legacy" involves skill sets designed more specifically to Legacy.
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